Should be 12V Negative.

An original configuration would have been Dual Fans controlled by 3 Relays:
-2 Fans in Series for Low Speed.
-2 Fans in Parallel for High Speed.

 

Shown below:

 

Thanks, ill need to study this. How do I test for ground at ECM? My fans are only on or off, so running one relay per fan each with other own independent battery supply. They share ignition 12v and fan command from ECM. But they Re on all the time hot or cold.

 

The Fans originally used in this Circuit were also "On/ Off Only" Fans (Not PWM).

The purpose of the Circuit above is to supply 6 to 7 Volts to both Fans, making them run at a slow speed.
Then to switch to high speed/ full speed, by supplying 12 to 14 Volts to both Fans.

This Circuit should work with any traditional "On/ Off" Fans.

I will look up the PCM Pinouts for the two Ground Trigger Wires, and get back to you here.

 

That would be really helpful if you had that. Is your diagram for either the 411 or E38 ECM?

 

The E38 Black Connector:

-Terminal 17: High Speed Trigger (Dark Blue Wire).
-Terminal 58: Low Speed Trigger (Dark Green Wire).

 

The Schematic I Posted shows the Fan Wiring correctly, but is for a different PCM.

The Pinout I gave you in the Post above is Correct.

 

Ok, this is exactly how my PSI harness is wired as well. My tuner mentioned only one fan is controlled so I am using green as my trigger. Blue is not wired currently in my setup.

 

So I should be able to use that diagram with my setup and add a new relay. Do you know if the E38 ECM is preset to command this?

 

Yes the E38 is setup (unless someone has altered the Tune to remove it) to wire the Fans just as in the Schematic I Posted.

 

Theoreticaly could I just use the high speed setting sans a 3rd relay?

 

Absolutely.


The reason that GM went to this: "Both Fans On Low-Speed, then switch to High-Speed"...

Is because having the Fans start and stop over and over again, puts unnecessary stress on the Fan Motors, and keeps experiencing the large Amperage Draw to start the Fans.
This method of use prolongs the life of the Fans, and reduces the strain on the Charging System/ Alternator.


I try to wire all Vehicles this way.

 

I might try this so I don't have to tear up my current wiring. I would just abandon the other color.

 

I might try this so I don't have to tear up my current wiring. I would just abandon the other color.

 

Welp, my alignment has been wandering a bit and I just attributed that to harsh front suspension and crap roads. Last year when I was setting up my brakes the Baer master cylinder interfered with my UMI strut mount. I was too short of time to fab a custom one, so I did the right thing and used a $90 low profile set from ebay. I knew this could be risky since there was no tower weldment to optimize strut travel and support of the flat plates. Fun fact, trust your brain. They bent just as I imagined. Badly. Back to a modified UMI unit.

 

That sucks a little bit, I was looking at those for my build, hindsight and all glad I didn't. I'm guessing these are more of the mild side of mild steel Could weld some gussets to them to help make them more rigid but there's no guaranty that'll be strong enough.

 

Even a stronger steel will likely still bend here. You are basically cold working it witch each hit of the strut. To your point, there isn't any rigidity to this design.

 

Would the QA1's work for your application? They look to be a lower profile compared to UMI's and Founders.
CPK106 (qa1.net)

 

I've looked at them before, and they may actually work but I'd need to get the dimensions off them to see for sure. Also, they only have camber adjustment it looks like. The center portion is non adjustable. I have a UMI set around and I already started cutting on one.

Actually it looks like it does do camber and caster. However, requires their struts. I have adj konis.

 

Do you think a strut tower brace that connects to the caster / camber plate would help resist bending? That’s how my LS strut tower brace from UMI installs.

 

The UMI ones are way stronger. Just the design itself makes it capable of absorbing more load than a flat plate. The structural cross section is significantly more massive than the crap ebay ones.

 

I was able to take the driveshaft out and look at the trans seal. I don't think I bought the right one the first go around. Fluid everywhere. I swapped in a new one and changed the fluid to ensure it is filled correctly.


