I have a Powermaster starter that I bought from Summit Racing, part number PWM-9509. Bought it for the ability to rotate to fit with headers, but point is I know if fits F-body housing and it's also been working okay for 6 years.

Based on the little bit I've heard, it kind of sounds like the pinion gear is milling on the flywheel (running not engaged). There are multiple reasons why this might occur but the typical reason is gear backlash too tight. Normal backlash between gears is less that 0.5 mm so it's extremely sensitive to radial positioning of pinion gear to flywheel. Any slight misalignment of starter could cause it.

Starter is oriented by placement on engine block. Having to grind the flywheel housing makes things sound real fishy like you have a geometry issue, not a starter issue.

 

These are my thoughts exactly. I'm 90% certain I have an alignment issue. In a last ditch effort I did some weight reduction on the end of the starter that inserts into the bellhousing to eliminate any seating issues. Although, I am not thinking that is the area I am fighting. I do think its closer to the fit between the face of the starter that mates to the bellhousing. I will try the LS6 starter (just need some time) and then will go aftermarket.

 

What does your ground circuit look like? I also have the battery in the "truck" with 1/0 wire, but it is full length and used only for starting the car with a solenoid also in the back. The ground circuit is the same gage and full length with terminals at the rear frame rail, firewall, front frame rail, and the engine. The alternator powers the car and charges the battery through a 4g cable with a distribution block on the firewall (pass through, 3 post on each side). I hope you can get this car to Power Tour, your so close. Good luck.

 

My grounds are as follows.

Battery to chassis
Engine to chassis
Alternator has separate 2ga feed back to battery
Ground junction to chassis (for all my gages, vintage air, etc)
Body harness to chassis

Nothing smaller than 2ga.

 

I am starting to think using an OEM starter will not cut the mustard. I tried the LS6 starter and although it appeared to sit better it still made the same grinding noise. The engine is hard to turn over with 11.5 static CR and full accessories so maybe it lacks the umph. Looks like I will have to go to a more powerful unit. I can't think of anything else. I am running 1/0 wire to a junction up front on the firewall and then a 2ga from there to the starter. Shouldn't be suffering from too much loss over that distance.

 

I went ahead and bought the powermaster unit. I am starting (no pun intended) to think the OEM starters don't have the Kahunas to turn over my motor. They may actually be internally self destructing if they can't spin the flywheel.

 

I believe you are on the right track. My stock truck LS starter barely turns over my high compression 6.0.
The very short distance the current has to travel (we are talking about like 3 feet here) would be negligible IMO, not that my opinion is worth much anyway...

 

-Battery Ground short cable to chassis.
-Battery Ground long cable to Engine-Block.
-Battery Ground long cable to Alternator.

Random loose Ground connections should not exist.
Any "Dirty Ground-Buss" Connections should go to one or two dedicated Chassis Ground Points.
Any "Clean Ground-Buss" Connections should go to a Direct Battery Ground Distribution Point.

 

So I have all this except my engine is grounded to chassis and not to battery. I've read you can do it either way. All my accessories and non engine related grounds run off a single ground bank that goes to chassis.

Can you elaborate on clean vs dirty ground buss? I think I slept through that class....

 

First we have to establish that there is a significant difference between Electrical and Electronics.
They are not one in the same.

Now, to keep things simple:

A Clean Ground Buss is ONLY needed for Electronics/ Data monitoring and control.
High Amperage Circuits and Circuits not pertaining to Electronics can NOT be on the Clean Ground Buss (they would contaminate the Clean Ground Buss).

Think of the Dirty Ground Buss as a large Ground Cable the length of the vehicle that has the insulation falling-off everywhere, is turning green with heavy flaking rust everywhere, and has horrible electrical noise passing through it (The Chassis/ Grounded Frame).
This type of Grounding is considered acceptable for regular Electrical Circuits (Sadly)...
However, it is NOT acceptable for Electronics (High-Amperage, Radio/ EMF/ Interference, EST, Voltage-Spikes/ Surges, and Unwanted-Impedance from Rust, can damage Electronics, cause incorrect data/ readings, prevent data transmission, and control).

This is where a dedicated (Clean Ground Buss) Connection and Direct Connection to a large Ground Cable from the Battery comes in.
The PCM for example should be grounded directly to the Battery... Power also should be connected directly to the Battery through a Fuse.
This provides a clean unadulterated Connection for the Electronics.

The Battery actually acts as a Noise Filter/ Capacitor for Electronics that are Directly Connected to it.
Instead of using the Chassis Ground (Yuck!)...
Use a Direct Ground Cable, where Voltage and Impedance can be controlled.
As well as prevent any unwanted garbage from entering the Circuit.

 

With a Connection to the Cylinder-Block from the Battery Ground (NOT connected to the Chassis)...

Electricity can pass through the Ground Cable instead of passing through the Engine, Frame/ Body, Etc to the Battery.
The Ground Cable creates a path of far less resistance and is uncontaminated like the Chassis would be.

