When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
Rear-ended on the driver side. Guy almost went around me.... but not quite. Somehow translated energy forward to crack the body by the door too (appears to be an old spot of bondo). Not catastrophic by any means but probably enough to exceed the Blue Book value of the car. Seeing that the VIN is a base model V6 the Blue Book isn't much.
Originally Posted by Biledriver
I cant belivable I've had my bird since I was 17 and can't imagine it gone. Hope yours is saveable.
Ditto... had mine since I was 18. First accident of my life with 28 years of driving behind me. Would have rather been smacked in my truck for sure.
So the news I was going to share tonight before this all happened is I weighed the car and I was kind of shocked it is a portly 3500 pounds without me in it. I guess I packed on a lot of pounds with those luxury seats, chassis stiffening, 12 bolt, and T56 trans.
The reason I got the weight is because I have always suspected my engine is an under performer. The dyno results were 480 RWHP but the curve is entirely unnatural and I don't believe that data. My camshaft supplier doesn't believe that curve either and wants me to get on a Dynojet so he can see what the engine is doing before we consider making any changes. Now with the weight and trap speed known I made an estimate of HP and it does seem the engine is an under performer. I swear it is leaving 50 Hp (crankshaft) on the table somewhere.
Something else to think about over winter, I guess.
.. a portly 3500 pounds without me in it. I guess I packed on a lot of pounds with those luxury seats, chassis stiffening, 12 bolt, and T56 trans.
By comparison, my Coupe weighs in at 3340 lbs. No driver.
Half a tank of fuel.
Spohn SFCs.
Iron heads.
Dana 44.
No power anything (as in windows, seats or antenna).
Fiberglass hood.
No GFX.
35 lbs of Dynamat.
My Firebird is also a base model coupe with air conditioning. I have already reduced weight a bit with tubular K-member, A-arms, plastic fuel tank, and no spare tire.
I'm not willing to ruin the car by removing interior parts so it is what it is.
Primary weight add-ons were,
* '99 TA seats
* T56 and Quicktime bellhousing
* Strange 12 bolt
* Tubular torque arm
* Outer and inner subframe connectors
* 6 point roll cage
* Modern disc brake conversion (may be an insignificant factor to note)
* 17x9 cast aluminum wheels and associated tires
I guess it is reasonable to think this adds up to the differences between our cars.
Buy it from them real cheap. Find another car and swap parts. U don't want a [hit] car!
find a real clean 92 camaro. Cage it first than swap all parts. And turbo time!!
If anybody has links to comparable cars for sale then I would appreciate having it. I will need that for insurance to establish actual cash value. Thank you!
If anybody has links to comparable cars for sale then I would appreciate having it. I will need that for insurance to establish actual cash value. Thank you!
Kbb.com has a classic auto blue book on the public site. Also hagerty insurance has a very good valueation too on there site but you have to register a user account to save and print it...
Thanks for trying to help but that is not what I asked for and not what I need. Those kind of sites focus on cars as equipped from the factory. I need comparables.
It really depends on the insurance that bad thing about thirdgens is that there is a big gap in-between car values majority are sold 8k range for example and or 12k range so its hard to find accurate cash value on your car on the insurance side vs a 69 Camaro , best option is to get a car appraisal and then like stated above receipts for everything done best place also would be eBay on past cars sold but I tell you from experience many insurance minus classic car will give you way low cash values and will have to fight that so you going to need a lot more than just that possibly
classic car insurance give you a quote on classic cars and generally are higher but mean nothing unless you actually have that type of insurance
From experience it is a hassle and you need a lot of concrete info on proving your case its not pretty and def a hassle and pain
what's going against you is its a base v6 and that's really going to hurt cash value and they will only add so much to aftermarket parts at fair value prob don't want to hear this but best solution would be a auto accident lawyer to squeeze out more but you have to pay $$ so does it out weigh to how much more you getting for paying for service
eBay is your best bet because it shows history of sold cars that are similar and only bet craigslist is hard to prove actual sold price
Originally Posted by QwkTrip
The damage exceeds the value of the car by blue book, so I have to go through antics of proving the car is worth more and worth fixing. What a hassle.
Last edited by Zach/90\irocZ; 08-25-2017 at 08:51 PM.
Yes, I am chasing all routes concurrently. Helping the insurance company with comparables, adding up receipts, and I have a certified appraisal scheduled as well. I will be successful, it is just a hassle.