Leaky seal

Hopefully not leaky seal. You can see how much fluid is in the underside of the car.

 

I cut a notch into my UMI strut mount and had it welded back up. A quick trip to the powdercoater and it turned out really well.





I'd say the eBay ones made from chinesium or iranium didn't work out.

 

That’s a great idea cutting the strut tower for added clearance!

 

Yeah, there was no way to align the car with the aftermarket brake reservoir. These will also allow me to run the correct height for the koni's. I softened the settings so hopefully ride quality improves.

 

I also ordered the mass backed ACC carpet from rockato. It took a lot of trimming and wrestling around but I managed to get it in. I'm eventually going to switch to all black interior but for now the two tone will suffice. The stock pieces mostly go back in. The side panels hit the tubs towards the front but the panels around the battery fit well. Likewise, the stock rocker covers go over the DSE subframe connectors.

 

I took the car back to the tuner today for a touch up. Most of it will be street tuning corrections and may not require an actual dyno session. I still may push the issue so I can get final "its all broken in" numbers. It was very cold this morning so the tires were like driving on concrete. Good news is the interior helped with drone a lot. 6th gear cruising was wayyyyyy better and the drone only comes back when you hold a higher rpm. The car definitely did not run like normal, almost as if it was running on 7. These was a severe vibration in 6th and I had to cruise a gear down. I may have a loose plug wire from my steering bushing replacement. The softer setting on the front koni's combined with the proper travel height made the front end much softer. It is nowhere near as brutal as it was before. The rear end is still very harsh, and I wonder if my 20 year old cheap KYB shocks aren't helping. Probably not.....

 

Welp, trans still leaks profusely and stopped the show on my dyno tune-up. They were able to confirm my fan settings along with increasing the pump prime at startup but nothing else. I am also down a cylinder and they think my Granatelli plug wires are the culprit (they said they have had horrible luck with them). In talking with Tremec they told me to remove the seal and look for machined drain hole reliefs inside the housing. Apparently there was a period of time where this step was skipped in manufacturing which necessitates a new housing. Uhg.

Pics of the reliefs that should be there.

 

man - that sucks! nothing worse than having problems with brand new parts. it's so hard to troubleshoot issues like this cause I never think to check the new stuff that was installed.
hope you can get these items fixed quick so I can see your dyno results.

 

I have never tried Granatelli Ignition Wires before (I have my own preferences for both Suppressed and Non-Suppressed Ignition Wires after all these Years) but I have never gotten any negative feedback on them either.


The Tail-Housing Oiling Openings to the Rear Seal are Interesting!
I need to see if I kept any of the the Housings that were very bad Leakers, and re-examine them.

Thank you for the Information/ Heads-Up here!
Much appreciated.

 

O No my friend!

Always, always inspect new Parts, Components, and Assemblies for issues right out of the New Box.


The problem arises when you have no way to tell that something is wrong/ defective from the appearance alone!
This can really bite you in the A$$.

 

Well the car is back home so hopefully I can get it up on stands and take that seal out. This is where I wish I had a lift. It sucks getting under these cars. I ordered new GM wires and coils too. A replacement plug wire didn't fix the miss and my tuner says he's positive its the Granatelli stuff. Would be a real shame since it was so expensive. The little tuning he did do he said the car was much leaner this time after I replaced the air filter with a larger unit. Will definitely need dyno time to clean up fueling again. Trans leak is first.

 

I took the seal out (these cord ones are way harder to remove, boogered the edge a little but inside race is fine). Low and behold, drain holes. Uhg. I am starting to suspect it may be yoke related. Anyone have a magnum yoke on hand that they could mic the OD for me? Mine is 1.680". I filled up the slip yoke with trans fluid and have the shaft resting on its end to see if there are any leaks around the cap. It doesn't appear like there is any fluid under there but I have read some yoke caps leak. I reached back out to Tremec but I am at a loss at this point. I suppose I'll try a new yoke and then go from there.

