V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

(OK, I've *really* been wanting to create this thread for quite a while now, so today I finally said "screw it" & just made the time...)

Anyone doing the research for a Gen-III or Gen-IV swap into one of our cars is always told "You can't use the truck serpentine setup in a thirdgen!". I'm hoping that this thread shows WHY people say that - and, for people like me who are too flippin' stubborn to accept the "generally accepted" wisdom, I hope to show some of the challenges involved in trying to make it work...

(For those wondering why I'd be so mule-headed, & wouldn't just use an F-body serpentine setup like a "normal" human - the engine that I'm swapping in is equipped with variable valve timing [VVT] which requires a deeper front drive to accommodate that, so the F-body setup won't work. And I'm bloody flippin' well going to retain the VVT & make it work! Besides, I generally don't like being told that I have to do something one way...)

OK, here's hoping that a picture IS worth a thousand words...

The first hurdle with trying to use truck accessories in a thirdgen is that 99% of the time, you're going to change the intake manifold from the truck intake to a lower one that will fit under a thirdgen's low hood line - and that's going to put the throttle body right into the same area as part of the alternator & power-steering support bracket. I have a high-speed die grinder, so when I saw where the bracket was interfering with the TB, I said 'No problem', marked the locations & went at it. 20 minutes or so later, this is what I had:


This pic shows the alterations that I made to the bracket so that I could (hopefully!) make it work with the car intake. The arrow shows where I tried to 'taper' part of the bracket when I thought that I had a chance of (mostly) clearing the TB intake tract...

In the pictures below, I've placed green masking tape over the areas that I've trimmed, since I found that those areas generally weren't very easy to see when the bracket is installed. (Having the tape there provides good contrast, and draws the eye right to it, which makes the areas of interference much easier to see.)

The picture above is looking at the main bracket for the truck serpentine drive from above/from the front, with green tape placed over the places where I trimmed it when trying to make it work with the throttle body on the L76 car intake. The small red arrow shows where I tried to 'taper' part of the bracket when I thought that I had a chance of (mostly) clearing the TB intake tract...

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

The picture above is looking from behind at the notch I made in the alternator support bracket (as before, the throttle body has blue tape over it).

Peeking in between the water pump & the throttle body to see another place where I trimmed part of the truck serpentine support bracket in order to make it work with the L76 car intake. The tube you see is the steam vent.

And again, the red arrow shows where I trimmed/tapered the idler pulley support when I thought that there was a chance that it would work with the car intake.

And finally...

*THIS* picture does a good job of showing why people don't use the L76 car intake with the serpentine accessory drive from the truck. When five7kid was over here, we actually DID figure out a way to make it work, but honestly, there really are easier ways to accomplish the same thing...

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

And the last pic (for now):

You can see in this picture that the DBW (electronic) throttle body hits right into the truck's water pump outlet for the upper radiator hose. Just in case the picture doesn't show it clearly, the TB is physically touching the upper radiator hose outlet pipe - in fact, the water pump outlet is slightly indented at that spot, & there's literally not even enough room to fit a hose on.

As mentioned in the post above, we did some brainstorming, & figured out ways around all of the interference points that I've mentioned so far, which had me feeling pretty good - until I realized that the power steering pulley is going to smack right into the steering gearbox...

Back to the drawing board...

(Actually, I believe now that I've got that problem beaten as well, but I need to do some measuring...)

I hope that this info is helpful.

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

DOH!! I very nearly forgot to include my alternator pics!!

Here's another (pretty well-known) challenge when trying to use the truck serpentine setup with our cars - the masking tape shows the height of the stock Firebird hood vs. the height of the stock truck alternator placement...

View of alternator height w/ truck accessory drive setup vs. stock Firebird hood-line (from driver's side).

View of alternator height w/ truck accessory drive setup vs. stock Firebird hood-line (from passenger side).

Like I said before, I hope that this proves helpful.

3.1EyeCandy

iTrader: (3)

I never considered the truck accessories once I acquired my ls1, but I've been following your progress on here and ls1tech. This is great info. Have you read up on the performance truck board connected to ls1tech about what they've done to use the car intake? I know it's a popular swap over there, and most do switch to car accessories...but surely someone has been in your shoes with a VVT engine and wanting the car intake.

Keep it up - I'm hoping we get to see the very first VVT thirdgen emerge on these boards.

3.1EyeCandy

iTrader: (3)

So - what's the plan for the alternator? RA1 hood? I've got one and have been considering swapping back to a stock steel TA hood, just to make it more of a sleeper.

cam-

Could get crafty and make a bulge in the hood there like a TSi Talon has. It would look pretty bitchen too if its doen neatly. Still it seems like a lot more work than its worth to me for the few hundred bucks it costs to buy F-body accessories.

I did see a thread over a tech not long back where a dude had truck accessories in a third gen. Great big mother of a cowl hood on it though

Atilla the Fun

I will be trying the truck accessories in my '84 Trans Am, by keeping the truck intake and accessories I already have, and using the ram air hood from www.americansportscar.com that I expected to use with my 454 until it turned out my 454 block is too freeze-cracked to save.

1987earthquake

iTrader: (5)

That hood still won't clear your alt. The alt sits out wider than a cowl. I have a 4" cowl on my camaro and the alt still hit outside the cowl. I ended up fabbing an alt bracket to use the truck alt but all I run is alt and water pump. I do plan to switch to car accessories to run power steering and ac tho.

SheldonZ28

iTrader: (1)

I probably missed it, but hows the steam line being run?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Clears Rumble's hood.