The problem with receipts, as car guys know, we do a lot of cash deals or PayPal. PayPal only goes back 2 years and I bought a lot of things before that. I did manage to assemble about $13,000 in receipts, regardless. It helped that I found receipt for transmission and cage work.
I used to keep track but as the years rolled by I began viewing it like a cash hobby. I either have some extra money for the hobby or I don't. The cumulative spent over time became irrelevant. I guess that's the unique viewpoint of a very long-term owner.
And.... my Speedhut gages arrived. This started out as just a desire to have a more accurate tachometer but snowballed into a whole set of gages.
These are the 4" gages. Right now I burry the stock 120 mph speedo in the 1/4 mile. This 140 mph speedo should be sufficient for anything I ever do, and the numbers are still spread apart far enough that it is easy to read with a glance of the eye. I don't really care for the dual gages being oriented vertical so I might turn them to be horizontal like the stock gages. Have not yet sorted out how I am going to mount these in the gage pod but there are a few threads on this site with good ideas.
The reason I went with Speedhut is because of the tachometer. It has a built in shift light. The LED lights are programmable to sequence by rpm intervals, but I'll just light 'em all up at the same time so it is obvious when to shift.
Even though I haven't given thought to mounting, I have given a lot of thought to wiring. The Speedhut gages have their own power inverter and dimmer dial for lighting, so I had to find a power source in the car that switches on with lights but is full system voltage (not on the factory dimmer). I found that power source, and associated ground wire, at the connector for fog light switch. My car does not have fog lights so that part of the wiring harness is open for use. I also needed to find a key-on +12V power source to power the gages. I will simply recycle the original keyed power source at the gage pod (Connector C1, Pin 9).
Here is the schematic of the fog light switch circuit.
As far as I can tell, these are the pinouts at the factory gage pod. I have two extra wires that were listed as "not used". Not sure what those are yet, or if it even matters. I will leave most the factory connectors in tact and still operate the factory turn signals and high beam indicator. The only alterations I am making is to run the sensors wires to the new gages.
I traced out all the circuits of the gage pod to make sure I knew what to touch and what to leave alone. I will have to remove all the factory light bulbs and this will cause me to have to rewire the SES light circuit because that is how I am currently turning on the alternator.
Did you get these installed? Wanted to see how you wired up the temp gauge if you used the speedhut sender or found another way. Also any issues with the fuel gauge part of it?
Did you get these installed? Wanted to see how you wired up the temp gauge if you used the speedhut sender or found another way. Also any issues with the fuel gauge part of it?
No, I haven't. All the gages are mounted in a spare gage pod but that is where I stopped for now. I have '98 Camaro temp sensor in my LS engine.
These diagrams might be the missing piece of information you need. This is for '88 Firebird (closest I could find). Things might vary by year and that is why I physically traced out my own gage pod.
Ok the issue with my temp gauge seems to be a result of me trying to use the 98 ls temp sender to run the gauge the ohm range is way off from the speedhut sender.
Looks like I'm going to have to get the holley 558-400 harness and get the ecu to run the fan.
Last edited by obeymybird; 08-30-2017 at 11:19 AM.
Looks like I'm going to have to get the holley 558-400 harness and get the ecu to run the fan.
Fan (single), or Fans (dual)?
If single fan then you could do the old fashioned temperature switch in the radiator, that is if you want to avoid using the HP EFI to control fan.
If dual fans then you might be interested in my method, especially if you have air conditioning. It gives a lot more flexibility than the built-in Holley fan controls. Post #191, https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...ml#post5828014
Regarding the fans or fans, I've just installed the Dakota Digital electronic fan controller, PAC 2750.
It works with whatever gauge sender you currently have and is programmable for on and off set points for one or two fans. There's also a fan remain on delay feature that can be incorporated.
Probably one of the best additions I've made to the car in a long time.
This is the exact reason I have mine covered for 30k. Haggerty ins.
I have tried Haggerty before and they won't insure me because I drive the car to work a few times a week in the summer. I know several people with Haggerty insurance and after talking to them I learned they are all liars.
Proof that I joined the ridiculously large club of American classic cars hit by a Mercedes. At the time it seemed like an atrocity had been done.... after a while it looks more like a small dent.
