Both power windows go up and down very slowly, but both work. No grinding or clicking or anything, just go up and down really slowly - especially the passenger side.

Does anybody have experience with this? Is it most likely the motor or the regulator? Is there a good way to test either? I was planning on purchasing a motor and if that didn't take care of it, go with a regulator. However, a popular Camaro vendor (sorry, not sure how this forum feels about posting vendor names) is selling a combination motor/regulator for both sides relatively cheaply (at least compared to buying everything individually) so I'm not sure if it makes sense to buy a motor by itself.

 

Common problem. Before you get too carried away with buying/replacing anything, remove the door panel and thoroughly clean and relube moving parts. You'll no doubt see improvement. That said, the windows were never fast, especially compared to today's models.

JamesC

 

this is a common problem, they say if you grease the window track it works sometimes

 

There is a special lube for electric window runners that you get in a spray can.

Works wonders, but you might have wait a couple of days for the lube to soak in and work.

 

I'd suggest white lithium grease.

JamesC

 

Are there any motors compatable with our cars which are as fast as current cars?

 

Great, thanks for all of the info. Door panels are already off, I'll clean and lube it all up and see how it goes.

Thanks again.

 

Not that I'm aware of. Been thinking of installing the DEI 530T, to make life a bit easier.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/elec...ing-guide.html

JamesC

 

I've been looking at that myself. Still deciding if I want to retain the stock switches or get something different to install in the overhead console.

 

has anyone tryed running a ten guage wire from the battery to the window switch?

 

Ive tried many different types of grease/lubricants over the years.Nothing works worth removing the door panel.That said.......

Best "solution" ive found is to spray brake cleaner in a service port/breather in the plastic just above the connector.Spraying the inside til the window almost slows to a crawl.Then remove the red tube while still working the window up/down.This will flush dried out grease/dirt in the motor.After cleaning, a little bit of WD keeps things lubed.It took 2-3 flushing over the course of a several months.Since eventually the window slowed down again (ea. time less than the previous), but the last time i did was almost a year ago & its barely changed since.

Hardest part is getting the red tube (from the nozzle) in the port.As the hole is the same size as the tube & you cant see the port at all.You have to do it by feel, but it works better than grease.In fact Im almost certain grease makes it worse.As the grease (in the regulator/track) dries out & thickens over time.I used Dupont chain lube on the tracks last time.

 

Yep. Ran 8ga wire to new relays located at the door looms. Went from 12 sec up or down to about 3-4 sec. I was measuring about 9 - 9.5 volt at the doors, the larger cable got me past 12v.

Still not lightning, but a vast improvement. If I ever bother to pull the door cards off again and clean stuff, might be even better.

 

Clean your window tracks, get new motors, check the rollers adjust the tracks... faster power windows... Done!

 

Can I get a little more detail about this (where I need to run the wires and connect them, what type of relay, etc.)? I'm doing some other electric work and this might be worthwhile to do. Any information is appreciated.

Just as a comparison, my driver side window is around 12-13 seconds to roll down, the passenger side is around 16-17.

When I go to clean the tracks, is it worthwhile to remove them like above? I wasn't planning on doing that, but if it's not too hard I'll probably do it.

 

Try this...

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/gen...r-windows.html

 

I have a DEI 530T module. It works great and makes slow windows more bearable!

 

Exactly what I was thinking!

JamesC

 

This module looks great, but sounds like you just wire it in place of the existing window switches. The motor currents are still routed all around the cabin using the existing power cables which are too small in cross section, and produce voltage drops.

I also did this while I was doing some other work, seemed like a good opportunity. Try all the cleaning stuff mentioned above first, it's easier and cheaper. I did all that when I first got the car, but didn't improve the window speed any.

I had my dash completely out when I did this, made things a lot easier. I first did a test with a length of 8ga cable direct from the battery to one of the motor wires at the point where is exits the cabin. Just to see if it made a difference. Boy did it - I decided it was worth formalising with relays and a proper cable run. Be real careful if you do this - sparky and weldy if you were to drop it!

I was completely re-wiring all my power cabling from the battery at the time, due to the PO's mysteries, and ended up with a couple of fused 8ga cables running from the battery and ending at a terminal block inside the cabin.

For the power windows - an 8ga cable goes from there to a new 30A panel mount circuit breaker, which then splits into an 8ga cable runs along the firewall behind the dash, and goes to each door. At each door is mounted 2 x SPDT auto relays, the regular auto-parts shop kind. One for up, one for down.