Tim, you need to post that pic.

Also, Tim, I wonder if it might not just be easier to modify the intake. A fairly simple plastic/fiberglass "repair" to move the TB up.

87CIZ

iTrader: (8)

what about making some type of "S" extension to move the throttle body up and out? problem might be with making flanges for the intake and throttle body though

_
..\ _


something like that but curved lol

SheldonZ28

iTrader: (1)

Possible, but you gotta think of more then placement here.

The intakes are designed to work with airflow frequency's, while it may seem as if the bend is harmless, its entirely possible it could obsruct flow and upset the haronics that the intake is designed to work with.

1987earthquake

iTrader: (5)

He never showed or said it cleared his hood....

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Obstructing flow would have to be carefully avoided. But, the pulse tuning occurs in the runners, not in the plenum.

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

THANKS man, I appreciate it! I wanted this to show the "WHY" so that people who are swapping in the future can see this & understand, before spending the money & effort...

ACTUALLY, I haven't been over there since before I bought this engine, but that's a great idea! It would almost certainly be better for me to check that out (& probably learn something) than to continuously try to re-engineer everything myself...

Thanks - that IS my goal.

Well, I'm hoping to relocate it. Being out of work right now is really putting a crimp in the swap, since ordinarily I'd just run to Lowe's, pick up a bit of raw material & try to make something work...

But I'm right there with ya - if I can run the stock-looking flat hood (ideally a fiberglass one!), then I'm going to try to do that...
You didn't miss it because I hadn't posted anything about it yet. Here's a picture of what I've done:


That was actually something that I was a bit concerned about, because the two other solutions that I'd heard about have major flaws (IMHO):

* Tapping into the water pump is just to me. The way that I learned it, you want to run the steam line to the highest point possible, not down... And eventually you're going to need to swap the water pump out, & then you're drilling & tapping it all over again.

* Tapping a new fitting into the radiator would be great, IF we had "normal" metal radiators, but since our end-tanks are plastic, it seemed to me like it was just a matter of time until that failed.

I'd actually planned on using a tee fitting like this into the upper radiator hose, but when I read the blurb below & saw how closely the heater hose runs to the steam line fitting, well, it was a total no-brainer...

I wish that I'd copied down who wrote the above so that I could give 'em credit for it, but I didn't... (I actually had to order that PN - it's for a F*rd - but it looks like it's going to work just fine...)

I hope this helps someone.

Atilla the Fun

Thanks for sharing all the info. In my case, theRamAir hood's raised part is wider than a Camaro cowl-induction hood, and keept getting wider as it goes back, so I'll try it anyway. Pics when I do.

87CIZ

iTrader: (8)

something else triggered my mind to work... On one of the many Fbody sites I read, could be this one? I seen where someone used a different style waterpump and it cleared the throttle body well only had to put a dent in something to clear a stud..... i wish i could remember where it was. i'd say here or ls1tech.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Won't work in this case. He needs to use this water pump in order to clear the VVT that sticks out farther than other cam drives.

Atilla the Fun

I got it. Just get a clear poly hood. Show that thing off, rather than any necessary bulges.

87CIZ

iTrader: (8)

i'm not sure how much room you can go forward but they make throttle body spacers that would move your throttle body out far enough it may allow you to get the hose on. But then you may have a problem with your air intake being to close to radiator or such... I'd have to see it in person i think to brainstorm. i'm slowly getting to that point.

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

Tim your progress is looking really good! This thread makes much more sense to me than our conversation over the phone. I need to come down and see this in person.... soon enough I will be back on the road!

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

I guess sometimes I only THINK that I'm coherent/understandable...

Cool, just give me a call any time you want to swing by! (Seriously.) WE'LL chill a couple beers & grill some brats/burgers, & YOU can bring some tools!! (Naaah, on 2nd thought, I'll just load the GTA & the remaining parts onto a trailer & bring it up to your shop so that we can use one of the lifts!!)

BADNBLK

iTrader: (11)

I'm into it!! Give me a shout with a few days notice when your starting a project where you need a couple extra hands, and I'll come on down.

87CIZ

iTrader: (8)

this guy didnt mention anything about the water pump spacing being different between the ls1 and lq engine http://www.ls1truck.com/forums/front...take-swap.html

that's the article i saw a while back. i don't know if it will help you or not. but just showing you what the truck guys are doing.

edit: on page 8 he mentions that you can either pull the pulley out to match or just pull off the pulley and swap on the truck pulley
http://www.ls1truck.com/forums/front...tml#post143828

edit 2: Someone makes spacers for the water pump now http://www.ls1truck.com/forums/mecha...tml#post241125

T TA 355

I havent seen any good prices for the ls1 acc. I have a 02 5.3 going in a 86 TA I have a TBW arent those too big to fit the ls1 intake? I read somewhere where the ecm wont work if you change it to tbc, is that true?

87CIZ

iTrader: (8)

The Ram Air II hood for camaro's clears the truck accessories well. Will have a picture in the next week or so. Our test fit even with it sitting the oil pan on the k member it still cleared with 1 1/2 to 2 inches.

Atilla the Fun

Excellent, thanks!

Fastime

BlackTopKing

iTrader: (1)

This i will be watching, nice thread

Falconiroc

I'll be watching this thread too, as I am going to be picking up a Truck LSX engine here soon to prep for my swap. I'm leaning heavily toward car accessories, but It is interesting to see other options.

Fastime

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

i have used these and they worked good.