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LTX and LSXPutting LT1s, LS1s, and their variants into Third Gens is becoming more popular. This board is for those who are doing and have done the swaps so they can discuss all of their technical aspects including repairs, swap info, and performance upgrades.
Hi All,
I tried this once before, but dunno' what happened to my post. So, once again.
I'm building a 93 octane street car. Just getting started. I bought a rust free, no accident, garage kept Z/28 in Phoenix, and drove it San Antonio. It's in the garage waiting on parts. I ordered a new 4.125 bore Dart LS SHP Pro block, and a fully built 9 inch. Those are the big chunks so far. I already have a twice checked, (in two states), beautiful set of GM LS7 bare castings I intend to use. I was searching for a cam kit, but got stuck at the lifter selection, so I'm waiting until the block shows up. I wanted to use tie bar lifters instead of the guides and spider normally found in the LS7. Whether they need to be V-band or not was the sticking point. I'd like to use a 4L80e too.
I'm learning as I go with these LS motors, and searching the boards for info. I've owned a lot of cars, (primarily because I'm old), and I had a bunch of time on superbikes. I also have an understanding wife, which I've found is a prerequisite for spending money on old cars.
I know there's a lot of knowledge on this forum, so please feel free to chime in at will. Thanks in advance.
Before you go about the drivetrain I would pick out what set of subframe connectors you will use and find a place to install them along with a six point roll bar-- Unless you can do the welding yourself. That engine will turn one of these cars into a twisted mess without serious support. We're talking windows not sealing, doors sagging or needing slammed shut, these cars can even rip the metal at the top of the B Pillars. Best time to install the SFC and a roll bar is without a drivetrain installed. Might not also be a bad time to consider a minitub to be able to tuck in a larger tire like a 315.
Tibo,
Thank you. You are absolutely right, and tomorrow the car goes to the fab shop.
In other news, my engine builder steered me to a site where I ordered a billet barbell. Something new to me, but he doesn't seem to care for the stock plastic piece. Still have to make decisions on a complete fuel system, electronics, gauges, and just what sort of horsepressure I can expect with 93 octane gas. Today we had a 'natter about intake manifolds with built in intercoolers, but I think with a 4.00 or 4.125 stroke, this thing would be a torque monster with a fairly mild cam normally aspirated. If we pressure feed this one, it will be via turbo. Still scheming.......
Cheers,
Frank
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As far as gauges go the only thing that is a direct swap is the Dakota Digital unit. GMan 3MT is running them with an LS swap and covers a fair amount about them in his build thread. Alternatively there is an aftermarket gauge trim piece that you could buy and install. However it is not a plug and play as you will have to cut some of the dash, wire in gauges and the gauge cutouts it provides are an oddball size that mainly autometer sells. RobGuitarGod covers that in his build thread. Or you could go the roll your own route and make your own trim piece to house whatever gauges you want-- I did that and covered it in my build thread.
It sounds like money isn't a bottleneck for this build so maybe look into the dual fuel pump sending unit that hawks sells for the fourthgen tanks.
Hello Again,
I've been shopping and draining the bank account. The Dart block, (Part # 31867212), has shipped. I ordered a Dart crank, (Part # 9-34640006125), and it has shipped also. I searched for what seemed forever for pistons and rods, and finally just called Borowski in IL. I had a very informative natter with Ken McCaul, and he has shipped me a set of Diamond 21557-RS pistons along with Callies U16300 rods. He did say the Compstar rods would probably be fine for what we're building, but I opted for the better set. He also took the time to explain the prep the block would need. We're trying to keep the compression ratio as close as we can to 10 to 1.
The Ford 9 inch is ordered and being built, and the complete fuel system has been ordered also. I opted for the Holley Blackheart LS swap pieces, i.e. the engine mount brackets, the tranny crossmember, and the x-member adaptor for the 4L80. I read the .pdf installation files for these parts and Summit sent me the needed, but not included, torque arm bushing, the Prothane poly tranny mount, and the Prothane motor mounts. I talked to Tony Candela in Gilbert AZ, (CE Auto Electric Supply), and he sent me the battery relocation kit. Like anyone, I'm trying not to make any mistakes, and so far it's all good. We'll see what happens. More to come. Of all the people I've ordered from the only ones I've dealt with before are Summit and Tony Candela. Everyone else is either a referral or just a new source to try.
Ordered the Founders product just now. Thank you all for the recommendations.
