camaro1185

I have been wanting to post this for a while. I have a L98 that is VERY temperamental. When it runs, it runs great, and I get so much enjoyment out of it. When it doesn't run right, it takes a while to sort out the problem and get it running again. My ultimate goal for my car for it to be RELIABLE that I don't have to worry about if I will be coming home on a flat bed or under its own power when I take it for a drive.

It seems like the people who have done the LSx swap, are putting some major miles on the car due to the better engine, and a engine management system that will tell you EXACTLY what is wrong if it doesn't run right.

My question are:
1. After the swap is completed, and the bugs are worked out, has your ls swapped third gen been reliable, or does it require a lot of up/tuning/tinkering keep to keep it running problem free?

2. Id like to hear some experiences how the car runs after the car has been finished.

3. Any regrets at all on doing the swap?

Either way, I am planning on doing the swap this winter.

Jaysz28

iTrader: (30)

I got 9k miles out of my swap before the motor started consuming oil.... other than that, it wasn't terrible

I also know a ton of people putting a lot of miles on their L98/LB9/Lo3 cars without any issues....

alan91z28

if done right, your lsx swap is going to be a lot more reliable and you will have a lot more performance

there are tons of design improvements in lsx vs sbc... the electronics and sensors are much more modern and easy to diagnose and tune if you want to get into that yourself compared to the limited data / prom burning scenario of tpi for example

i have 3 3rd gens at this point and my '85 IROC LS3 / TVS2300 has by far the most performance and i have no reliability fears other than me causing it by wanting to see how far i can push it. i don't use it as a daily driver only because i just put a pretty steep paint and resto job in it and while i am not going to have it as a garage queen, it isn't going to see rain, etc

my daily driver in the summer is my '88 Camaro with a 2.8... looks good, but no performance and bad idle that keeps me on my toes waiting for a stall... lsx hopefully this winter

my '91 Z28 vert only has 6000 miles on it and it will remain 305 TPI as i want that one original, but if it wasn't in that condition it would be LSX too!

If you like to do stuff yourself including tuning / controls, etc the lsx is a perfect mix of performance, reliability and flexibility that is likely to be the best there will be in my opinion

lunati397

if you keep the motor stock or even mild yes it will be very reliable and get power and good gas milage

the thing is most do the swap to have a better platform to make big power where reliability is gone but grins and smiles are plentyfull

swap in a LS1 with a LS6 hot cam kit and intake along with the headers and you shouldnt have any bugs have good power and reliability

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I guess it depends on what your end goal is. An L98 can be a very reliable motor. I daily drove my Corvette (summers only) for 5 years, racking up 10k+ miles per year, and other than a few alternator failures early on, it never left me stuck on the side of the road. My GTA is rapidly approaching 150k miles on the stock drivetrain, and I drive it to work regularly (65 miles round trip). My IROC has a heavily modified TPI350 that I built over 10 years ago, and although I had a LOT of teething issues, that car has been very reliable for the last few years.

But... yeah, you're going to chuck a sensor from time to time, and you need to be handy with a wrench to keep these cars in top form. They aren't Toyotas by any stretch. An LS will be more reliable, but to be honest, if you've got the skill for an LS swap, you've got the skill to keep your TPI car reliable.

That said, the LS does offer some advantages that you're just not going to get from a small block. The architecture is very well engineered, and extremely strong, which allows for huge power with remarkable reliability (Reliability in this sense isn't related to daily driver kind of reliability, but more along the lines of making 1000+ horsepower without scattering parts). Because of the outstanding cylinder head architecture, combined with outstanding engine control, it's also possible to get big horsepower with combinations that can idle in traffic with the air conditioning on, pull 15" of vacuum, and knock down 25mpg on the highway. To me, that's the true beauty of the LS platform.

