graebz28

iTrader: (5)

Hey all,

After more than 10 years I finally able to afford the time and $$ finish my project car. We recently pulled the heads off (the motor has never been started - EVER!) and to my surprise saw no signs of rust or corrosion on the cylinder walls. The cam lobes still had assembly lube on them! Benefits to moving to the desert!

Anyway, I have a few questions. First, anything else I should worry about regarding the motors hibernation? The rockers were removed, so I do not believe that there are any concerns with the springs being warped from being compressed. The valves still have a dab of assembly lube on them.

I have a rough idea of the cam specs, but no cam card. I'm hesitant to set them myself, that is unless you guys can guide me through it. I still have to determine if the lifters are solid or hydraulic. There is a set pin in them. I'll post a pic soon. I'm more concerned with the valve train geometry and such.

Another question is what you guys are running for brakes? IHI, from reading my sig, you can see that our rides are pretty similar, hence why I invited you in and would trust your advice. I wanted to consider C5 brakes, cause I'm scared to commit to a full blown drag car when I could swap out the rear suspension and possibly road race it someday, but even as I type now I'm feeling like that it is too late in the game to do so. But the C5 kit seems cheaper than a front drag only kit. Will it fit with front runners?

Anyway, more importantly is what bore master cylinder you suggest,. I plan on getting a wilwood MC kit from Art Morrison since it comes with the rod. I already got the adapter plate from TRZ to install in right to the firewall. I pretty sure not to even consider power brakes with that much cam unless I spend tons of unnec cash on vacuum pumps and what not.

Folks running manual brakes, were to you drill the new hole on the pedal assembly??

Tire combination is another question. Should I stick w/ 15" rims. Should I run drag radial unti lI get used to how the car launces. I admit that I've never owned anything faster that a 14 sec car, and driven maybe some high twelves, but I honestly am a bit timid in launching a full blown drag car. I always immagined starting in second gear and slowly working my way to first. I just do not want to go at it like I did on bikes years ago and think that I can just get in it and flop the pedal to the floor the first time out at the track. Suggestion for break in (motor and driver) are appriciated!

Oh, the trans real quick, It is a fresh rebuilt 400, but not for a 600+ motor. Can I get away with breaking in the car with just a RM valve body. I plan to get the converter next, which opens another can of worms. I would like to be able to drive this thing on surface street or actually at 50 -55 mph on the highway. The track is less than 10 miles from me.

Thanks all in advance!!!

Mike

AlkyIROC

Pull the pedel out and drill a hole 1" higher. This increases the mechanical leverage needed for manual brakes and redirects the master cylinder pushrod to a straight position instead of the upward position used with a brake booster.

You'll need to fabricate a different mount for the pushrod. I fabricated a new pushrod and used a rod end to attach it to the brake pedal. Pics on my web site. I used a master cylinder from a manual brake S-10. There's a little bit of adapting involved since the F-body brake lines are on the engine side of the master cylinder and all other GM master cylinders have the brake lines on the fender side. My brake lines were also metric bubble flare fittings that I had to convert to double frare to use the S-10 master cylinder.

There isn't a huge weight saving by converting to manual brakes. The booster might weigh 5 pounds. The biggest advantage is the extra room under the hood. For a SBC, this isn't really required.

graebz28

iTrader: (5)

Thanks Steve.

I am not think of the manual brake swap as a weight reducer, but more as a necessary requirement for an outragous cam. If you wanted to, could you have ran power brakes w/ your 383?

AlkyIROC

I did. I converted to manual brakes with the BBC just for more room under the hood.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I wish I had more answers to your questions I'm really surprised to hear the internals of the motor are that good after sitting for 10yrs!! Personally I would dig in and find out exactly what type of cam your running first and foremost. If it's a soild cam weather flat tappet or roller you will need strong consistent spring pressure to ensure max performance and cam longevity so your not bouncing lifters off the cam surface. You should be able to pull a lifter and all the hydrualics I've run have snap rings on the top where the pushrod seats so you can disassemble, the solids I' have run do not, so that will be a quick item to look for.

If it's a hyd flat tappet, valve springs are very cheap to replace so I would'nt sweat it and just change them to change them so YOU know they're fresh and ready for service. You can also get a valve spring pressure tester to get accurate readings of what pressure the springs are still at, good springs should all read within 20lbs max of each other. Soilds require more seat pressure so knowing what cam/lifter set-up you have is essectial since if that gets screwed up bye bye motor.

Brakes, I'm just running stock GM metric stuff front/rear. Stick front calipers that came from factory, and metric calipers that came as a kit I installed on the rear diff. I'm very happy with the performance of these peices and they're the best brakes I've had yet easily making the 1st trun off slowing from 120mph. Also, 'm still running pwr brakes. I've perosnally NEVER driven a car with manual brakes that can touch the stopping pwr of assisted brakes-NEVER. I just bought a vacuum canister and hooked it in line with the booster and brakes have been great, no hard pedal at all. I've never tired it without the canister, but for $30 I never even wanted to not try it, results are brakes every bit as good as any car I've ever owned.

