Hey i have a question.........

Lets say i buy a Spohn k-member, does that thing just bolt right into the factory k-member holes, or do you have to fab stuff up?

How hard would it be for a guy like me, whose smart, just not car smart, to start prepping a car for a LS1 swap. Im no mechanic, but i have a friend that is becoming one and i know he would be down to help me out.

But if that stuff bolts in, you think i can do it? And does it come with torque specs or should you just already know this? Thanks.

-3rd

 

If you've got the dough to buy all bolt on parts.

If you can man a crane, plug in connectors and thread nuts on a bolt, its simple as anything.

Pretty much every bit of a thirdgen-LS1 swap is avaliable as a bolt on part. Mounts, headers, intakes, fuel, wiring, etc.

K-member is a bolt in.

 

Well, as much as the term "bolt-in" applies to aftermarket parts...

But yeah, if you're reasonably intelligent, & have a buddy who's "car-smart", the swap should be within your abilities. Good luck, have fun with it, & post pics!

 

What does that mean?

Well, as much as the term "bolt-in" applies to aftermarket parts...

Does that mean this stuff doesn't bolt in?

 

It bolts in. They are referring to either A. A bad batch of parts or bad manufacturer. or B. Cars have been wrecked and a part built for a perfect car doesn't quite fit one that has been tweaked.

Personally, my spohn lsx k member bolted in very easily and gives a lot of room to work. I also bought spohns tubular a - arms also. i hear getting springs are a pain to put in. but mine is still in the air, and i'm using air ride. i think they should be easier to install.

 

Okay.

My cars never been in a wreck and im planning on getting the Spohn Tubular K-Member with the coil over option, the tubular a-arms, the trans cross member and the trans torque arm.

IS this stuff pretty simple, but with some muscle and measurement bolts in, then im cool. I just dont know anyone who can weld, so as far as fabbing goes im ****ed.

Im also wondering about the fuel tank. Do i need to get a 4th gen fuel tank aswell to complete this swap, or do i just ahve to get the different fuel pump and run the lines? And is there a set i can buy to just like do it or is this kinda like the fabbing part i need to have some help doing.

-3rd

 

use the sticky above https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...want-swap.html it gives you links to pretty much everything you will need and if not do a search for the issue, chances are it has been covered. There is a wealth of information here. I'm going to be starting on the swap come spring.

 

Well thankfully for me, i live in the southern california valley, so its always sunny out here!!!

But im going to start it probably some time in the next couple months as well.

 

Which means you have to use all of the 4th gen emissions equipment, including the fuel tank. In order to keep the EVAP and tank venting operating, you have to leave the 4th gen's fuel level sender as it is, meaning the 3rd gen gas gauge won't work. Meaning you need to use a 4th gen type gauge, which is most easily accomplished by swapping in a 4th gen dash.

 

dang, really?

But i like the look of my stock 3rd gen cluster? (Their' s probably gonna be no way around this huh)

 

swap out the fuel level sender. i remember seeing that on here somewhere some other cars unit fits and works with third gen gauges

 

That doesn't work!

You need the 4th gen fuel level sender in order for the PCM to operate the EVAP. And, in California, you have to have ALL of the donor car emissions equipment on the receptor car and functioning.

 

well seems you are stuck with doing a dash swap for 4th gen gauges or building a gauge cluster to work with it.

 

Damn....a dash swap would be the last thing i wanted to do, becuase that purely just all electrical.

Can someone recommend me a thread of how to do a 4th gen dash swap.

 

You might be able to modify a gauge to work in the 3rd gen dash. But, I don't recall anyone who has done it. 4th gen dash swap, yes - do a search of this subforum.

 

Okay, okay.

As far as difficulty, how hard is this going to be? I mean i build computers so i have basic knowledge of electrical, but my friend whose training to be the mechanic wont know **** about this. I mean i told him about how majority of the stuff for the swap bolts on and hes cool with that. But this swap kinda seems like a big deal.