Guest

For me the LS swap is 3 part. Short term, it's so I don't fall behind. This is the future, and I want a place in it, rather than being obsolete before my time.
Also, it's already cheaper and easier to piece together a visually legal, tailpipe-sniffer-legal Ls, than it is to put together an SBC that meets that same requirement. Not all of the TPI stuff is available new anymore, some of it has to be found used, at insane prices, only to fail 5 miles later. I refuse to let that insanity bankrupt me.
Thirdly, the LS is huge power with modest cams, easy driveability, and excellent MPG. Do a Vortec 350, then do an LS1. Put the same cam spec in both, the LS1 will be up at least 50 HP and 500 RPM, and 5 MPG.
The main issue is the BS with oil pans and accessories. I come from a background of SBC, where one oilpan fits everything, and can be had new for under $50. Where every version used the same water pump for 20 years, and the same P/S pump, and brackets, et cetera.
GM ruined all that for the LSx, and they didn't do it to reduce manufacturing costs. Nor does it reduce warranty claims, or emissions, or fuel consumption.
The initial cost is insanely steep, but the end justifies the means, if you can afford the means.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

Mine has been dead reliable for the 4-5 years I've had the LS1 in it. I put WAY more miles on the car now than I ever did. With a 6 speed and a 4:10 rear I still managed to pull down 30mpg on the highway. I've never even had a valve cover off. The first time I pulled the intake off was this spring to put on the supercharger. Even now with the blower on it it runs great, starts every time, idles smooth on a hot day in traffic with the A/C blowing.

That being said.....a 305/350TPI can be just as reliable if maintained and should have no problems going 150K+ miles...lol

camaro1185

Thanks for the responses guys. I guess I shouldn't call it un-reliable, it just needs a lot of back maintainence. When I got the car, it had been parked for 8 years and wasn't driven. I honestly can see the light at the end of the tunnel with the car, there is very little left that I haven't replaced, and its getting better and better as the days go on.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

My old TBI had 296k witohut issues when pulled. After my swap once the bugs got worked out, my only down time was me messing with it

Jaysz28

iTrader: (30)

Thats what I should have typed!

Blownz28man

iTrader: (2)

Me, No regrets. Just be prepared to want more power... Thats why mine is back apart now. Handled a lot better due to the weight difference. About my only problem (my fault) was a bad ground. Wasn't tight and had intermittant starting problems.

Mkos1980

iTrader: (8)

Regrets? Not really. Just working a few bugs out. A ton more power though. First dyno tune out was 397 RWHP which blew my 13yo muffler case apart....

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

just do it man, you've been watchin mine over on necf, i know its buggin ya... i have 5.3's cheap. lmk.

camaro1185

Ill pm you. Your company and their core charges suck though. Not only that, I was looking for a 6.0L not the 5.3L. We will talk!

On the other hand, I have something to check out today when I get home, which I think can be part of the reason my L98 doesnt run to it full potential.

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

the cost.....

lunati397

6.0s are cheap by me around 500 to 700 complete I just bought mine for 500 and it was a 2005 with 15000 miles looked brand new

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

It really depends on how you approach it. Installing a stock LS is a cost effective solution compared to building an SBC or buying an SBC crate motor with similar power, and though used, the LS probably has as many miles left in it as that new SBC crate motor. Likewise, when you get into big horsepower, the cost differentials between SBC and LSx shrink, with nothing to say of the other benefits of the LS platform.

The only time an LS looks expensive is if you compare parts to parts, and not results to results.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

My only regret is not buying a parts car to use for the swap. It would have been cheaper than buying a block, having it rebuilt, then buying all the accessories for it afterwords.

kevinc

1. Very reliable, but my L98 TPI was similarly low maintenance. They're about the same. The LS1 is noisier when cold, piston slap in particular, but it goes away when the engine is up to temp. L98 didn't make noise under the hood other than the injectors clicking even when cold.

2.) Runs great, makes much more power than my L98 TPI and gets 25-28mpg on highway commuting.

3.) I regret that I didn't do it sooner.