It looks like a glancing blow from the side but that was actually a rear ending that drove through the corner (bumper popped back out into shape). It damaged the spoiler, broke tail light lense, and put a fold in the quarter panel wheel arch and a crack near the driver door. About $4K of damage (estimated), but good news is that it is likely all cosmetic and does not compromise the handling & integrity of the car.
I have always suspected my engine is an under performer. The dyno results were 480 RWHP but the curve is entirely unnatural and I don't believe that data.
Still don't believe those dyno pulls from earlier so I got data from a different Mustang dyno. This one I believe.... but I don't like what it is telling me. Turns out the engine lays down at just 5K rpm! Again?!?!? This is deja vu of the first cam!
They were able to make timing and fuel adjustments to move peak power a little bit and gain 40 RWHP, but they said the engine just won't respond at higher rpm (and it should). They want me to double check the cam install.
Bottom curve is baseline and top curve is after some tuning. If I could pull 125 mph trap speed on the old tune, then I guess the good news is if I can ever get this engine sorted out then the car is going to be flippin' fast.
Just so we don't have to dig through your build thread, could you list your engine specs?
One question right off the top is did you degree the cam (as in the official sense)?
IIRC didn't you surprising discover that the engine was a stroker? How did THAT come about?
* 4.125" stroke with a 4.06" or 4.065" bore. Can't get down to the gnat's *** with a straight caliper in a round hole. Not going to sweat the difference.
* Thought to be 11:1 compression but not known. If wrong, then it would only be lower compression (not higher).
* Texas Speed CNC ported L92 heads. Thought to be milled 0.030 inch with 64 cc chamber, but I have never confirmed. If not, then they are 68 cc resulting in lower compression.
* FAST 102R intake, Nick Williams 102 cable throttle body
I'm getting some feedback from some folks at ls1tech that the exhaust is way too small. One person suggested I do a test to learn if there is significant restriction of intake or exhaust.
(1) dyno run with only Y-pipe (no exhaust)
(2) put y-pipe back on and remove intake tubing
Maybe a great idea but every time I go on and off the dyno it is a couple hundred $$$ for dyno time and tuning. I'd like to have more info to justify the exhaust theory before spending more money.
Honestly, my gut feel is it comes down to compression ratio or valve timing events, or combination of both. From what I can gather, L92 heads are darn sensitive to both. I've got to believe that Geoff at EPS knows what the hell he is doing. I'm going to share the latest dyno run with him on Monday.
I did have difficulty indexing the cam. I eventually removed a cylinder head to get my eyes on piston #1 and came to the conclusion that the crankshaft is keyed wrong. I had to advance the cam 5 degrees to get it "straight up". At that point all the valve events were lining up good with the cam card. I have better tools now and plan to check cam install again. Going to have to wait though until my back heals. Been slowing me down a lot the last month.
Have you done a compression test? The cranking pressure is a fairly accurate indicator of the dynamic compression. That'll give you some insight into one of your suspicions.
The cam events notwithstanding, and I've spent hours dialing in cams, making changes, repeat, etc., there certainly would have an effect on output. I'd be more concerned with piston to valve clearance.
That said, I think there's some merit in the exhaust being sub par.
Building guidelines state that to achieve open header performance (or within a few %) an exhaust has to be capable of flowing 2.2 CFM per HP (crank). With a single muffler, unless you're running a Dynamax Bullit or a Borla of 4" , you're falling short of that target. Having a single exhaust myself and suffering, I've researched this subject exhaustively. Most mufflers are really quite pathetic in terms of flow.I've gone so far as to install a cutout right at the turn before the muffler. Back to back 1/8th mile testing showed about 1.5 mph improvement with no additional tuning. I think that's a telling result.
Anyway, something to think about while you mend up.
If you can dig up flow numbers for your heads and full cam specs including duration (adv and .050"), I can crunch the numbers through PipeMax and see what theory has to say about it.
Thanks for the info. I thought Borla X1 was supposed to be the cat's meow? How can there be such a gap between Hooker Max Flow and everybody else?
I hunted down paperwork for my exhaust system and the muffler is a Stainless Works S-tube, so basically a straight thru design (3.5" center-center). However, the internal tube might be only 3".
Last time the car was on the lift, the shop noticed an exhaust leak at the muffler inlet (carbon trace). We thought the clamp was loose so went to tighten it and found it was already tight. Didn't think much about it at the time but perhaps that was a sign of high pressure behind the muffler (at high rpm).
Here's another list. This one has the Borla near the top.