It is also Ideal to connect a Ground Cable to the body of the Alternator...
Connect it to the location on the Cylinder-Block, where the Ground Cable to the Battery is (or from the Alternator to the Battery directly).

Nothing should be grounded to the Cylinder-Heads except Ignition-Coil Ground to each Head.

 

Good info here.

The good news is that the powermaster starter seemed to do the trick. Well that and a new battery. I was noticing I was losing voltage rapidly on my new AGM Delphi battery. I was super frustrated so I went to advanced and bought an Optima (flame suit on). I am aware of the feedback on these but after putting it in, combined with the new starter, it cranked over. Tomorrow is the big day. The car either starts, or I burn my house down. Never been closer.

 

We want video of the first start!

 

I'm operating solo tomorrow so I will try to set my phone up to capture the moment. Open headers shouldn't bother the neighbors right?

 

I had my wife do the honors so that I could monitor the engine. It scared her so much that she immediately shut it off because she thought she broke something. She hates that car to this day. Good luck tomorrow, although I don’t think you will need it. Your build is top shelf.

 

Some Compression, a Camshaft with a decent amount of Overlap, and Open-Headers...
Music to my ears! God I love it!!!

 

Well, good news bad news.

Good: she cranks and fires

Bad: puked oil all over, appears to be loose fitting on oil thermostat. A lot of oil, which seems like too much for a loose fitting.

Can't keep it idling long enough to check fuel pressure. Pretty sure its too low.

Also, i keep blowing my main 250A inline fuse. I cannot figure out why. Any ideas?

 

I remember my first engine had an oil leak at first start up. It was demoralizing at the time. Cheer up though, it's not like there's a hole in your engine block... got to be something simple like a loose fitting, bad gasket, or missing plug. In my case it was a loose oil pressure sensor.

My first engine wouldn't stay running either because the Holley base fuel map was PIG RICH. Had smoke coming out the exhaust!

Is starter on the fused circuit? You don't want to fuse the starter, just put it on the disconnect switch. It is difficult to fuse a starter motor because of the range of current draw during normal operation. The fuse needs to not blow during the normal current transients. And the cranking speed of the starter will suffer a lot if the fuse adds much resistance to the cranking cables (as in milli-Ohms). The starter literally short circuits the battery at first engagement and then the current drops as the starter speeds up and builds back EMF. That means current spikes to several thousand Amps at first engagement, and then tapers down to whatever is the rolling current of the starter during crank (hundreds of Amps). The fuse blow time will be quicker as current increases. Could just be the starter is spending too much time above the fuse rating during a normal crank event. And it's only going to get worse in cold weather as engine cranking loads increase (higher viscosity oil).

 

Also, because the main battery fuse is blowing, you know the problem is something essentially "non-fused" downstream of that (because smaller fuses would blow first). It's got to be something directly connected to battery cable without secondary fuses. The list of culprits is very short.

 

Now its blowing the Buss fuse as soon as I replace it. I'll sketch a diagram up later to show my routing. Battery goes through kill switch on positive side and negative side is grounded to chassis.

 

The kill switch doesn't have a positive and negative. It should just interrupt either the battery B+ cable, or interrupt the battery B- cable.

 

Correct. It breaks the circuit from the battery to the buss fuse, which leads to bulk head.

 

Feel free to call if you still have my phone number. This is one of my strengths and I can help with troubleshooting ideas. I work solo too and sometimes just talking stuff through with someone can help a lot.

 

Agreed 100%. I'll PM you sometime this weekend. My free "camaro" day is now over and I must Dad/Husband for the next few days. Ordered some various buss fuses, up to 300amp.

Eddie Motorsports steering wheel. Had to make a new harness out of the old horn harness. Wires everywhere still....

Barf....

It is kinda cool to leak oil out of a brand new motor. It's perfectly clear. RIP $100 break in oil. Hope 5-dinosaur-30 can hold me off until I can order more break in juice.

Car is burried in dust.

 

The Car is looking great!


As QwkTrip already said; don't install an in-line Mega-Fuse between the Battery Disconnect and the Starter Motor Solenoid...
It is more trouble than it is worth.

I do like to use a Mega-Fuse in-line from the Alternator to the Battery, instead of a Fusible-Link (I have seen too many start a Fire on burn-up).
Use the next Amperage-Rating above the Alternators maximum-output (example: 200A Output with a 250A Fuse).

Please post your Wiring Diagram, when you have the time.
I am assuming that you had to also run the Alternator Power-Cable through the Battery Disconnect?

 

I'll sketch it out tomorrow, beer already kicking in. As of now my alternator is wired to the positive side of the battery. I have the Holley alternator which I believe is 150 amps. I'll double check that.

 

Here is my wiring breakdown for the car.

Experts, do your worst.

