PROPHET69

Hey people, I've been dealing with a pretty annoying issue with my 2002 GMC Sierra. I've turned here as many of you seem more mechanically-wise than other forums and helped me much with my third gen. This is a problem any vehicle could get.

The problem is that my 5.3 liter engine has a manifold bolt stuck inside it's threads with no stem ticking out, it broke off at some point and exhaust started leaking. So I decided to fix this and install LPP long tubes as well.

But the prob is that this bolt will NOT be drilled out, even with a heavy duty hand drill using cobalt and carbide bits. The bolt is SOLID. Let's put this way... after 17 hours worth of drilling, i'm about half a centimeter in... there's about 4 centimeters left.

I called a few engine and exhaust shops and they use standard drills and charge per hour... some admitting that my drill bits are better and their cost may outweigh the value of the head, or even not be able to help me

So... i'm stuck here, I have a good 5.3 liter engine, replacing the head costs about 850$ as it's aluminum, yet getting a BIGGER Newer engine with only 49 000miles, a 6.0liter would cost me only 1000$.

In all your experiences, what kind of place can help me out here without costing me an arm and a leg? A machinist? I don't know, you'd think there would be some kind of shop I could bring a head to jsut to drill and retap the damn thing.

It's ridiculous, I keep drilling because I don't want to have to change an engine or pay 850$ for a new head just because of a bolt, but I have now come to the realization that this bolt will NOT come out by any hand drill.

So my options are the following... I find a competent place I can bring the head to and do it for a decent price... or pay 1000$ to have my engine changed. The prob is... I can't find a COMPETENT place...

I've never had engine parts re-machined... so wouldn't a place that machine engine parts be able to do this for me for less than a hundred dollars or so?? Or... is using a damned hand drill and charging per hour as technologically advanced as todays automotive industry is today?

PROPHET69

Anyone?

50bmgshooter

iTrader: (4)

if you remove the head you can bring it to a welder and have them weld a smaller bolt onto the broken one, then with the heat transfer from the welding it usually breaks the bolt loose so then simply take the proper size wrench and remove the bolt.

Damon

If it was flush with the head or slightly protruding I would have suggested cutting a slit across it and using an "impact screwdriver". Yeah, you bugger up the head near where you make the cut across the bolt but who cares? It's on the exhaust side anyway- won't hurt anything.

I think you may have already drilled too far to try this, however. Might have drilled too far to try the welding idea, too.

Go buy some fresh bits and keep at it, I guess.

I H8 WWD

iTrader: (5)

What about using a bolt extractor since you drilled into it? I had to do this with an adapter that was stuck in my shifter, it tightens in the direction the bolt loosens, so the more you tighten it, the the harder it tries to loosen the bolt. Just find one that fits into the hole you drilled and start removing it. Its kind of like a reverse drill bit for bolts. Just my suggestion.

http://www.irwin.com/irwin/consumer/...rwinProd100502

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I had an exhaust manifold bolt broken off in my LS1 when I got it. I used a reverse twist drill bit and easy-out. Took me less than an hour.

Don't forget these bolts are Loctite'd in.

PROPHET69

Thanks for all your suggestions, same suggestions as other forums...they all make sense and SHOULD work but...these won't work, Tried already...

Welds aren't strong enough for a bolt frozen in there for years...keeps breaking off

and...lol... trust me, extracting tools...not many has more than I do. I'm talking about a set of 20 left-handed drill bits, set of 10 twist outs, a tin full of hammer in and pull out, a set of these:

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows...iece%2BSet.jsp

and a set of these:

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/brows...rill%2BOut.jsp

This is only for bolts without any stem sticking out. I have other types of extractors for damaged bolts with stems sticking out and rounded off heads.

They won't work either, the hole isn't big enough, and even after drilling all day today with Carbide tipped Cobalt drill bits, I've hardly progressed. It's nuts! I'm wasting my time at this point. No exhaust/engine rebuilding shops seem to be able to do a better job than I can, none seem confident when I question them... and some tell me that they only use Hi-speed drill bits while other don't know what they use. Useless.

