First, the config: purple LS1 start wire connected directly to the 3rd gen purple start wire, which goes through the C100 bulkhead connector (twice, when you count the red power wire), ignition switch, and neutral safety switch on the B&M Megashifter. For reference, the previous ZZ3 clone 350 had difficulties starting when hot; voltage check showed a 2 volt drop from battery to the connection at the starter solenoid (1 volt each for the ignition switch and neutral safety switch). I replaced the ignition switch with a new NAPA piece, but that didn't help. The problem was solved by installing a remote starter solenoid (which never failed me, but was removed for the LS1 swap).

Friday evening at the track, I was ready to pull into the burn-out box and the starter didn't engage when the ignition was turned to "start". I had the shifter in "N", pushed it up to "P", tried again, and it started. Hmmm, maybe a B&M mircoswitch issue.

Throughout the rest of the evening, though, about 2/3rds of the starts required two tries - most of the time I didn't even touch the shifter. I could hear the starter clunk, but not engage. It was pretty hot that afternoon and early evening, maybe the starter is getting weak. Left the car at the track after going out 2nd round, got a ride home from my son, went out Saturday morning driving the LS1/T56 car (stick shift and auto car would be run on Sat).

The car and weather was cool when I first got back out to the track, it started fine several times. It got hot again that afternoon, and by the 4th TT, it did it again - simply cycling the ignition to "off" then back to "start", the starter would engage. For most of the afternoon, same thing - needed to cycle it twice to get it to engage. After going out 2nd round again, and after my son went out 4th round, we packed up, I drove the stick car home, he got in the auto car to follow me home and we'd go back to pick up his Blazer - but, the starter didn't want to engage for him. After about the 6th try, it finally engaged.

After taking him back to the track, I stopped at the storage unit and unloaded the track paraphernalia - afterward it simply wouldn't engage, although I could hear the solenoid clunk. I had a chunk of 10 gauge wire with me, disconnected the starter wire connector, and jumped it directly to the battery - immediate engagement. I reconnected, went to start it with the ignition switch, nothing first turn, engaged the 2nd. Drove it home, it sat until this morning.

Got in the car to go to work, started right up. Went out at lunch time, took 2 tries twice.

I haven't done a voltage check yet, but I suspect it will show the same voltage drop as the Gen I system. I guess I assumed the LS1 starter would be able to handle the reduced voltage, but it's hotter now than it has been since I got this combo running last September. I'm using the 4th gen fuse/relay box, which includes a starter relay - I'm thinking that may be the simplest solution, to go ahead and run it through that system. Should reduce the voltage drop to the starter solenoid.

As for using the remote solenoid, I found with the '57 that they don't play well with a permanent magnet starter - the starter turns into a generator when you back the ignition switch from "start" to "run", and the busbar between the battery cable terminal and the start terminal on the starter solenoid keeps the starter solenoid powered, which keeps the Bendix engaged with the flexplate, which keeps the starter motor turning, which keeps it acting as a generator...

 

I would suggest to simply make a new starter relay with good gauge wire directly from the battery to the starter solenoid to eliminate the voltage drop.Use the old starter wire to trigger the relay.See how well that works for you,its a simple easy solution to monitor and to wire up under the hood with a fuse aswell.Also give you the ability to jump the starter at the battery depending how close you put the relay to the battery and run your wires.Try a good higher amperage bosch relay too.Good luck

 

That's basically what the factory 4th gen fuse/relay box does. Except for the jump starting part. I was thinking I'd do a relay system like you are suggesting, then realized the car already had it (just wasn't being used).

 

Please forgive if I missed it, but is there a heat shield between the starter and the headers?

 

You didn't miss it, I didn't say anything about a shield.

Whatever was stock, and now I can't remember...

 

Sounds like the pull-in force of the solenoid is weak and it can't clear tooth abutments. It goes on the next attempt because often the pinion will rotate a little and will clear tooth abutment. It might be low voltage at the starter or just a worn starter. Or worst of all damaged teeth on the starter or flywheel.

A starter can't turn into a generator. You had it wired wrong and the solenoid latched in the closed position.

 

Maybe it needs a shim between the block and the starter?

 

The starter and flexplate teeth were in great shape when I put it together in April, and it hasn't made any funny noises since then.

I'm confident it's low voltage on the start wire. I made an attempt at checking it, but couldn't probe the female connector properly, and didn't have any assistance at the time. Later...

 

Most starters are rated to 120C ambient temperature. If the solenoid is hot soaked above that temperature then the resistance of the solenoid coils increases to a point where performance is lost and the field isn't strong enough to pull in the starter when it meets resistance on the engine ring gear.

Voltage at the starter solenoid switch terminal should be within 1 voltage of battery voltage. You mentioned that you installed a remote starter relay? That should have eliminated voltage drop issues to the starter solenoid switch terminal. In the new configuration the key switch controls the remote relay field coil. One side of the power contacts should be tied back to battery distribution center, and the other side to the starter solenoid switch terminal.