I'm reading everything I can on here about the different engine management systems. I get to start from scratch I guess, because the entire existing drivetrain is coming out. The MS3 Pro looks like a candidate. I'm fairly certain the Plug and Play systems won't work for me. Interesting info about the hardware.in these systems. Pretty slow processors compared to the current offerings in the PC world, and I cannot believe there is no BIOS, (?), update on the MS products to address more memory. Curious.
I talked to Tony Candela in Gilbert AZ, (CE Auto Electric Supply), and he sent me the battery relocation kit. Like anyone, I'm trying not to make any mistakes, and so far it's all good. We'll see what happens. More to come.
I own his book and have frequented his website a number of times. He knows his stuff but I disagree with his useage of using circuit breakers on the starting (or main) power cable. I think that because I had originally followed his advice and used them on my cable. I kept having the breakers trigger and then wait until they cooled off. After fooling with them for a few days I switched to the large fuses.
I own his book and have frequented his website a number of times. He knows his stuff but I disagree with his useage of using circuit breakers on the starting (or main) power cable. I think that because I had originally followed his advice and used them on my cable. I kept having the breakers trigger and then wait until they cooled off. After fooling with them for a few days I switched to the large fuses.
Thank you. The kit arrived today. Do you recall the size of the breaker he sent you? He sent me (2) 140 amp breakers that at first look appear like something seen in a huge car stereo installation. I dunno' what to think, but I can always go to fuses too if these aren't up to the task.
That's only 280 amps combined. I would switch to the large ANL style fuses. For mine I was using 0 gauge wire to my firewall and then a 4 gauge wire to a gear reduction mini starter and I was popping, repeatedly, one of the 200 amp breakers (I had two like you do) if the starting duration was longer than a second or required multiple starts. My engine is 11:1 with a decent sized cam.
It's been awhile, so I thought I'd post an update. The machine shop is assembling the short block. I'm pleased with their work. They're telling me I have a rotating assembly good for well over 1K at the crank. I suspect the first two gears will be useless if that's the case, but it will be fun. I asked them to gap the rings for 15 lbs of boost.
I can't seem to get the fab shop moving to complete the necessary mods to the chassis. It's been nearly 90 days. Teeth grinder. The 9 inch is here and is being assembled in my garage. I had to call Quick Performance in Ames, Iowa because the axles were too short. They got right back to me, said they found the error, and have shipped the correct length. I have to give them credit, they were great to deal with so far.
The replacement aluminum fuel tank, Magnafuel pump, lines and such are here also waiting on the car. I went with Auto Meter Ultra-Lite gauges in a new carbon look bezel. It came with the wiring. Looks pretty straightforward. What else? Oh yeah, the Founders stuff is here, as is the Holley tranny mount and engine mounts.
The next decision is the top end and the tranny. I waffle between GM heads and aftermarket stuff, but whatever I go with, it will definitely be a 6 bolt version. It would be nice to single source the heads, cam, turbos, and valvetrain, but I'm undecided as to who to listen to. I simply do not need a ~$10K mistake.
I've decided pretty much on the Holley Dominator as the brains for this, but I keep reading about all the problems associated with updating to the latest version. Watching that one closely. So that's where it is at the moment. Cheers to all,
Frank
I've decided pretty much on the Holley Dominator as the brains for this, but I keep reading about all the problems associated with updating to the latest version. Watching that one closely. So that's where it is at the moment. Cheers to all,
Frank
If you are going to use a manual tranny (can't remember if you said it or not) and emissions are not applicable I would suggest you use the MegaSquirt Ultra.
I waffle between GM heads and aftermarket stuff, but whatever I go with, it will definitely be a 6 bolt version.
Almost any LS7 style head is going to make a lot of mid- and top-range power. They tend to be weak down low though (weak is a relative term of course). The big bore LS3 heads will make good power too but more accentuate the low and mid-range torque. The stock LS7 intake manifold sucks so I'd toss that as priority #1. Maybe use the MSD intake or get away from stock style manifolds altogether. LS3 have great choices of intake manifolds for much less cost so that can be a checkmark in the LS3 column. If I were in your shoes I would give serious consideration to the MAST LS3 big bore heads.
