I just picked up an 85 camaro 305/155hp spt cpe and I am deciding whether to run Stock or put another engine in and run Bracket. The car will be strickly for the strip and I would like to run low 12s or high 11s - (pretty ambitious). Is it easier to build a bracket car that is consistent or a stock class car. If I go for the bracket, what whould be a good drive-train combination (engine, tranny & gears). How about the suspension? Can I build the body for both stock and bracket and just swap engines depending on what class I want to run? thanks for the help.

 

In "stock" I'm assuming you're referring to Stock Eliminator. If you want to build a stocker then plan on spending at least 4 times as much money as building a typical bracket racer.

NHRA rates that 85 Camaro 305 as 150 hp. They claim it can produce 250 hp when built to NHRA stock specifications. That puts it at a weight break of 12.15 which is I/SA.

I/SA ET index is 12.10 in the 1/4 mile. That means the car must be able to run at least that number to qualify.

I/SA record holder is/was 11.26

Some may think doing that with a 305 Camaro is easy but don't forget all the restrictions they must follow.

Factory unported heads, Camshaft with .430" lift or OEM whichever is greater. Stock pistons, intake, carb/FI. Stock appearing interior. 9" slicks, Can't weigh less than the factory shipping weight.

The rules are very strict about what they can and cannot do. If you really want to build a stocker then just be aware of how much is involved. The best thing to do is go through the pits when they have Stock/SuperStock racing and talk to the drivers. Ask them how they can make a car go so quick with so little.

Building a bracket racer is much easier. All you need to do is build a car that's consistant. Speed means nothing in a bracket car. You can go out there with a bone stock car and run consistant 16 second passes and win.

If you invest money anywhere, it's to make the car more consistant, not faster, for bracket racing. Yes it's nice to go faster but it also costs more money.

 

Yes you can build the car to stock specs and swap motors. Cost is dependant on how much you can do yourself. I can hook you up with one of the better 305 motor shops (home of a pair of top qualifying, multi time record holders) if you're interested. My current bracket motor is fairly close overall cost wise to one of their 305 class motors.
If you're seriously considering a class car, best advise is to go to the closest NHRA Open series or Div'l meet and check out the faster class cars. Ask some ?'s but be aware that while most will answer your ?'s, few will tell you exactly how to get where they are performance wise. There is a bunch of hard work sorting the complete package to get where they are at.
I am currently doing what you're thinking of and I can tell you that while at times frustrating, once you get things worked out it is a pile of fun.
As a side note, my friend recently set the I/SA record at the Dutch Classic at 11.39 with his 85 Camaro 305/165 combo. Our 3rd gen Camaros can run H-K/SA & M-O/SA depending on which V8 combo is claimed and the year claimed. Naturally there are stick classes as well but most just run the auto's.
Hope this answers some ?'s. Good luck on your endeavor, it is a pretty cool class to run.

 

Thanks. I did some research on stock eliminator and it does seem costly and highly competitive. I think I will keep the 305 for a later date and build a bracket car first. So the next question would be what engine, tranny, rear-end and suspension should I go with. Is it worth building a 350 from scratch or buying a crate. I have a 700r4 in there now, is it worth rebuilding or are there better trannies around. What is the best suspension setup for the track. Can you recommend some good engine builders in the N.J. area. thanks.

 

I would recommend that if you seriously think you will do a stock class combo with this car in future, run a motor of similar et ability for class you'd like to run. Then work on the chassis/suspension set up to optimize it. Motor really only needs to be approx 400hp to run with the fast 305/165 combos. Just my suggestion but it has/is working for me doing things in this order.
Also, don't be afraid to talk to those with the same car combo in stock as you come across ?'s. Most will point you in correct direction to go while not actually telling you everything they did, hard to get guys to just give up secrets they worked very hard to find. Build the car itself to class rules and you'll do fine.
As far as trannies go, the t350 is a great tranny-use the low 1st gear set, as is the t200.
Suggest you attend the East Coast Stock Superstock Assoc races Dave Ley holds at Atco. You will find a wealth of info from those guys. Dave is a great guy and very smart in stock class racing.

 

Thanks. I was planning on keeping the car as stock as possible for future use. By the way I was at an Englishtown stock championship race last year and saw a lot of 3gen camaros. I talked to Jim Reid who seamed to be building 305s for a few people there. Is this the same guys you were talking about. He told me most people are running the 200metric tranny. Any good ideas on suspension parts for Stock Eliminator?

 

He's the motor builder I use. They are very good to deal with.
His number is: 1-781-857-2500.
I have been getting advice from him as well as a couple other very fast 305 guys, of course most of them use his motors.
The suspension set ups are fairly simple. Real good rear control arms, set of adjustable shocks/struts, drag springs in front (remember to cut 1 coil off them before installing), rear sway bar and remounted torque arm is really all you need to get going then adjust or try dif things as you find out how car works.

 

Keeping the car Stock and running in Stock Eliminator are 2 different things. Most Stock Eliminator cars would never last for long driving on the street. First of all buy a rulebook to look at all the restrictions before buying things you aren't allowed to use.

In Stock Eliminator the car only has to look stock. The back seat can be removed but carpeting needs to replace where the seat was. There are many things that can be removed such as heater/AC system but only the stuff you can't see. All the controls must still be in the dash etc. A heater delete plate covers up the hole in the firewall.