I contacted a couple machine shops today who use Press drills and can't help me there either because press drills only work of flat surfaces while an engine head is at an angle.

So I contacted a mill shop and the guy told me that milling machines would most likely damage the aluminum head form the excess heat it would cause.
NICE!

So I'm ****ed in other words. I'm going to work on this tonight and try a grinding stone and other crap... if I just can't progress, WELL screw it, tomorrow I'll start unhooking the mounts and the transmission and will get that damned 6.0liter engine this guy offered me for 1 grand.

STUPID BOLT!!

andrew69_04

iTrader: (1)

yeah, i would honestly try an extractor. keep penetrating oil in that hole too!

just be carefull with an extractor not to break it off. once you break it off your really screwed.

MaxpowerTA

It sounds like it's work hardened, possibly from going too fast when you were drilling it? go slow with the cobalt bits and use a lubricant of some sort. maybe try grinding on it a bit with some sort of stone to get past the surface hardened portion and then try drilling it again but go slowly and dont let it heat up. hope you get it out

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Heat would soften it, not harden it.

MaxpowerTA

umm well actually no heat from drilling too fast causes work hardening of the metal, and when that happens all you do is dull your bits. metalurgy 101

Air_Adam

Wrong. 'Work hardening' is when you bend a peice of steel, and you get that 'hump' where the bend was when you try to straighten it out again. The area where the metal was bent is work hardened, and thus will not bend back straight as easily as the non-work-hardened metal around it.

I'm a bodyman, I know what work hardening is. I deal with it every day. Heat is often times the cure for work-hardened steel.

Metal gets softer (or loses its hardness) when its heated up past a certain point. This is why there are special procedures for working with heat and hardened steel, if you don't want it to lose its hardness by the time you are done.

As far as bolts go - heat makes them softer, which makes them easier to drill. The reason they get harder to cut into with a drill bit after they get hot is usually 'driver error'. By that, I mean whoever is using the drill got too agressive with it, and overheated the drill bit. You didn't make the bolt harder by getting it hot, you made the drill bit softer. Thats why it won't cut anymore.

87CIZ

iTrader: (8)

surf ls1tech. you can probably score another head for reasonably cheap. just get one with the same casting number. Also, drill slow with a new bit it should cut pretty fast. I had to do this recently to my 6.0


check out http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/lsx-pa...lsx-parts.html i dont know if thats what you need but it's a start.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm a metallurgist by training, I know what work hardening is. Air is correct.

Correct. When the bit edge gets hot and softens, it gets dull.

cam-

I have a used pair of stock 99 LS1 853 complete heads. $75.00 plus shipping for one or both they should work fine.

MaxpowerTA

OK guy's I don't want to start a pissing match here but since we are laying down our qualifications, I am an aircraft maintenance engineer, and I deal with drilling out stuck fasteners on a regular basis (ever see all those flush mounted screws on airplane skins) If you drill too fast and heat up the surface of what you are drilling you will work harden it and then further drilling becomes very difficult if not impossible. This is especially important when dealing with stainless fasteners but it also applies to certain hardened steel too. And finally if you dont believe me, google drilling bolts and work hardening and you will get loads of hits on the subject!

Air_Adam

From dictionary.com

http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...ning?qsrc=2446

The process of heating up and then cooling metal to increase hardness is called tempering, not work hardening. But tempering also involves rapidly cooling the metal after it is heated up - not likely an issue when drilling out a broken bolt.

I'm not trying to start a pissing match, I just want to clear up some incorrect information.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Like Air, I don't either. But, I can't let mis-statements go without a response.

It isn't unusual for terms to be misused. Ever hear of metal breaking because it "crystallized"? That's a laugher, because metals, by definition, are crystals. How about "stainless steel"? The proper designation is "corrosion resistant steel", but "stainless" is used all the time. There are plenty more examples.

If a drilling operation causes heating, it isn't "cold worked". If it is cold worked, it isn't because of overheating.

tony_cogliandro

iTrader: (3)

i got a crazy idea.
you say the bolt holding the exhaust on is broken and is stuck into the head and the manifold. so here is my suggestion.
unscrew all the bolts and take them out of the head. now you only have one bolt attaching the exhaust to the head.
now spin the exhaust manifold and unscrew it from the head. if the exhaust is too big then cut it so that it will spin. make the manifold into a wing nut.