I then used smaller 30A wire from the 8ga to the spade terminals for the relays, as the 8ga was too unwieldy for this. Also for the grounds. All soldered, no crimping.

The relays simply intercept the factory up/down signals from the switches, and pass the new heavier current on to the motors instead. Installation was a bit of a pita, took a while but the results were worth it. Circuit attached. Might be able to dig up some pics if you like.

EDIT: To the attached circuit - add a fuse, 40-50A, in the +12V feed before the breaker, close to the battery as practical. VERY IMPORTANT extra safety device.

 

Wow. Thanks to everyone for a lot of great information. Of course, I'm just about as confused now as I was before...sometimes internet = overload on information.

Not trying to pit members against each other, but what are the advantages/disadvantages of doing the 8 ga wire way above versus the procedure outlined on the turbobuick forum linked above? I know a decent amount about cars, but not very much about electrical systems and I'm trying to learn.

Also...is there a safe way to "test" the method above before taking the time to wire everything? My current plan is to clean everything thoroughly, then grease it. Once I do that, not sure if I can try this method to see how it works or if I should get a new motor first, etc. Just trying to put together a full strategy before starting the work on Thanksgiving.

Thanks again.

 

Mine was slow and once in a great while would stop working if i rolled it down completely. so i would have to slam the door while pressing up on the button and it would come back on.

I lubricated and did see improvements.
Then i priced new motors and at auto zone there only 25 bucks. So **** yeah i just baught some.

Installation is VERY easy and only took me 30 minutes a door, and ive never done this before. All thats required is drilling 3 Rivits out, 2 in which are behind the door so you do have to make 2 holes about the size of a dime (so when you put the new one on you can screw into the bracket). and thats it.

 

I'm fighting a slow window issue on two cars at the moment. I may try the relay mod.

 

Forgive me for the stupid question(s), but as I said I'm new to doing car electrical:

1) On the electrical diagram, what are the black lines coming out of the bottom of each relay (2 per)? Are those grounds?

2) Do the relays need to be by the doors? Or can they go in the center console, where the switches are? My dash is still in place and it's going to be hard to get these wired by each door.

Thanks.

 

You have asked very good questions.and remember there's always more than one way to skin a cat.
After many years of tests and testing power window circuits,I've found 90%it of most all majority voltage drops even in new pw motors/ circuits accur at/across the pa internal circuit breaker.

 

I did a measurement of the voltage drops across the various components before the door looms, whilst operating the windows. The WDO circuit breaker in the fuse box, the window switches, and all the wiring, accounted for a drop of about a volt each. Decided all 3 had to be removed from the power supply path. This may or may not be the case for others.

1. Yes, those are grounds wired with the fattest normal (non 8ga) cable I had lying around, I think I used 6mm cross-section - remember these have to carry the same currents as the positive side. Just bolted to the chassis nearby.

2. The idea with the ridiculously oversized cable is to reduce the voltage drop, using the shortest run possible. Having the relays at the doors makes the maximum current available for switching. In fact I would have put them in the doors right beside the motors, but didn't want to pull the doors apart at the time. Also running large cable thru the door looms would have been way more hassle and messy.

You could put them in the console, but would them have to make 2 runs of the large cable from the console to each door. Each about 2-3 times longer than what I did. Would work ok I'm sure, just a hassle to install. Adding relays for power switching - always best to put them closest to where the action is.

A word of caution - if you are new to car electrical, this may not be for you. The idea is simple, but the execution is tricky esp for a newb. The big cable is awkward to work with. This is a higher current application involving a seperate cable run to the battery, so everything needs to be soldered and terminated correctly. Twisting wires or crimping will not cut it here, and just introduce more of the small voltage drops you are trying to eliminate. 8ga was just solderable with the large iron I have, with some patience.

You are bypassing the car's normal safety devices - ie fuses and fusible links - with your own fat cable / breaker / fuse which has plenty of potential for causing a fire if you get it wrong. BTW forgot to add another fuse on my circuit before the battery - do that - about 40-50A.

Each of the methods described in this thread attacks a different part of the system - the internal resistance of the motors, the resistance of the wiring leading to the motors, and reducing the mechanical load on the motors. Probably all 3 in concert would produce even better results than 1 alone.

 

I agree there's drop in the wiring but test the "test" port on the motor you will see the most significant drop there.....hot wiring the harness is A very good idea too.but the Dei module mentioned above addresses drop across the switches with isn't an issue IMHO....