 

Back when I was initially bolting in the drivetrain I bottomed out the driveshaft on the output shaft. No big deal, had it shortened and all bolted in fine. Well, I'm thinking I may have damaged the input seal in the tail housing. I have new seals, and a better yoke on the way (mine mic's 8 thou less than what tremec recommends). In the meantime it's time to pull the interior, remove shifter, drop the trans cross member, exhaust cats and pull the tail housing. Good thing I just buttoned up the interior....great.

 

After disassembling what seemed like my entire car I got the tailhousing off. I do not see an inner seal anywhere. I certainly don't see anything that looks like the seal I purchased. Anyone have any ideas?

 

I think Tremec has service manuals on their website.

 

After many back and forth conversations and picture sharing with Tremec, Bowler and Tick, they don’t believe anything is wrong with the unit I have. Likewise, the service manuals didn’t bring anything to the table either. I ordered a new Tremec specific seal and I think I found my “aha” moment. Which means, I’m probably still wrong. Believe it or not everything you see on the internet is not true, and the various rebuild and seal replacement threads and videos I consumed are misleading, or so it seems. Although the “upgrade” style ford C6 seals appear to be built better and higher quality than the Tremec unit, they function differently. The Tremec seal is a plunger seal and bottoms out inside the tailhousing whereas the Ford seal is flanged and bottoms out on the outside surface of the case. As such, there is a gap between the drain holes and the seal where fluid just pours into. The Tremec seal is thicker and bottoms out against the drain holes essentially capping them off. I “think” this is the root cause, but I won’t know until I get everything buttoned back up. I believe my original Tremec seal was damaged when I installed my driveshaft which at the time was too long. I believe trying to install that damaged it and I was lead to believe these alternate seals would be better. When I first swapped seals I did not closely inspect the differences between the two, again, seduced by the interwebs. If this ends up fixing my issue, I am going to feel pretty silly. Especially since I went against my normal judgement to evaluate all parts side by side before I use them. I made some crude visuals below which help illustrate how I am looking at this.

Tremec on left vs "Upgrade" on right (View facing forward of car).

Tremec on left vs "Upgrade on right" (View facing driveshaft of car).

Flanged seal

Deeper side of Tremec seal, no flange

Tailhousing case showing the bushing and the drain holes

Visual representation of Tremec seal

Visual representation of "Upgrade" seal



Tremec seal bottoms out in housing

 

Welp, the tremec seal did the trick. Drove it around to get everything nice and hot and low and behold not a single trip. Boy do I feel stupid. Likewise, the billion dollar Granetelli coils and wires are straight garbage. New GM coils and wires solved my engine miss. My tuner was right. Ok, time for Dyno....

 

Glad you got it sorted out!
Good luck at the dyno. Can’t wait to see the results

 

Thanks, I was pretty defeated there for awhile. Given how lean the larger filter made my tune, I'm thinking there is 15rwhp or more there. It will be warmer weather than the first tune session but I could land in the 510 to 520rwhp range. Will be interesting for sure.

 

I LOVE IT!!!


Great Images!...
AMAZING Custom Made Cross-Section Diagrams!...
And the needed but Short and Simple Explanation!!!





Great Job!!!

 

Well I wasn't able to get the car on the dyno again before the power tour, so I am going to put the smaller air filter back on so my WOT fueling is safe. It chokes the motor down a bit but at least it will be safe. Dyno will likely be late June or into July.

 

Cliff notes updates.

I fixed my fans, although I temporarily have them on a dedicated switch.

My AC system still holds vacuum and I was able to get the compressor to suck in the refrigerant.

I put my old tiny air filter on so I don't run the car lean. This is the filter I had my original tune with. I suppose I can live with 500rwhp for a week.

I have sketchy AC, R compound tires, it's 350 miles to our first stop tomorrow for the 2023 hot rod power tour, and it's supposed to rain the whole day. So that's.....that's fine. See you in Atlanta.