As for the test results themselves? Who knows? My guess is that they're generally unscientific and the results are open to interpretation. It does, I think, point in the direction of what flows and what doesn't though.
One thing I've considered, other than installing a full dual exhaust (like Hooker's BlackHeart) or a single 4" and massive muffler in the OEM location is the addition of cutouts (I'm past the loud exhaust on a full time basis and prefer a quieter ride these days). I'm really only looking for the performance when I'm at the track so taking the caps off (rather than the more bulky and harder to place electric versions) isn't a big deal. The object for me is try and get open header performance and the noise is OK when I'm racing.
As for the exhaust being the issue with your ride, I can't see it being the issue but certainly that single 3.5" muffler isn't moving 1000 CFM and is undoubtedly limiting your performance to some degree. Plumb a pressure gauge into the exhaust and see what you get. 0 PSI is your objective but of course that's unlikely. I'd have to go through my tech papers to find a realistic target value. IIRC it's in the order of 1-2 PSI.
I'm getting some feedback from some folks at ls1tech that the exhaust is way too small. One person suggested I do a test to learn if there is significant restriction of intake or exhaust.
Honestly, my gut feel is it comes down to compression ratio or valve timing events, or combination of both. From what I can gather, L92 heads are darn sensitive to both. I've got to believe that Geoff at EPS knows what the hell he is doing. I'm going to share the latest dyno run with him on Monday.
I did have difficulty indexing the cam. I eventually removed a cylinder head to get my eyes on piston #1 and came to the conclusion that the crankshaft is keyed wrong. I had to advance the cam 5 degrees to get it "straight up". At that point all the valve events were lining up good with the cam card. I have better tools now and plan to check cam install again. Going to have to wait though until my back heals. Been slowing me down a lot the last month.
I have the same exhaust. Here's my 3.5" single muffler and it isn't causing any restriction!
Could be the cam indexing. Could also be knock sensors pulling out too much timing.
LS heads respond really well to exhaust side porting. I'm highly suspicious that exhaust is limiting, in your scenario.
The real question is how much power can the muffler support without becoming a significant restriction that limits power? As far as I know, that is a 3" internal pass-thru, despite the 3.5" stubs on the ends.
I may have found more power in the tune yet again.
The shop I went to the other day didn't pay attention to what they were doing and overlooked timing changes past 6000 rpm. They updated the table between 3500 - 6000 rpm, gained gobs of torque, but everything past 6000 rpm was still at the old values (8 degrees less advance). I'm guessing that could cause power to lay over.... So I carried out the new advance curve to redline and we'll see what happens.
They also didn't understand the HP EFI software and totally jacked up my fuel map where they were playing. Closed loop compensation was removing 14% fuel trying to hit target AF ratio. I fixed that today too. Basically the only reason the engine made power on dyno is because the Holley system corrected their (big) fueling mistakes.
What I will give them credit for is recognizing the engine was running lean. They set target AF ratio at 12.3, and that allowed them to add timing as well. From what I am reading, L92/LS3 heads do like to run around 11.8 - 12.3 AFR. The old shop had me at 12.9 AFR.
Still a mystery why the engine has such a low power band though. There should have been another 1000 rpm in it, and that's where the power is that I'm missing. I like that I'm actually making some progress though. All I've been doing for the last year is yacking about the lack of performance, and yacking doesn't get things done.
With a supercharger is the the key word. Naturally aspirated engine is way more sensitive to exhaust size. A few psi backpressure (I hate that word, it's so technically wrong!) makes a lot of difference how the cylinder fills. Looks like 3.5" pipe is worth about 470 hp (flywheel) before it makes sense to jump up to 4" pipe, which is good to about 650 HP.
What I'm not sure about is how much power is robbed by not following that rule. I have seen examples of 70 - 90 RWHP on a stroker engine like mine. Easy test on a dyno (with and without exhaust) but everybody is holding out their hand for another $100 every time I look at a dyno. I want to make sure any more dyno time is well spent and not for one reason at a time.
Exhaust might be an issue but I am thinking I need to get the engine sorted first. Not convinced I'm there yet.
08-21-2017, 05:54 PM
I guess I packed on a lot of pounds with those luxury seats, chassis stiffening, 12 bolt, and T56 trans.
The LED lights are programmable to sequence by rpm intervals, but I'll just light 'em all up at the same time so it is obvious when to shift.
Again?!?!? This is deja vu of the first cam!