 

Alright, a few things to start off with:

-Eliminate the 250A Mega-Fuse from the current location.
-The Battery Kill-Switch MAY NOT* work properly with the Alternator connected directly to the Battery *(Depending on Switch design).
-Ideally, have a Direct-Connection from the Kill-Switch to the Starter Motor Solenoid without the Junction...
or keep the Junction but ONLY connect the Starter Motor Solenoid and the Alternator to the Junction with 2AWG to both (an in-line 200A Mega-Fuse can be used with the 2AWG Cable to the Alternator).
-Use a separate Cable from the Kill-Switch to another Junction for the C100 Bulk-head, PCM Power, Electric-Fan Relays, Etc... or install a Bussed Electrical Center at this Junction and distribute power as needed.

I'll make a new Diagram for you later today with Positive and Ground Connections.

 

Also, where is the Battery located in your Vehicle?

 

Right rear. This is good info here. I will plan to make these changes.

 

What conditions do you need to pop the 250A fuse? Does it pop the moment it's plugged in, even with key off? Or is it linked to some kind of event?

Fuse does need to move or come out, but I'd verify the cause for fuse blowing before taking it out of the system. It might be preventing a fire....

 

Sorry, One correction...

How many studs are on your Kill-Switch?
I should have asked you before instructing you, regarding the Alternator Connection.

 

Two studs on kill switch. Fuse was popping as soon as i fliped kill switch to on. I got rid of fuse and now running alternator off kill switch. I'll dig more before attempting anything.

 

Perfect.

 

Don't be changing things up before verifying why the fuse is blowing. You very well could have a legit battery short to ground and you need to keep those conditions in tact until you figure out what's going on. Battery short to ground can cause a harness fire... it's basically a DC stick welder.

I would take the cables off the battery to make the system safe. Then you can use a multi-meter to check for shorts to ground. Multi-meter has it's own tiny battery for testing circuits that won't burn up anything.

* First check: With key off, check resistance between [the now removed] battery cable B+ and battery cable B-. I'm kind of expecting you'll see a low resistance short. If so, gotta track down the subsystem where the short is occurring.

* Walk up to the junction block and disconnect the battery cable from the battery side. Put multi-meter on that now empty post and check for resistance to Battery B- cable again. If short goes away then you know the short is in the cables you removed from the system. If short still exists, then repeat process by walking to the next junction, removing the cable, and testing from that empty stud to Battery B-.

Could be a broken insulator on one of your ring terminal connections (over torqued). Is there an insulated pass-thru stud going through your firewall?

 

Yeah, I have a painless insulated pass through bulk head. I'll give those shorting checks a try. Not sure if I understand how the buss fuse would work if its on the Alternator feed.

 

In general there is no point in fusing an alternator. The fuse is meant to protect the cable from severe damage if shorted to ground. The charging cable has alternator on one side, battery on the other. Both are power sources and you've got to choose which one is more dangerous --> The battery is far more dangerous, so the fuse should be close to battery to protect the cable from a battery short to ground.

 

A Mega-Fuse in the Alternator Cable operates exactly the same as a Fusible-Link in the Alternator Cable (as the OEM wiring was).

 

Alternators just kind of self-destruct and burn open circuit if shorted internally. About the only thing that's a serious risk is if the B+ terminal comes loose and flops around, but that energy is coming from battery when that happens.

 

A Fusible-Link (or Fuse) also protects the Cable if the Amperage demand goes over what the Alternator can supply.

 

That's harmless too. All that happens is the system voltage will drop to battery OCV and begin to discharge battery until the load goes away. Alternator can run full output for life, it just consumes the brushes faster. Nothing bad will happen.

 

Thanks gentlemen. On the plus side I found my oil leak. Apparently if you don't install an oil temp sending unit into an open NPT port on the oil thermostat, It will leak quite a bit.

 

Yes, this is true with a large Alternator Cable/ over-sized Cable...

However, with the OEM size wiring and no Fusible-Link for example:
The Voltage would drop and the Cable would get hotter and hotter till it burned... then probably fall to a grounded part and short to ground.

 

LOL!
Well that is good news!

 

I didn't see any parasitic losses through the main part of my 1/0 gage going to the junction. I got stopped for the day but should get back on it tomorrow. I will post an updated wire schematic. I have everything routed so cleanly, and I am out of new cable, so I am going to change a few things per your recommendations and go from there. Namely, run my alternator cable to the kill switch rather than the junction. Junction will just power starter and C100 (unless I can come up with a separate new junction).

 

I am surprised that an NPT Plug was not included, should you not wish to use an Oil-Temp Instrument.

 

I think it was, but I never installed it. I ended up using an oil port on the front of the block. I just never went back to plug it. This is what happens when you go at a snails pace. The good news is that it is impossible to get at, so I'll end up having to take the header off, or remove the thermostat.

 

The Re-Wired 12v Positive Power-Cables should be layed-out similar to this, based on the Size/ Gauge Cables you have:

 

Using Pass-Through Connections like in the Image below, make for great Fire-Wall transitions:

 

Excellent, this alligns with what I have been reconfiguring. Just need to add the bussed center. Any particular one you like to use? I have another positve gang for everything that needs key on power. Im running the c100 power to that so it only has power when key is on. The other c100 power inlet can go to a new buss.