The stock LS7 head suffers from valve guide wear. Having the heads "fixed" with new valve & valve guide materials isn't a fix at all -- it just resets the clock when you'll have to do repairs again. The valve guide issue will follow you for life. As far as I can tell, the best way to deal with it is limiting valve lift to around 0.6 inch. Items 1-4 below are all based on a stock head. Not sure whether the PRC heads have wear problems. Pay most attention to mid-lift flow numbers. That's where the dividends really come from.
1. As far as I can tell, GM LSx heads have a stock LS7 port with a Lingenfelter CNC port job. Nothing special other than it has the 6-bolt pattern. They need tall valve covers so say goodbye to your coil mounts unless you spend more money on Katech valve covers and mounts.
2. Katech just sends heads to WCCH. So don't bother with the Katech markup.
3 WCCH is quite popular with the C6 Corvette crowd. They rework and port stock LS7 heads.
4. Advanced Induction are the best for working over stock heads. They don't get much mention on the forums but that's where the pro's secretly go for their work.
5. Texas Speed (PRC) 265 heads use the same CNC profile as their GM LS7 CNC program. Only advantage of the 265 is you can buy off-the-shelf without waiting.
6. Mamo Motorsports takes a Trick Flow 260 head and ports it to 265. These are baddass heads for a driver and will thump ported GM heads.
7. The guys with the big cube engines seem to be leaning toward All Pro heads.
The high rpm's you'll be capable of running deserve excellent valve control. If you're staying with hydraulic lifters then I suggest Johnson short travel lifter. Opt for axle oiling if you want that last bit of insurance. Keep the valves light if you want more valvetrain stability at high RPM.
If you want to get even more wild, the Cam Motion low-lash solid roller is a sweet setup.
Thanks for the help. The plan is to use the 4L80. I've been looking at Jake's, but haven't made a decision just yet. Circle D with 3800-ish stall might work, but again, I'm still doing the head scratching.
F.
Thanks again for the direction. I've nearly decided on the TFS 260 heads. The pistons are 12 degree versions, and I'd rather be in the low and mid range torque wise. I really don't think I'll have to spin this one much to make a bunch of power, but I guess it depends upon the combination. More head scratching. I may try and talk to Mr. Mamo. Working up the courage not to sound like an idiot, lol. I must say, I bought the piston/rod/ring combo from Ken at Borowski, and he was great to deal with.
The PRC 265s show out of stock on the TX Speed site, but who knows. I've talked to them, but I guess I'm easily confused. Probably my fault.
I got a text from the fab shop today, and they have made the cuts, and test fit the tubs. Jolly good news. The machine work on the block is done, and they are doing assembly. I need to visit them for an oil pump and the lifters. The Johnson version sounds great, I just need to nail down part numbers. I think I read somewhere Maskin said this block didn't need a high pressure pump. More head scratching.
Anyway, thanks to all and I am amazed at the response.
Talk to Tony, no one provides better service after the sale. Ask him about his new MMS LS3 heads. They are slightly better than his trick flow heads but he'll make sure he gets you the combo you want for your goals. He also offers a forced induction package on all his heads which takes into account the effects of boost on valves, ect.
Okay, I talked to Quick Performance in Iowa. The replacement axles are due to arrive tomorrow. We shall see.
I'm currently agonizing over an oil pump. From what I read, the Melling 10295 is fine pressure wise for this block, (with the blue spring), but it needs to be disassembled and checked for casting flash and detritus which makes me think I'd be better off with something already ported and blueprinted. I found Hubbard, (out of business?), and Schumann, but would like to hear what you folks think would be best for a turbo motor.
Also, I ran across a new Dart part number, (11061080), for 12 degree heads. Anybody see a price? I cannot find one.
Talk to Tony, no one provides better service after the sale. Ask him about his new MMS LS3 heads. They are slightly better than his trick flow heads but he'll make sure he gets you the combo you want for your goals. He also offers a forced induction package on all his heads which takes into account the effects of boost on valves, ect.
Have Tony supply your oil pump to. He usually ports them for free and will supply you with the correct spring. If you already have a pump, send it to him and he'll ship it back with any other parts you order from him.
It's coming together. The machine shop has completed their end, and the balanced, blueprinted, and assembled short block is bagged in my garage. Quick Performance sent the correct axles, and the assembly was painless, so it sits in my garage also.
Now for the really good part.
I contacted Tony Mamo. He's great to deal with. We had some conversations about torque curves, and basically, he is supplying everything, (except the turbo(s) and their associated plumbing), to complete the engine. This motor should make 900 at the wheels easily, and my local LS engine guy says that's a conservative estimate. Tony won't take my grandkids in trade, so I guess I'll just have to figure out how to hide what I spent from the Commanding Officer. LOL.