89RS_82Z

iTrader: (2)

yea you need to drill at the speed recomended for the meterial, i got a chart in with my drill bits tells you max RPMs for what meterial and normaly its the bit that will dull if you drill to fast

anyway that irwin tool should do the trick with some PB sprayed into into a few times and letting the PB set over night

but looks like you may of done alot of this allready

for 1000 get the 6.0, then go to an automotive machine shop and get that bolt tapped out put new threds in it and then sell the motor and hopefully break even and have more HP

MaxpowerTA

I assure you I am not the one putting out misinformation, Work hardening is a broad based term and yes it can refer to sheet-metal hardening when you bend it repeatedly but it can also refer to the process of a material becoming work hardened due to improper drilling. Heres a quote from an article in 'Tooling and Production' a machinist's trade publication.

work hardening
n.
The increasen strength that accompanies plastic deformation of a metal.
.
"Work hardening is a "silent" kind of shop problem. No one talks about it much and no one can easily define it, but it can affect almost every job. So, what is work hardening? Technically, work hardening is a restructuring of the part material on a molecular level. When heated to a specific range, for a specific length of time, the molecules of the material rearrange themselves to form a new harder material rYou say this sounds a lot like heat treatment of metals, well you are fight. The same process that heat treats metal is also the process that causes work hardening, but on a smaller scale. When work hardening occurs, the affected area will appear to be shiny and slippery. Although the surface will appear glazed it is not flat. The material will have a hard, uneven surface, like a fragmented sheet of ice. This area will be very hard and difficult to machine. How is a part heated to such temperatures that will allow for work hardening? Metal cutting requires great forces and the action of a tool meeting the material is not always smooth. Friction between the tool and the part is the greatest source of heat on the part and this heat causes work hardening.

In everyday terms, work hardening is caused by dull tools rubbing against the material. There are a number of tips to help you avoid work hardening."
And the article goes on to tell you to use sharp bits, coolant, slow drilling speeds etc. I can link it if you'd like to read it.

NomadTA

iTrader: (1)

I've gotten these out of aluminum heads twice in the past by welding a nut onto the stud. Both times they were broken below the gasket surface. Get a nut that has a thread hole larger than the dia of the stud by maybe 1/16". Mig weld inside of it to attach the stud to the nut, then just thread it out. The aluminum will expand from the heat and usually breaks the rust seal. One I did was in bad, took 3 tries of welding a nut on, it kept just breaking the weld off the top of the stud.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

A completely unqualified source, I'm afraid. Metals don't have molecules.

screeminchicken

iTrader: (2)

Instead of PB blaster use cutting oil. I am in the same boat except for the panhard brace bolt. I was able to drill it out but the ends of the extractors keep rounding off

Air_Adam

Plastic deformation = deformed mechanically (ie. beating with a hammer, bending, folding, etc). This is really the only correct part of the article you posted.

Heat is the cure for work hardening. Its the only way to take it out of a piece of steel and return the area to the state of hardness it was at before it was hit with something.

Hardening using heat is called tempering, and it is a totally different process than heating metal to remove the hardness from work hardening, which is done mechanically.

J91

The welding idea could work, when it's hot from welding, apply candlewax to it, it'll seep in-between the threads of the bolt and head. This has worked for me in the past.

I love the way some poor guy comes on here w/ a problem, and the thread transforms into an arguement about who knows more than the next guy. This is a help kind of thread, not a pissing match about who is right and wrong....

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Actually, tempering is a softening and toughening process. . .

To harden an austenitic steel with heat you have to heat above the austenite point and then quench it. You might heat it with drilling, but the only possibility of quenching would be the heat sink of the surrounding material. Might happen, but I doubt it. At any rate, it still isn't "work hardening". The heat/quench process makes the material very hard and brittle, you then gently heat it to a lower temp to temper it - this makes it a little softer than the quenched hardness, but harder than annealed (heated above austenite temp and gradually cooled) and much tougher than either quenched.