86White_T/A305

My only regret was how intimidating a polished tpi looks under the hood lol.Stock for stock the ls out shines the tpi for driveability.Fun wise..tpi on the street had brutal bottom end grunt from off idle,but the lsx just freight trains once in its power band.Maintenance..here is where things will vary big time because you either have a good running l98 or one that very tempermental..which mine was and lack of tuners..parts and just overall pita is it to work on tpi is what broke me down.My ls1 hasnt given me a touch of grief yet...it doesnt sputter or run any different depending on the weather like my sd tpi would.I can change all 8 spark plugs on my ls1 without cursing lol,Ive spent more on gas having the ls due to the fun of the high rpm power and alot more burnout miles lol.

Overall..My wallet hates the ls1..I regret not doing mods before putting it now because its coming right back out.If you car is all original with tpi and in perfect running order.why change something thats good as it sits.

cam-

Only regrets is how freaking long it takes me to get these swaps done BLAH! But everything else about them is brilliant truthfully. The smile per mile factor is very high on these swaps

White'89

iTrader: (8)

My only regret is not selling myself on the street corner to buy a turbo kit.

Guest

This is why everyone on LS1Tech starts with a 4000-stall torque converter.

Guest

For some swaps, this might be a necessary evil.
For example, my 5.3L LM7 engine came from one source, and I've now ported the heads.
My intake and exhaust manifolds came from a second source, my ECM from a third, my harness from a fourth, my MAF from a fifth, and my injectors from a sixth.
So just to get it running may prove challenging enough already, I'll save my big 222/228, 113+4, 567/567 cam until after I get it running on the stock 191/190,114, 457/466 cam.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Lets see... My 87 305 TPI auto had lots of little issues. BUT...it had some age on it. So little things (sensors, relays, wiring, seals, etc) were starting to get towards the end of their life span. In another 20 years...my LS1 might end up with the same issues. Tho technology has advanced a bit since TPI too haha. But I did have a bunch of little issues with it. I cant remember a time when it didnt start for me. It would do things like hang at 1500 rpms no matter what I did to it. I would fix that, and then the trans would act up...etc etc.

1. I feel that the wiring is the #1 thing to get nailed down for a reliable LS1 swap. They are so self contained and stand alone. As long as the wiring is clean, secure, away from heat, with good connections...that motor will run. Aside from the tinkering that Ive wanted to do..my swap has required nothing. Until I killed it haha. Got in every day, fired up and went.

2. It runs....well...fantastic haha. Tons of power all over the RPM range. Docile around town when I want it to be. And awesome MPG espeicially on long trips. People usually call me a liar when I tell them I touch on 30mpg avg during trips down to the shore. The car just slides through the air so well and the gearing is good and everything just works well together.

3. NO REGRETS. My only regret is that I didnt build the motor from scratch. I bought a donor car that was already built. It saved me a TON of money, and the motor was great. But I missed the satisfaction of building the motor. My other regret is putting the dang air filter so low and driving through a huge puddle. Now I get my chance to build the motor at least haha.

I can say with confidence...if you do the swap, you will not look back. There is so much info out there right now, that doing the swap is almost a no brainer from a tech standpoint. The TPI and GenI motors have their place. If I had a low mile, clean, unmolested TPI car, I would probably leave it TPI at this point. Ide love to own one along side of my LS1 swap car. But for my pavent beater...LS1 all the way.

J.

camaro1185

Thanks for the responses guys. It seems like everyone with tpi's are having the same problems I have with mine. In fact, ghetto, mine is doing exactly what you described. While I have not had problems with my sensors or relays, and the car has NEVER not started (except for once). It seems like my wiring pigtails seem to have bad connections, my engine seals are shot (probably from sitting for 8 years) and my auto tranny doesn't know what to do or when to shift.

The cost and the swap itself really doesn't bother me, but part of me does not want to give up that low end torque.