I want to thank all of you again for the input. Bless you.
It's coming together. The machine shop has completed their end, and the balanced, blueprinted, and assembled short block is bagged in my garage. Quick Performance sent the correct axles, and the assembly was painless, so it sits in my garage also.
Now for the really good part.
I contacted Tony Mamo. He's great to deal with. We had some conversations about torque curves, and basically, he is supplying everything, (except the turbo(s) and their associated plumbing), to complete the engine. This motor should make 900 at the wheels easily, and my local LS engine guy says that's a conservative estimate. Tony won't take my grandkids in trade, so I guess I'll just have to figure out how to hide what I spent from the Commanding Officer. LOL.
I want to thank all of you again for the input. Bless you.
Cheers,
Frank
You won't be dissapointed. His service after the sale is second to none. Even late at night when your trying to figure out pushrod length. You better have a solid life insurance policy...
Hi All,
It's been awhile, so I thought I'd stick an update in here. The Quick Performance rear end is assembled and waiting for the boxing to be done in the back. The balanced and blueprinted short block from Mission machine here in SATX is assembled, and on the stand. The top end and nearly everything else is either here, or due Tuesday, the 6th from Tony Mamo. I have the tracking numbers. The original rear has been removed along with the original gas tank. The aluminum replacement tank is sitting here too.
The tubs from Wolfe Racecraft are here. I bought the unassembled version because they're 4th Gen tubs that have to be custom fit. The Detroit Speed sub frame connectors are installed. These are a bit of work, but they don't hang down, and Alex, (my newly adopted son, Lol), liked the way they worked out. Now for the frustrating bits.
I finally just went and collected my car from the original guy hired to do all this stuff. 4 months later, I had excuses but no progress. So, I found Alex, a third generation car nut who grew up in his Grandfather's, (now his Dad's), 10 bay shop. Great guy. I bought a welder, (Miller 215 Multi-process), the tanks, a grinder, and anything else needed to simply turn Alex loose on this job. 10 days later, he's boxing the pieces he says need it because of the cutting to fit the wheel tubs. We be cookin' now. I'm delighted. Lemme' see if I can post pics.
Well, I tried to post pics, but I've no idea why they're not in here. I forgot to mention, I decided to use the Pro-EFI system from the guys in the Phoenix area instead of the Holley Dominator. I have the complete system sitting here.. We'll see how it goes.
Thank you again for all your help with this project. It does appear that eventually it will be something fun to drive.
Hello All,
Just a note to bring the posts up to date. I'm stalled again on the completion of the wheel tubs. It's all there, but unfinished. Maybe I can post pics...
Progress is slow, but it's still progress. The tubs are in. The QP rear is in. I have the complete top end from Dr. Mamo. Took off the hood. The old 305 engine and tranny are out, and the mock up engine and tranny are in. I'm pulling everything from the engine bay, (hadda' re-attach the wiper motor 'cause I got crazy for a minute),. I seem to spend a lot of time just moving stuff around in the garage to make room for other stuff.
I'm seriously contemplating running twins on this thing, and the Garrett offerings are my first choice. I think I see room for 2 small A/W intercoolers in the corners down low. Have a new welding table for fab work. I will have to do some selective surgery in the radiator support area to make room.
It's been awhile, but the project is moving again. I'm here to update and try to solve the latest issue. The latest wrinkle involves the oil pan and windage tray. Still looking for the solution. Spacers/standoffs from Dart and others appear to require a different, (i.e. deeper), pan, and that affects the K member clearance.
Somebody has had to fix this. Notch the existing K member, get an aftermarket K member, shallow(er) spacers, etc. It looks like I have some space under there using the Holley mounts. C6 pan maybe....
As far as OE pans go with stock k member, you are stuck with the f body. It is hands-down the worst pan though.
The Holley 302-2 is a deeper pan that will give more room for crank scraper and windage tray. Holley 302-1 is even a little more generous but it's super tight to the k-member, as in might clear some might not clear others.
You would need an aftermarket k member to make any of the Corvette pans fit. LS3 pan has room for a scraper but not a windage tray. The C5 pan will clash with the factory a arms.
So what you need to do is pick the potential options and then call Improved Racing and talk through part selection for scraper and windage tray. They helped me put together a parts kit that would work.