Enough of the metallurgy lesson.

Speaking of heat - since those bolts are Loctited in, some heat on the head might actually help remove it. Carefully heat up the head material around the head, and use a reverse twist drill bit. It just may catch and back out.

I didn't know about the Loctite before I started drilling mine out. The engine was out of the vehicle and on the garage floor, with the manifolds removed. I can't imagine trying to do this with the engine installed.

MaxpowerTA

You are looking at this only from the limited scope of your personal experiences with certain types of steel used in the body working industry. I personally have experienced work hardening while drilling materials and it is a known fact that it happens. here is a quote from the 'Champion cutting tool corp' titled 'The use and care of twist drills'

Stainless Steel
More difficult to drill than carbon steels. Some are free-machining, but the 18-8 types
are very difficult due to work-hardening properties. First rule is to keep drills
continuously cutting. If tool edges are permitted to idle and rub on the work, the surface
will be work-hardened and it will be impossible to restart the cut. For the same reason, it
is advisable to use fairly heavy feeds, so that the tool edges will get under the workhardened
surface left by the preceding edges.
Armor Plate
Very difficult to drill due to extreme hardness and toughness. Tendency to work-harden,
and is often flame cut which produces hard spots. Make sure cutting tool cuts
continuously to avoid work-hardening, use heavy feed pressure. Drills must be kept
sharp. Use a large volume of cutting fluid to reduce heat.
I can go on and on quoting different reputable sources all day, But i am not going to because ultimately it isnt really going to help the poor guy who started this thread. All I have been saying from the beginning is be carefull when drilling out hardened steels as they will work harden on you and then become really hard to drill out further.

lee4354

well i feel for you, i have been down this road one to many times. The best way for me to get mine out were a dremel with a snake end(flexable) and a correct size drill bit.(i used a $25 diamond coated bit from tractor supply) most hand held tools and air ones dont spin as fast as a dremel. i fought with one in the #4 exhaust port for a week until i tryed the dremel about an hour later it was nothing but pieces. blow out the hole and retap done and done. give it a shot and let us know

NomadTA

iTrader: (1)

Yes, welding a nut on works. I've done it before. Of course this assumes that the head is off the engine or you are double jointed so you can get in there to weld a nut on. If you quench it after welding it then the steel stud will shrink int the hole and it'll come out.

Had broken studs on a Mercury Villager but in that case I scrapped the vehicle rather than fix the head stud issue.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Yes, you have been going on & on using a term improperly, and even though you have been corrected, you continue to use that term improperly.

Although it has nothing to do with the poor guy getting his broken off fastener out, people do come across threads such as this and pick up on terms used improperly. If not for that, I wouldn't have said anything about your using a term improperly.

By the way, quenching won't shrink the fastener any more than letting it cool normally. The only hope you have there is that the steel only would cool, keeping the aluminum expanded, so the bolt would have less interference. However, the Loctite would be softer when hot, so it makes more sense to try to move it while hot.

MaxpowerTA

[quote=five7kid;4160153]Yes, you have been going on & on using a term improperly, and even though you have been corrected, you continue to use that term improperly.

Well you certainly are an insistent and opinionated fellow, even though i have shown you quotes of 2 of the dozens of different articles i have come across referencing the term 'work hardening' In respect to machining/drilling of steel you insist that i, and the authors of those articles are wrong and are using the term incorrectly, I beg to differ.I'm not sure what your qualifications in stating that is but I would suggest that the next time you are speaking to a machinist, aerospace worker, or maybe a tool and die maker you should ask them about work hardening and see what they say. Although i seriously doubt you'd listen to them either.

V8Rumble

iTrader: (2)

Now THAT'S funny! You see, five7 is a metallurgist (as he mentioned above) - and (rather ironically given your statement) he works at the engineering level in the aerospace industry... (I'm not saying that to ridicule you in any way, it's just that I found your statement to be a bit ironic considering that fact.) (Five7kid, I hope that that's not putting too much info out there - definitely delete this if you're not comfortable with it.)

Not to be too contrary, but can we perhaps drag this thread back on-topic soon?

duderjay

hmmmm I ain't getting into the above arguement, (altho I have worked on stationary engine for 15 years all over the americas0

Lets try to help this guy.