 

Even this is a bit tricky for a newcomer. The door loom on the rh side is probably the easiest to access with the dash in, but contortions will be necessary. Off the top of my head:

1. Position window down.

2. Pull the WDO circuit breaker out.

3. Find a figure-8 cable in the loom with a light-blue and a tan wire - this will be the cable to the motor. Extract and cut the blue one. Strip back the insulation from both cut ends a little.

4. Get enough of the biggest cable you can find to reach between the door and the battery. Twist one end on to the blue wire end going into the door.

5. Stick the other end on the + batt terminal. There should be a zap and the rh window should immediately go up. As soon as it's up, pull the wire off the batt immediately. Be ready to judge if it's quicker than before. Might be good to have a helper standing by with a stopwatch.

Remember nothing is fused doing this - DONT short your test cable to ground!

6. Solder the cut ends of the blue wire back together to restore usual function, using heatshrink or at worst electrical tape to restore the insulation.

 

I'll get into the motor test ports the next time I have the doors apart - good to know, wasn't aware of them previously. Also if I had known about the module at the time (2008) I would have looked into that too. I just has a good opportunity at the time - dash out and looms apart - to run big fat wires everywhere, given my observations of the voltage drops.

In my case, the wiring upgrade was enough to give me nicely quick window performance, so I stopped there. It's like anything - the fix will be correcting whatever the problem was.

 

Thanks again for the info - I'll make sure to be careful. I do have some experience with wiring, just not adding relays, etc. Plus, all of the work is being done at my brother's repair shop so I have someone with 30+ years of auto experience close by.

I pulled the first regulator and motor out today. Do you think it's worth checking the voltage at the plug before hooking everything back up or should I just let the speed of the up/down be my guide?

 

Actually, that would be a better initial guide than what I described above - like I said, I noted the voltage drop first, which lead me to do the described 'proof of concept' test with the fat cable.

You will need the motor to be under normal mechanical load, so check the other side that you haven't pulled out yet. I measured the voltage at the door loom inside the cabin, and garyk1970's test port would be even better cause you have access to it.

Mine was down to 9.3-9.5V while the windows were in operation.

 

my windows from the day i drove it off the GM Lot. worked fantastic.

then one night in 1996 i left it out for a night. and sombody broke my pasngr side window out to get $11 out of the ash try.

the nexed day i took it to the well known auto glass place and had them install a brand new window glass.

from that day it ran SLOW! and came to a CREEP. the last 2"inch before closing.. and and also leaked after they did there install.

the car has been locked up in a box for the Last 9 years. and now getting a full going over.. the auto glass plass has a full life time warrranty. and i will be going by to have them look at it..see what they say.. it's only been 16 years..LOL

 

cool i'll pick some up from autozone or something and lub both windows... both of my windows are stuck!!

 

Could someone please help me understand the attached relay diagram in TreeFiddy's post? I've tried multiple times to do this and it doesn't seem to work. I get a spark I can only assume means I'm grounding something that shouldn't be grounded.

Could I be using incorrect relays? They're 5-prong, what seems to be, standard SPDT relays...

Please help.

 

At what point do you get a spark - when you apply batt power, or when you operate a window switch? What sparks and where? Does it pop a fuse/breaker?

 

The spark occurs when I apply battery power. Technically it's when I add the ground to 87a which is the last wire I attempt to hook up. The spark happens at the terminal on the relay. I'm in testing mode so there's no fuse in the system yet but it has enough juice to cause a slight amount of deformation (melting?) to the prong so I'm confident in saying it's grounding out and not just a small spark from making the connection. Still very confused.

 

Not sure if it matters but my relay does not call the center post 87a. It only says 87. I'm sure it's the same thing but since the setup doesn't seem to work I wanted to make sure I mentioned every slight discrepancy.

 

Are the relay terminals 86, 87, 30, 87 and 87a? It should be a standard. Have you wired as per the diagram?

Get a meter and check the relays by themselves, disconnected from the circuit. Test for continuity between 30 and 87a, and open circuit between 30 and 87.

Energise the relays and make sure the continuities flip. I seem to remember coming across a couple of brand-new relays that did not behave correctly in the past, with a permanent short or o/c in the switch terminals, can't remember which. I put it down to the Chinese factor.

 

The relays I have contain the teminals 30, 85, 86, 87 and 87. No 87a. Furthermore, I have no continuity between 30 and either 87 terminal. I was going under the assumption that the terminal 87 in the middle of the relay was 87a just not labeled as such. It would seem I was wrong.... ???