Oh, I'm sorry. LOL! It's a ridiculously long thread now. Just remember that I'm a first timer with pretty much everything I try so usually not the voice of experience talking in that thread. Sometimes my advice is different from what I did.
alan91z28 has done a lot of builds and has things down to a science. He's got some good info in his threads.
Thanks again. I'm reading and researching all the posts I can find about the pan, windage tray, and associated stuff.
In other news, after talking with them I bought a set of headers from Stainless Headers Mfg. Inc. in Lake City MN. They're here and seem really well built. I opted for 2 inch primaries into a log type, with a V-band. Their site is easy to use. I'll try and post a pic of the trial fit. I'm not certain I can use these as received, but the product is nice. They're busy so it took awhile.
On the turbo side, Garrett keeps updating their product line. The latest SEMA vid showed the G30 and G35 series. Physically smaller turbos that make big power. Garrett is pretty good about posting everything they can about their products, and their Boost Adviser was right in line with what I came up with by doing the math. I think I've finally learned to read a compressor map. Maybe. The G30-900 or G35-1050 times two might just put the torque curve right where the car will live RPM wise with the correct A/R, (still scratching my head on that one), but I'm getting closer to buying. This is another buy that involves caution because these are a big chunk of money.
I need to shift parts around in the garage because the new cabinets have been shipped. I have to move stuff off the floor because I need the space, and the cabinets add value. At least that's how I explained it to the C.O.. I am a lucky man. Okay! Off to the shifting and sorting. Let's see if I can post a pic.....
Here's are some shots with the turbo manifolds. It appears these are gonna' be fine. The Holley 302-3 pan and the front cover are also there to check clearances. The pan fits fine under the K member, but the windage tray isn't gonna' work.
I talked to the guys at Improved Racing. They're sending me a Holley 302-1 pan, the full length windage tray, dipstick tube, and dipstick. The Improved Racing guys knew about the LS windage tray kit from Horse Power Research, and I ordered that from HPR also. My friend Alex, (who is worth his weight in gold on this build), says there may be room for everthing under the stock K member after looking at the dimension diagrams for each pan. We are about to find out.
I figured we'd get the bottom end parts that were needed under whatever pan it took, and then make it fit under a K member, stock, notched, or aftermarket. I also subscribed to some of the Power Adder threads. Thanks to everyone here for the ideas, and recommendations.
F.
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It's beginning to look like an engine! Trial fitment shot to ensure we had all the bits and pieces. The crockpot is from chef Mamo for lifter prep. Ordering more stuff today. We did find an issue with the header flange and the head studs. Will need to make some slight modifications to the flange edge.
I spent last week installing garage cabinets. It seems I suffered from a lack of floor space. It worked out well. Progress!
I did a dry fit outside the car with that pan. The Holley 302-1 pan barely cleared my stock k member with the UMI aluminum solid mounts on engine side, and Spohn LS1 stands on the k-member. It's so tight that it might hit some might not others. You'll have to run the brake line down in the rear step of the crossmember and install any clamps and screws ahead of time because there won't be any room to do it afterwards.
I ended up having to abandon it when fit in the car. Something really screwy about that combo that put the transmission above the floor pan. I ended up putting my BMR k member back in and everything fit again.
Thank you QwkTrp. I saw the picture you referenced. The 302-1 is here. We'll see how it goes.
I sent Mr. Mamo the piston to deck clearance for the head gaskets. I didn't have a 12 inch caliper to measure pushrods, but it should be here today. After pushrods, that should be everything from Tony. He's great to work with.
Here are some part numbers for other stuff coming Tuesday. I ordered fuel rails, (MSD 2723), for the intake, a starter, (PWM-9509), Cometic header gaskets, (CGT-C5818-030), and four steam line fittings, (TFS 30600613), that hopefully will work. Just the fittings, I will have to get the rest when I see if these leave enough room. I took a flyer on the 30mm ARP header bolt set, (ARP 134-1102), but they may be too short for the 1/2" flange. Also be here Tuesday.
Here's a shot of the steam fitting area.
Today, I'm hunting sensors for this animal. This is new ground for me. 58X Crank position sensor, (the gray one I think. Looks like a plastic part.), cam, (I might have this one already on the front cover), knock sensors and whatever else is needed. Injectors, injector harness are also to be sourced. Lots of stuff to drain the account, Lol.
04-29-2018, 12:27 PM