 

Well I made the tour without any major setbacks or breakdowns. A far cry from my adventures of last years tour. I went just under 1600 miles and the car ran great. I still have some tuning bugs but I managed to get around 21.5 mpg which was certainly shocking. A few observations;

• I need to get my AC working. The system took a charge and it appears the compressor is kicking on, but it does not cool. Need to dig into this. Car was noticeably cooler though with the interior in place but still really hot to drive. How do our cars have massive windows yet little air passes through them.
• Decell fueling is an issue and the car likes to stall when you push in the clutch at highway speeds. Will get cleaned up at next tune.
• The front end feels very "floaty" at high speeds (100+). I don't like that. My koni's are on the softest setting though. May need to change that, or upgrade to stronger springs in the weight jacks.
• Despite having the DSE steering shaft, sweet mfg gear box, and upgraded column bearing, I have slop in the wheel. I do not like this one bit. Things need to be tighter. Need to dig into this.
• The car handles scary good. This trip had hundreds of miles on switch back roads of Tennessee and Kentucky. Car was glued to the road, point the wheel and it goes. Zero understeer, maybe a touch oversteer.
• Oil temps still concern me. They would reach 240 deg and stay there unless the engine wasn't under cruise load. Water temps would run around 195 when moving and never go above 210 when stopped for long periods of time (fans on and avg outside temp was high 80's). I'd like to think if my cooling temps are ok, then my oil temps shouldn't be an issue. I may look at going with a bigger oil cooler and or alter my oil thermostat. It may be time to ditch the -20AN cooling lines too. They are very narrow compared to traditional coolant hose.
• The 10 bolt survived. I never launched the car from a dig, but did do some hard off idle first gear pulls. With these RE71's, there was zero spin and put a tremendous load on the rear.
• After looking at other exhaust setups on the tour, I have an idea to incorporate some Borla resonators inline of my exhaust. Drone and noise are still very much a problem. There was a 650hp LS7 firebird on the tour with a, crappy hack job, albeit dual 3" that was quieter than mine. More work to do here.
• My sideview mirror almost fell off after the untouched hardware started to back off. 35 minutes with a the door panel off and a few oat sodas fixed that in the hotel parking lot.

The saga continues.........

 

Good results overall.

This is the Power Tour I presume? You would recommend it?

 

I've done 5 or 6 Power Tours in a row now, with the last two being in the Camaro. Last year was a disaster as it was a billion degrees and I had all sorts of bugs to work out with the car. This year was dramatically different. As for recommending it? Yes. It can be expensive with hotel, gas and food bills pilling up, but it is a great way to have a vacation and enjoy your hobby at the same time. Some folks bring their entire family along, while others, like me, use it as a guys trip to escape the wife and kids. We travel in a crew and enjoy plodding along the routes they assign and doing occasional stupid stuff with the cars. I think there were over 7k cars this year, so the roads are packed with hot rods wherever you look. Also, the Hotel parking lots become mini car shows as the tour sells out everything in its path. You will see all kinds of vehicles from home made, classics, resto mods, exotics, right hand drive, and rat rods. Each event location typically has some form of autocross and or drag racing. Really fun to watch "run what you brung". Nothing like seeing a C7 ZR1 or a GT500 run neck and neck with a cummings swapped square body down the quarter mile. Although the late 80's Chrysler Lebaron vs the 90's Del Sol was also spectacular.

 

These guys are runnin' more my speed (stock 305 TBI).

Thanks for the reply. It's one of those events that is on my oldest brother and I's bucket lists. And with age, we're getting down to a point where you might be able to count our available summers left on your fingers. Maybe throw in a toe or two....you just never know.

 

I don't hear Chuck complaining so guessing he didn't ride shotgun this year?

 

Oh, he still complained. He drove his ATSV while his Camaro is in full fledge restoration mode. However, our convoy was excited that their windshields weren't covered in trans fluid.


This was day 2 maybe. Dusty cars. ZL1, M6 ATSV, Camaro, my SS daily driver, 04 terminator

 

To be fair I'm still complaining about last year.