 

Odd, two 87's? Never heard of that, maybe they aren't double throw relays, but single throw with two n/o output terminals.

Is there continuity at all times between the two 87 terminals? If so would explain your spark, with + on one of the 87 terminals and connecting - to the other.

 

Yup! That's exactly what they are! I'm on a quest to find SPDT realys now.... Thatnk you for all of your help so far. I'll let you know what happens after I get the correct relays.

 

Ok. So new problem. The relays we're definitely worng. Thank you for setting me straight on that. I replaced them with SPDT relays and no more shorting! However, the windows don't work.

I now have realized that the window switches do not provide 12+ to the motor when pressed but ground! So, the new question is can this relay setup be reconfigured to provide ground?

 

All I'm trying to do is add a relay to the power window circuit to get more power to the motors.... I thought it would be easy...

 

Heh don't get discouraged, re-engineering stuff is always a minefield, you'll get there! Was a pita for me too.

You've got me thinking - maybe GM changed the power window circuit by 91, just to mess with you. Mine is an 86, circuit below. All motor wires are grounded thru the window switches in the rest position, and the appropriate wire for up/down is then energised by the switch selection.

Does yours have the WDO breaker in the fuse box?

I'd be surprised if the GM circuit was changed that radically but nonetheless - do you have a diagram for your 91?

 

Thanks for the words of support. I'm still hanging in there.

I don't have the schematics in front of me but I believe its exactly the opposite on my car. At rest the wires running to the motor hot. When the button is depressed polarity changes and the motor runs in one direction. This is where I'm running into a problem I think.

The more I think about it the more it seems I'm really over complicating it...

 

Ok, I'm learning here too - it's becoming apparent they made a major change to the power window wiring sometime between 86 and 91.

If the motor wiring is hot in the rest state, GM obviously changed from a positive switching system to a negative. Not sure what the advantage doing this would have been. Unless - they didn't happen to add switching relays as well did they? Or some kind of solid-state module? Would make this exercise redundant.

If not, my circuit can still be made to work. Just wire terminal 86 on each relay to +12v instead of ground, to flip the expected input sense.

 

Ok, here's the update so far. I was completely incorrect about the switches at rest. I'm at home now and have tested them. at rest with the ignition on the leads to the motor are open, neither 12+ or ground. They go nowhere.

When the switch is depressed one lead becomes 12+ and the other ground and vice versa when the switch is pressed in the opposite direction. So it seems the factory wiring is reversing polarity. I'm at a loss for how to add a relay to a system with switching polarity... Any ideas?

 

Oh ok, then it sounds like your factory wiring does behave as expected. That's exactly what the factory switches do - swap the polarity of the motor supply. That's how the up or down is achieved.

That's why I've had to use 2 relays per side instead of one. I've taken control of both motor wires and switch the polarity that way, using the original switch signals as a control reference.

For the purposes of my circuit, your factory window switches are sending +12v signals, as appropriate to the window action you selected.

So, if you have the relays wired correctly, these +12v signals are now being presented to the new relays. The relays aren't operating?

 

So our wiring circuits are the same. Well, that at least helps a little bit.

The relays are opening. Both click as expected. At rest I assume both wires to the motors would be ground and as the button is depressed the output from the activated relay becomes 12+ and operated the window in one direction.

This seems very simple to me but does not seem to be happening. I've checked the wiring multiple times and am at a loss. It seems to be wired correctly. I'll check the output when I get home again to be sure and report back then.

Would a picture or a video be helpful? I may be able to do that.

 

Yep, both factory circuits do sound the same after all.

This is exactly how it works. At rest, all motor wires are connected to ground through their relay's n/c terminal 87a. When selected, the requested relay operates and connect it's wire motor to 12v thru the n/o terminal 87, while the OTHER line remains grounded. This is how the polarity switching occurs.

If the relays are clicking, sounds like the input side of things is working. So - are the terminal 30 wire motor lines going hot when a relay operates?

 

So, I found myself an unused conference room here at work. I sat down and drew the schematic the way I thought it should work. Guess what? I drew the exact same thing as you showed me. There's really no reason at all that the setup shouldn't work. The first thing I'm doing when I get home is re-wiring the relays. I had to have made a mistake. Simple as that!!!

Thank you for all of your help so far. I'll let you know what happens as I 'm sure you know.

 

DONE! I wired the relay per your original instructions and it works perfectly. I have NO idea what I could have been doing wrong but it's good now. Thanks for your help. Now off to add keyless...