The other thing on my mind, is that most of the LS1 cars around here have been beaten to within an inch of their lives, and worry about buying a LS1 drop out due to that. That brings up a whole new set of problems from lost compression and would require basically full rebuild on the motor. This is why I have contemplated getting a lower mileage 5.3 or 6.0, because I figure truck motors probably haven't been put through the hell the LS1 motors have. I know that this route would in the end costing more.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

There are still plenty of decent LS1's out there...without too much abuse. A 6.0 is nothing to sneeze at. Its what Ive been looking for. If you can find a complete LS1 that maybe has issues with good heads and all the accessories, and then get a 6.0 short block, you can combine all the f-body LS1 stuff with the 6.0 shortblock and have a decent runner. They respond very well to a little compression bump and a good intake/exhaust.

As for the low end torque... Dont worry about that You will be more than satisfied. If you really want the motor to run how you want, get yourself started with a motor set up. Then talk to Patick G, or some of the other cam guru's. Mostly on ls1tech. They can spec you a cam and get your power range where you want.

I dislike my power band right now. I dont make much off the line. But...at 3k its ripping the gates of hell open. It does help me launch, and keeps the car more managable around town. I dont have to worry about the rear kicking out just pulling away from a light. Especially in the rain... Its a nice trade off. But...the car doesnt make its fun power until way up in the RPM, and I just cant drive it like that very often. Draws a little attention haha.

Point is, you can get yourself set up and have a motor that does everything you want and more...Im sure.

J.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

That's exactly why I wound up spending the extra cash and building a stroker. I love the TPI torque that I got from my warmed over Corvette. The torque was instant, and it was brutal. I've been assured by numerous folks that my 402 is going to exceed the torque of that TPI motor at ALL RPMs, and probably make close to twice the maximum horsepower.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

Haha...you sound like me 5 years ago...Trust me, you won't miss it one bit. The first time you tag the rev limiter on the LS motor will erase any "low end torque" regrets. I was shocked at how hard the LS1 pulled right up until the rev limiter after I did my swap I would keep hitting it by accident because it comes so quick. I was used to the old TPI motors giving you ample time and warning that it was thinking about coming into the same zip code as the rev limiter.

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

AND still be streetable with reasonable MPG ( if an M6) in relation to what the car will do with your foot in it

Technology is a beautiful thing!

J.

89ROC-Z

iTrader: (7)

my 305 was torque-less even on a 100 shot compared to my trans am...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Not so much regrets, but,

"Wish-I-woulda...":

1) ...gotten the Hawks LT headers Jet Hot coated on the LS1/4L60E car (I did for the LS1/T56 car).
2) ...not been so intimidated by the wiring and pulled the harnesses apart to remove unused circuits and lengthened them to get the PCM into the passenger compartment where it belongs and replaced any burnt/chaffed/dinged wires in the process.
3) ...not tried the torque-arm eliminating ladder-bar conversion on the LS1/T56 car (which was for the purpose of custom true duals exhaust, upon which I wasted about a grand & a half).
4) ...not tried to build up the 10-bolt in the LS1/T56 car (which wiped out the gears on the 2nd pass at the track) instead of just spending that money on a 12-bolt or S60 (wasted a little over a grand doing what I did).
5) ...gotten a 12-bolt or S60 or Strange or Moser 9" instead of the 9" I did get for the LS1/T56 car (which broke the BMR Trak Pak torque arm adjustment link via side-to-side fatigue) - another $500 or so down the drain there.
6) ...not bothered with a 4th gen aluminum driveshaft on the LS1/T56 car (it pretzelled on the 9th hit at the track).
7) ...had the Hawks LS1/T56 rear cross member at the start of the project (it wasn't available yet).

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Been there and done it with small block chevys, and as far as reliability and performance, the small blocks were good to me, but not as great at the LS platforms are.

My carbed 6.0 is 20 MPG with a big cam and 750 DP carb, it and my junkyard 5.3, both from the same scrap yard with used 200 dollar cams spin 7200 RPM each with no complaints, i drive the 89 RS daily, 44 miles round trip, it sees the rev limiter(7200) every time i drive it and the motor is stock, unknown mileage and doesnt complain.

My older SBCs, gave up the ghost in 6-9 months from my abuse, the 6.0 is alive after 1 year and 8 months and still goes even after putting a couple bottles of 150 shot of nitrous through it with nothing more to show than extra power.