I have seen a buddy on mine on a 2.8 drill out a bunch of manifold studs using a drilling guide and a right angle drill. Basically the guide could fit a bunch of different hardened bushings with different sized holes and just center it over the bolt and drill away straight as can be.

Now you have a bolt thats harder than f*ck. hmmmmm what has happened to me in the past and still does when drilling bolts or big *** rings gears is that if I drill to fast or put too much pressure and the bit or reamer gets too hot and buddy who's shooting the cutting oil in the hole cools it off too fast the bit gets buggered up and the material gets hard and it sucks cuz it chews up the cutting edges of the bits. But what I have found you can push through the hardened part until you reach the softer material underneath and then it will start cutting.

I hate easy outs, one some you stick in the hole and tap them in the hole and they expand the bolt against the threads and sometimes they get stuck and snap off, also the fluted ones as well. Easy outs stay out of my service truck and stay in the shop for the apprentices to scream over after the break em off and have to drill em out.

Another one I would try is to heat the bolt red hot and then let it cool to ambient temp SLOWY I would do it 2 or three times no rushing just let it cool down to ambient temp. Sometimes that helps takes some of the hardness out.

Also sometimes I sharpen different angles on my bits steeper or less steeper angles.

And as stated above in a couple of posts left handed drill bits all the way on this one.

Last resort if it don't come out but you have a hole drilled thru, I would step up in sizes drill make that hole bigger and bigger until I see the threads just starting to appear in the sides then at the top thread I take a center punch and try to whack that bolt material in the thread and if it starts to come out and am lucky can unravel it out of the hole. Or oriings picks can peel it out too, even a starting tap can take some of it out.

good luck sorry for the long spiel

berlin305

iTrader: (2)

with all the confusion on this. lol and arguement. is it the manifold bolt? If it is just leave it as is and just don't put a bolt there i done that and works fine no exhaust leaks see problem solved. when u can't get it fixed work around it. my opinion. I mean come on the manifold bolts one bolt missing won't do harm.

88iroc52387

iTrader: (2)

Honestly i know you don't wanna hear this but this is a semi common thing and it shouldn't be all that complicated i've run across this a couple times with my buddy helpin him with a few of his derby cars. Those motors are put through a hell of lot more stress then your average truck motor and we've had to deal with this problem before. Go to Auto zone get some freeze off by CRC, use half the can get it good and soaked. Let it sit then compeltely cover the thing in PB blaster keep soaking it for a few hours. Let it sit over night spraing it pierodically if you happen to go by. Then the next day heat it with your good old setaline, let it cool, heat her again, let it cool, mildy heat it and use a tap out. It should come out. We have had one not come out before but i got my buddies day to drill it out at work (he's a machinist). I can't doin a motor swap over dropping this off at a machinsts shop.... Goodluck i hope it comes out for you i know stuck bolts can really get ur blood boiling.

87tpi350,6spd

iTrader: (12)

alright I have done this several times on the 6.0l engines for some reason they seem to break more offten. a regular sharp cobalt drill bit should work very well not sure what your problem is there. The last one I did I broke the easy out off in the bolt and no longer could drill it. sent it to a local machine shop and they removed and heil coiled the bolt hole charged 100 bucks but they fixed it.

NomadTA

iTrader: (1)

So did you ever get the broken bolt out?

milhouse89

I can't really tell which of you knows what you're talking about and I don't think he ever got the bolt out. You were talking about heating the bolt so I decided to ask you. My problem is a stuck head bolt and my next try is to heat the head of the bolt and then put my impact wrench on it. My question ," How hot should I heat it, I'm using a propane torch (3300 *F) and I've heard terms such as cherry red. My next question is how long should I wait after heating it to cherry red? Someone mentioned, I think it was you, waiting till it reaches an ambient temperature. I'm not sure on this but it seems to me that the heat will weaken the steel and if I don't let it cool off the bolt might break. So my 2 questions are, How long should I heat it(cherry red?) and how long should I wait for it to cool off before using the impact wrench or should I use a breaker bar?