 

Ohh and how do i search for a Sub-Forum?

 

The only sane way, IMO, to do a California smog-legal LS1 swap would be with a complete donor car. Most of it then would be a matter of removing from one car and installing in the other.

And keeping track of what you're doing, of course.

 

well of course. I mean i was planning on redoing the whole car with Spohn suspension up front the LS1 and the drive train and the T56 as my tranny. But what smog legal components are not gonna work on my car? Like what would i have to transfer over or upgrade?

 

all of the smog equipment will have to be swapped, evap, AIR, and EGR (no egr if it's a 2000+ LS1) which means the gas tank since the evap is built into it.

I don't think you can use a truck engine, so the 5.3, 6.0 is out

 

so that means that if I buy a set up that's 2000+ then I won't have to switch the egr valve over to my new car, but I'll still have to run the tank because of the evap sensor, correct.

 

In my opinion...in CA, Ide be using EVERYTHING....EVERYTHING...from a donor car. If you use all the wiring from the donor, its all plug and play. No major wiring will be needed.

There is NO way to make the EVAP work without using the 4th gen cluster. Just check out some of my threads...I think I even have one specifically for the EVAP issues. I tried to make it work...no dice.

Since you are building a firebird, you'll need to do some minor wiring with the headlights I believe...thirdgen HVAC wiring is stand alone, and im pretty sure hooking up the 4th gen HVAC has been covered around here a few times.

I keep reading you mention your friend training to be a mechanic... I dont think you need a mechanic to help you. A lot of people on here were serious wrenchers before they took on this swap and they made out fine. You learn as you go. Its the best way. You'll have more skill after you complete this swap than your buddy after a semester of class. Just do some research, read what others have done, then dig in. Wiring is scary...until you get into. Then it starts making sense. If you are handy with tools and have patience, and keep in mind what you read on here, you can do it.

J.

 

Yeah well my biggest fear would be the dash swap and wiring. I know how to use a wrench and stuff, but electrical is what everyone fears. But I know that it doesn't need to be done til this summer so I definately have time. But I'll read up in the mean time. Any chance you can send me a link for those threads about the wiring and if you know one for the fuel lines.

Ohhh btw I was reading people are having clearance with the LS1 and the wiper motors. But since mines a later 3rdgen, I have the smaller motor. What's your take.

 

Just for reference, in regards to EVAP & Fuel sender ohm reading.

You CAN put a 3rd gen 0-90ohm sender in a 4th gen tank.

EVAP controls can be controlled within HPTuners. If you choose to modify your tank in this way, you must change the fuel tank full and empty ohm values in the computer. The computer still needs a fuel level input wire from the tank.

The LS1 4th gen 99-02 dash runs the fuel level off of serial data. Serial data controls RPM, Speed, Odometor, Fuel level, and water temp. Know how i know? Damn solid state logic in my cluster went bad, and those are the gauges i lost

If you manage to get EVAP working, the ohm reading of your fuel sender is not important as long as the PCM still gets the signal, and is edited to know what signal its getting to calculate for EVAP venting.

 

Know how you feel there. I was terrified of electronics, now me and wires are buddys

I put a 96 4th gen dash in my camaro, then a 00, now im contemplating goin back to 3rd gen haha.

4th gen dash isnt alot of work. Wires are for the most part color match. Hardest part is making it look like it was meant to be there. That means door panels, a-pillars, hush panels etc. Thats where its suddenly not so easy. This is what im dealing with now.

 

But the fuel level will still have to be feeding the PCM, which means the fuel gauge needs to be fed via serial data, which means non-3rd gen gauge. To keep the 3rd gen sender would be more work than swapping over all 4th gen tank & gauges.

 

Okay so im going to check the classifieds here for a slvged trans am or ss camaro for that LS1 and the T56.

IF not......im going to be making a lot of trips to the junkyard with my buddy and his little ford ranger to be hauling parts back home.