5.3 liters are readily available and make more power than the old 5.7s all day, so the it is just that much easier to be tempted.

My carbed motors dont throw sensor codes, but that is a different debate, a EFI swapped LS is just better, plane and simple, but the work to get it done depends on your 1) wallet or 2) capability and the combination of the two,

camaro1185

Bringing this back....

Long read but worth it!

Quick back story. I bought my car May 2009, it had been sitting for 8+ years and didn’t run. I had it towed home, and after blowing out the fuel lines, adding new fuel, tune up, battery, and fluid changes it fired up and ran great (76K original miles on the clock). I think I put 1300 miles on it or so (was not my dd, and needed to move a couple cars to get it out of the garage when I did want to drive it)

2010, I painted the car, and just never wanted to run right that whole year, put maybe 300 miles on it that year.

This past year it still wasn’t running as well as it could but was putting miles on it slowly. It seemed like I was wrenchin’ on it after every drive to fix this or that.

When I started this thread I was completely fed up with how my car was running (or not running) and not being able to solve the problem even after replacing numerous things (put lots of money into it and barely drove it). When a problem came up, I did all the standard checks of fuel pressure, checking how the plugs looked, codes etc etc. Everything always seemed to check out but it ran like poo (well at idle, never had a problem once it was driving down the road)

I brought it to get the emissions done, and was watching the guy. He for some reason had the car running for what seemed like 20 minutes just idling there. When he finally went to put it in drive to do the test it stalled. He started it again and finished the emissions (passed with flying colors btw). On the way home from the emissions, wondering about why the car stalled during the test, a landscaping truck and trailer pulled out in front of me and cut me off. I hammered the brakes and as I went to get back on the gas it was sputtering, back firing etc. It was just one of those things where you know instantly what was causing the problem. I knew it was fuel related. I babied it home and it never gave me a problem again. After many fuel related checks, everything seemed ok, and could not re-create the problem no matter how many times I went out and hammered the brakes to see if I could get it to sputter again. Not being able to let go of how it stalled at the test, almost stalling on the way home and wanting a reason why, I continued to drive it just around town. Then it happened again. One Saturday I finished doing my errands and as I turned into my driveway, it sputtered and then died. I started it and it just wouldn’t move very far. I called my gf out of the house and had her steer as I pushed it into the garage. I decided to replace the fuel pump, which was the only fuel related component of this car I have no replaced (other than the lines). Fast-forward a week later, I have a new Walbro pump in there and the car has never run as well as it does now. Since that day, I have daily driving it (only in the nice months) and have not had a problem

With that said, I have since day 1 been on the quest for more power, but also be very reliable enough to continue it as my summer daily driver. I have run the number SO many times, and building the SBC has always come out being a bit more expensive than a cammed LSx motor. I plan on driving it in stock form and putting some major miles on it to make it worth while all the money I put into it, but be on the lookout, maybe in the next couple years I will be joining you LSx guys.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

very interesting thoughts in here. i was wondering if anyone would like to comment on an SBC running on LS1 EFI here? i'd really be curious what people have to say about that.

BlueZee28

iTrader: (30)

LSx ignition on a small block Chevy is a waste of time and money. You are still using old technology as far as heads and intakes are concerned. Also the front/rear/oil pan seals are much better on the newer motors as opposed to an SBC. General maintenance is easier on an LS1 because everything is easier to get to and replace. I can change my plugs and wires in 10 minutes, the starter in 3 minutes, intake gaskets in less than 5 minutes, water pump in about 15 minutes, etc.

ownor

iTrader: (5)

alright, thanks for your reply. however if mechanical reliability is not a big issue on SBCs (or do you think it is?), i don't see why it wouldn't be beneficial to change the car over to LSx pcm electronics (SFI+ignition). you get the big leap in technology as far as driveability, fuel economy and emissions go, and the reliability and servicability from the involved electronics.
i hear what you're saying on the engine itself though. maybe this electronics swap can be an intermediate step to go LSx?