Many things can also be changed. You can remove the power steering and install a manual box. Headers and electric water pump drives can be used. Your LCA must be similar to stock with bushed ends not heim joints. The rulebook says that aftermarket torque arms can be used so a Spohn torque arm would be a good investment. Because a third gen covers the crash bumbers under the rubber covers, the crash bumpers can be removed. You can have SFC installed. You can change the engine mounts to solid mounts. You can keep the 10 bolt or install an aftermarket 12 bolt. A Ford diff isn't allowed in a GM car. You can remove all the windshield wiper parts including the motor.

The biggest expense is the engine. It's not just a stock engine with a special cam. It must be built with specific casting numbers and parts.

After all the changes the car must still weigh more than the shipping weight. Stockers will lighten the car up as much as possible then add weight where it's needed to get back up to the shipping weight. The weight includes the driver since the car can be weighed at the end of the track before you can get back to the pits.

I have yet to see a third gen stocker around here to see what kind of changes they've done. There's a fourth gen Super Stock car that's regional but that's a completely different setup.

If you really want to keep the car for Stock Eliminator racing then just run it the way it is for now. Don't start stripping it down or adding parts until you know if you'll be allowed to do it for stocker racing.

Stock Eliminator racing is mostly just bracket racing like everyone else does. If 2 cars from the same class go up against each other then it's just a heads up race to the finish line and the one who crosses the finish line first wins, no breakout. Starting yourself off in bracket racing will at least give you an idea on how to do it.

Some day I'd like to build a Comp Eliminator racer. I'd like to run A/ND, A/Nostagia Dragster. Check out this local Comp Eliminator Altered He runs in Super Pro when there's no Comp Eliminator racing and runs in AA/AM in Comp Eliminator. He runs high 6's and low 7's in the 1/4.

 

No, you can not legally remove the parts behind the bumpers, nor can the crash bars in the doors be removed. If you get pulled into the barn and they do ask you to remove to panels, those parts had better be there or you will get tossed!
The 85-87 cars all fall into classes higher than M (lower letters; A-M) which require a 6 pt roll bar and that is only reason back seat may be removed but as you state the area must be carpeted. Building the chassis/suspension to specs you will run it later while running an engine of similar hp is a very good idea since what works good at 12's or 13's will likely not be what you need to run 11's as far as suspension needs.
Be very careful what you remove from hidden areas.

 

My mistake. I read it wrong.

Bumpers:
... Energy absorbing apparatus may not be removed.

I stand corrected.

I'm just a bracket racer. My car is stripped

 

Lots easier to go brackets, but I can tell you class racing is a pile of fun. Those with lots of bracket experience generally will do better in eliminations as well.

 

good conversations. I am going to build the chasis for Stock Eliminator. I have read the rulebook and I think I have a good idea of what is legal and not. Some simple questons.
1. I took out the P/S unit and I want to replace the P/S gear box with a manual box. What manual boxes fits into an 85. Can you get it from the junkyard or do you have to buy it new. Is there anything special you have to do to install it.
2. I plan on removing the power brake vacuum. Will the brake unit fit right up against the firewall or do I have to do some customization. Do I have to buy a different unit?

I was confused about the rules for Front Suspension. It says for Stock Class "Must retain complete stock front suspension system as produced by manufacturer for body used. Lift kits/travel limiters prohibited. Sway bar optional." Does this mean the only things I can do is change the shocks and remove the sway bar? You mentioned using a front drag spring and cutting 1 coil. How is that legal. Is it because the front suspension system is the same (springs) and that you have to cut 1 coil to retain the stock height?

 

Yes, you can change the parts used; like the springs, struts,etc; but you can't add things, like the travel limiter. If you don't cut the 1 coil from it the front will sit too high.
As far as steering boxes go. The S10 p/u manual box bolts right in. You can also use a Vega box, rec you get the modified idler arm for it though, which will also bolt right in. Ed Quay race cars also makes a great steering damper kit for these cars. This is an accepted mod by both IHRA and NHRA. (Link is http://www.edquay.com ) These cars have a tendency to suffer shimmy shake on really hard launches and once you put the 305 class motor in you won't have the torque to pull through it in most cases, the damper will fix this.
I bolted a S10 manual master directly to my firewall and just redrilled the holes. You will need to shorten the pushrod. In retrospect I would get the adaptor plate with the rod as the plate will retain the rod in the event it pops out of the piston. Yes this does happen at times. If you do retain the stock rear for time being, get the 85 S10 7/8" dia wheel cyl's. And do eliminate the proportioning valve.

 

I was OK with everything up until the last 2 sentenances.

"If you do retain the stock rear for time being, get the 85 S10 7/8" dia wheel cyl's. And do eliminate the proportioning valve."

What do you mean by a 7/8" dia wheel cyl and proportioning valve? Are you talking about the rear suspension. I have to replace the rear end and suspension because it is all stock and not posi. Is it worth staying with the rear end housing and rebuilding the insides, or should I go to a totally different setup. I was thinking about 3.73, but I should probably wait until I pick our my engine, stall and tranny first.

Thanks a lot, I have a lot of questions and I don't want to make too many mistakes in the beginning. Right now the car is 16.62 (stock) and a long way to go until it is respectable.

 

The wheel cyl's are larger than the o.e. 3/4" ones. The bigger ones will give better holding pressure and are the correct size for the manual system. Also,eliminating the prop valve from the brake system will also give both better pressure and faster release.
The stock rear can take a fair amount of abuse with the correct parts. I still use mine. I have a set of 4.56 gears with the mini spool and the support cover. So far it has held up well in spite of regular 1.5x 60' times and the hard launches. Use yours for time being and go with a motor with more hp than what you have now. A t350 trans will work good too. If you can get your car to leave similar to how it will with the class combo, you will learn better how to make the car work.