NOW i feel like im actually doing something to my car versus than just sitting around and paying someone. I have two guys willing to help me, my buddy whose training to be a mechanic and my life long buddy Steve. Even though he pushes a 5.0 LX, hes still down to help any bro wrench.

I will be back here for sure when i need help. What do you suggest i do first, get the dash all in a wired up then drop the engine/tranny in or do the engine tranny first then the dash?

-3rd

 

First thing, I would make sure you can get all the parts to get it going first. You might want to check with a referee to see if they have any tips or ideas or maybe a guide you need to go by for the swap.

 

But would it be extremely necessary for me to get everything at once or just in pieces. What's wrong with me getting my dash in versus me dong it at once.

 

For what you're doing (& need to do) it will be much, MUCH easier for you to buy a complete donor car.

You certainly CAN "piece it together", but believe me, it's more hassle & money than you want to deal with.

 

Trust me... Having a complete donor car sitting right next to your project car is PRICELESS. You will have all the references you need for putting the car back together. See how it came off of the donor? Thats how it needs to go back ON the project car. You will be able to use lots of little odds and ends off the donor. Wiring, nuts and bolts, brackets etc etc. But the most useful part is just seeing how it all is while the donor car is together and working.

Shel...as five7 said...Evap still wont work. The only way it would work 100% with the thirdgen dash would be in to hook up the 4th gen tank as it was in the 4th gen. Wire the fuel level sender to the PCM. THEN install a universal fuel level sender in the tank, and use that to operate your gauge. Effectively having two senders in your tank. I have NO clue what the insides of those tanks look like. I highly doubt having two senders like that is possible. But again, Im not sure.

Ive long since gave up on evap...but I talked to a couple electronic engineers to see what it would take to build a fuel level simulator. Something that would trick the PCM into thinking it as getting a slowly deteriorating fuel level signal. Then have it reset when you fill the tank. This sounded way out of my range of thought process. haha. He knew how to do it...but it just wasnt worth it. It just has to be something that slowly changes resistance from 270 down to 50...or whatever the 4th gen range is...been awhile.

3rdgenred:...see what you can find for a donor. Wiring and fuel lines arent an issue if you have the donor. You are going to be installing the dash and wiring just as it was in the 4th gen. Just a few little changes...and those changes arent things that will keep you from passing emissions. Its things like HVAC that you can sort out later. Fuel lines will have to be hooked up just as they were in the 4th gen. You can mod the 4th gen lines...or build your own. But their placement and where they hook up is exaclty as it was in a 4th gen.

As for your questions about clearence. I dont think wiper motor clearance is a big issue. Rear coil on the passenger side is a problem for most though. It hits the HVAC box. Most of us just moved it up with alittle bracket so it clears. Its something you have to tackle when you get to it, as there are a few different options.

J.

 

I wish I had had a donor car to reference.

I am also not too thrilled about the spohn k-member install, we'll see once I get the exhaust in.

None of it is magic, its all logical, just keep reading and researching until you feel like you "understand" everything you are going to do.

 

Hmmm thats what i need to do then. So just for the fuel lines, the same ones will swap over from the 4th gen to my thirdgen?

 

I used my thirdgen lines, but I also used my thirdgen tank. It was spotless so I had no reason to replace it. I know guys do use the 4th gen tank but I saw no real incentive to do so. My car is an 86 TPI and using the factory lines was very simple, I just needed the right adapter to use -6AN lines.

The 4th gen fuel line is not a direct swap, you will have to modify the lines as you get closer to the engine bay. This is based on my research, not experience.

 

Benefits for the 4th gen plastic tank....as I saw them. It holds alittle more fuel. Its got the exact pump and wiring you need. Sender is the only draw back here. Its got quick disconnects, which I like better than the screw type. If you want to do the trap door mod, you dont need to cut as big a hole, because there are quick disconnects right off the top of the sender. It has a 2 piece filler neck. Which makes removing the tank a TON easier. It wont rust ever (bit of a stretch because none of my metal tanks rusted either).