The starter drive assembly can wear out. The symptom is usually increased rate of click-no-crank, which is what you are getting.

 

The remote solenoid was the Gen I config., removed for the LS1.

 

When I did my swap i was told the lsx blocks and starters do not use shims at all and I installed mine as such and havent had any problems.My ls1 is stock and there is no heat shield for the starter unless its missing from my motor when I bought it.

Another good reason for starter issues is the reverse of a good power source but a bad ground to the block itself will create voltage loss and resistance just the same and is often overlooked.Worth checking into.

but it does sound like a simply weak solenoid,was it a rebuilt starter or the original with alot of mileage on it?

 

It is the original starter that came with the LS1/4L60E drop-out.

It was fine after driving it home last night, and popped right off this morning. I'm still leaning toward the low voltage scenario, guess I need to actually measure it to validate the theory.

 

measure it,wont take long and it will only help narrow down the culprit.id also seriously look into making sure the motor has good ground points.when the car is running,do you notice voltage drop alot when you turn on accessories?

 

The battery ground goes straight to the block, just like stock. I have ground straps from the head to the firewall, from the block to the frame, and from the negative battery cable to the fender, just like stock.

At idle, the voltmeter needle moves with the turn signal, for instance, about the width of the needle. The alternator was new this spring (not rebuilt), the original alternator was doing some very weird things (which this one isn't doing).

When the starter does engage, it spins over very well. There is no in between - either it doesn't do anything but clunk, or it spins over like there's no problem. When I jumped the start wire directly to the battery, it spun over immediately and vigorously - but no more vigorously than it does when it does engage with the ignition switch.

By the way, it was hotter today than it has been all year. I started it several times, and it kicked right in and started up immediately each time. It did have opportunities for heat soak.

Oh, and I still haven't measure the start voltage. I got a call at work this afternoon that tonight was going to be "movie night"...

 

I had similar problems with my 89 Players Challenge car. It ended up being the starter switch at the bottom of the column in my case.

 

I didn't drive the car from Thursday before July 4th, went out to start it the following Tuesday, and the battery was dead. The Garmin was plugged in (but off), otherwise nothing left on. I jumped it, pulled it into the garage, and put the 2 amp charger on it. The charger has been on continuously since.

Tonight I finally got back out to check it over. With the start wire disconnected, it showed full battery voltage in the start position. With the start wire hooked up, it would start up before the volt meter needle got to the voltage (slow meter - didn't think to disconnect the ignition and see how it did while cranking).

The 4th gen fuse/relay box didn't have the start relay in it (the seller stripped that box of the relays - why, I don't know), so the first step was to go to the parts store and buy a relay, which they had. Then, trace the wires, which wasn't too hard, except I had snipped off the start wire and the start signal wire - the latter pretty short. I managed to solder the respective wires onto what was left. The "ground" side of the relay magnet went to the C101 connector, which kind of baffles me. I snipped it and tied it to ground. First try it popped right off, seemed crisper than before (but that could be faulty memory, or a fully charged battery). Several start tries, it hit each time.

So, I'll start driving it to work again tomorrow and see how it does - supposed to get warmer in the next few days. Then, racing Friday evening and Saturday, so we'll see how it does there (supposed to get pretty toasty Saturday).

 

hopefully you are good to go now having a new relay and soldered your connection points.i stripped my car of all starter related relays and used the start wire from the key down to the clutch switch then out to the starter itself and an inline fuse.makes my testing/diagnosing very straight forward.I did this for everything i could during my swap to simply and clean up the wires and easy to trace problems if they occur.helps being an automotive accessory tech for 10yrs makes ya kinda paranoid lol.

 

All of my start connections before were either connectors or soldered, so I don't think that was the issue. Certainly there are a lot fewer connections and contacts with the path now. Relays are a lot less sensitive to low voltage than starter solenoids are.

 

Commuting in hot weather; racing on a hot day with many restarts, waiting for the rain to pass through to complete racing; 200 mile one-way drive to a Saturday race, 95-97 degrees all day; commuting since returning - not a hiccup. Seems much happier this way.

 

Glad to hear.seems your issue is gone now.maybe you had alot of resistance built of somewhere in the circuit at one point and making less connections may have solved it.

Relays are less sensitive to low voltage since it barely requires anything to trigger it.Since I wasnt using a 4th gen relay/fuse panel and all I have are regular bosch relays arent high current.So I went more direct for my starter wire.

How did she drive on the track?got any vids are time slips?

 

On the track at home it was fine, I just couldn't cut a light (went from 6th to 9th place in one class, 14th to tied for 6th place in another class).

At the out-of-town track, no traction, bouncy track for the first couple hundred feet, hot, humid, generally miserable.

I think my wife got some video of the home track racing, but I haven't downloaded it yet.

 

Had a little trouble getting the camera to focus at night. Can't even hear the Camaro going down the track.