Not saying sticking with the 3rd gen tank is bad...that works perfectly fine. The biggest reason of all that i went with a 4th gen tank was it was just sitting there in the donor car. No reason not to. And since I used the 4th gen fuel tank bulkhead connector, the tank plugs right in and wiring was cake.

The fuel lines fit pretty well, except for when you get near the front subframe as midnit mentioned. I just used stainless compression unions to reconnect my fuel lines, and they've worked perfect. Ive been thinking about running braided stainless though...because I want to re-route away from the headers better. You just have to start putting the lines in, and cut them where needed. Not too bad of a job.

J.

 

Well, he has to go with a 4th gen tank for the emissions since he's in California.

If you do a search, someone setup a 4th gen tank using the 3rd gen lines, showed how to run everything at the tank.

 

But, if you've got a donor car, just use the 4th gen lines.

 

i have used the PARacing kmember before in a previous ls 3rd gen swap.
i prefer it now, and cheeper than anyone else

 

u can have a 4th gen tank and sender running evap **** with the 3gen dash still in there!all u got to do is make your 4th gen sender in a dual sender ! AND yes its alot easyer then putting in the 4th gen dash in!if u have any mechanical ablity u can do it

 

you can modify the sender by take the sender off the pump and replacing it with a 97 grand prix sender
and by the way our project is in cali, https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...1-rs-vert.html
and check out the last thread

 

Have you gotten the car through the motor change inspection process yet?

 

heres the part number #25319676 and yes it works, i modified it 4-5 months ago, just tested it yesterday and presto works perfect

 

ya sure

 

hey I ran in to this looking at some ls1 swaps
http://www.team3rdgen.com/modules/3r..._fuel_tank.htm
this my help on that sender thing!

 

this is the other page to see all what he did
http://www.team3rdgen.com/modules.php?name=3rdGenLS1

 

Wow this is good news, ill keep you guys posted, right now i got midterms.......*****. If you know anyone with a good donor car and a good running LS1 and T-56 tell me.

 

...thats the only way to get it to work as I stated above. You have to have two senders. I have never seen it done to a thirdgen tank or a 4th gen tank...if you have a write up or something of that nature, Ide like to see it.

Getting the 3rd gen fuel level gauge to work is NOT the issue. That can be done. Its been done a handful of times. The issue is you CAN NOT have a fuel level gauge and EVAP work with only one sender in the car. Unless you know how to make a stock 3rd gen gauge or an aftermarket gauge run off of serial data. Which...hasnt been done yet to my knowledge.

lowerthanyou00: johnnybravo doesnt mention making his EVAP actually function. He knew what he had to do to make the stock gauge work...again, thats not an issue. But , if in CA all the emission parts need to function, he might run into an issue with the EVAP not working. Its going to trip SES codes. If he programs them out, the light wont come on....but I dont know what the referee over there will do check things out. If they simply plug into the computer, check for codes, visually see the equipment....then I guess he'll be ok if he just turns off the codes for EVAP. If the ref has some other way of checking that things are working....that might be a prob.

3rdgenred....good luck on your midterms haha. And dont worry....you'll find a donor/motor. Just keep looking, and the right deal will show up. I got lucky and found my donor on here after only a wanted post in the classifieds. The cars are out there for sure.

 

im building the car, the evap line has been removed, the car was never planned to be smogged, the size of cam/ head swap/ long tube headers/ custom exhaust will add to the fire, sides hes got a smoggable 98z, california will bitch about anything done to the car so y care about smog

 

Why care about it? Cause my cars only a 89, so that means i still gotta get it smogged for another 10 years dude.

 

Here's a half a** fix suggestion. What if you use a switch that will let you choose whether to send the fuel sender signal to either the gauge or the PCM. Would that work? Then maybe you could just flip the switch real quick to see how much gas you have before you switch it back.

I'm trying to get of my buddy who's a computer engineer, to ask him about serial data, cause that stuff is like magic to me. There should be a way to extract the data, and send it through a converter for an analog signal.