All the specs from the manual master cyclinders recommend a 6:1 ratio for brake travel. Like Stephen said, if you go manual, pull the brake pedal assembly and drill a hole approx 1" higher than stock so you get more leverage from leg power you exert to brake force applied. Most guys will run the MC for mopar set-up, but aalot are getting by with S-10 type MC as well, but again if you absollutely dont need the manual brakes, staying with pwr will give you better brakes period. Once I drive a manual braked car that stops as good as my pwr brakes set up I might change my tune, but unitl then I'll be a pwr brake advocate all the way. Especially given all the fabrication that goes into converting.

As far as the TH400 with RM valve body, that's all I run and I street drive the heck out of it. Word of warning, there is no more compression braking, so everytime you let off the gas, it's "go into neutral" so to speak. This takes a little getting used to since if the rear end gets outta shape, you cant just let off the gas and have the car correct itself.

15" rims offer more tire selection, but if your going big brakes, they may not fit insdie the rim. I have another post to the ET street vs radial, and again, best advise I've herd yet: "if you want to race run drag radials, if you want to win run slicks"

Motor City Mike

I have the 15/16" bore Mopar Performance MC on my car. It is a smaller bore than most, which builds more pressure. With 12 3/16" Wilwood front brakes and drums in the rear, it stops comparably to the stock set-up.

As far as the trans, I have a standard pattern manual VB, which retains the engine braking function. Since I have a ratcheting/lock-out shifter, I don't have to worry about accidentally shifting into reverse at speed.

graebz28

iTrader: (5)

Thanks IHI!!

Stock brakes you say. Wow!!! Years ago as I went to the MWET to visist my motor and make a donation, I ran across a guy that had a 89 Z that was really ***** out. I wanted to do the same thing he did, a partial tub that fit 12" w/ ladder bars and kept the stock tank!

Anyway, I found out later that he rolled the car trying to make the first turn off of the track which everybody related it to the crappy front brakes.

If you guys are running that setup, I will try it out first prior to converting to an expensive alternative. Just get a vacuum canister.

For those who want to run a mopar master cylinder trz.com has a mouning plate to do so and keep the master level. I have got one if someone would like to see a picture of it.

The cam is a crower roller, but I will have look for that retainer to see if it is hyd or solid. I should just be able to pull the timing chain spag off to get an ID #. Again, I know that it is a 630" 630" lift and they still have a similar one in Summit.

The spring pressure tools is a great suggestion. I'll check it out.

IHI, to you have any tips or good source to set the lifters on a roller? What about checking the geometry?


There are some pictures of the motor on the SW region board here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=276256

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Just an assumtion, but since this is a sbc and you listed the lift at .630 both sides it's a pretty good chancec it's a solid roller since that would be waay out of line for a flat tappet or hyd roller, specs are just too big for the lifters to correctly follow the profile.

That said, if you can get ANY numbers off the stick, call crower, or find some info and what they recommend for lash settings. I love my solid roller since there is no more mess with splashing oil....just warm up the motor and set them to specs from cam manufacturer. I imagine lash will be in the .020-.028" somewhere, but you ned to know exactly and sometimes they vary lash on int/ext side and you can experiment with opeing up or tighten lash to get more power out of your motor, but that's a whole nother bag of beans in itself.

If you dont have one already-BUY A STUD GIRDLE!! That kind of spring pressure and vavle lift will want to make the valvetrain flex. They are cheap, I got mine from BTE and am very happy with it, cheap and it works.

How I set my valves: (ihave a girdle and do my valves slow and unheard of by many so I'll get nailed on here becasue of it

Get the motor upto temp, I'll usually drive around town and go get a soda so the motor is good and hot.

Let motor sit for 10 minutes or so, pull both valve covers.

I work on one cylinder at a time, I'll put pressure on the back of the rocker arm -where the pushrods seats-and bump the motor over until the pushrod is down all the way-this means you on the cams base circle and valve is fully closed.

Insert the feeler gauge of pre determined thickness between the valve stem/rocker tip on the valve your working on to check for some drag. I like to set my valves so I can barely get the feeler gauge in or out-this makes for less frequent lash checks.

If it's loose/sloppy, I loosen that section on my stud girdle, loosen the poly nut set screw and then adjust poly lock as necessary to achieve proper lash, then tighten down the set screw until it creeks making sure poly nut stay in adjustment. I make everything gooden tight so i dont have to worry about it backing off right away from street driving. If lash is still right on, tighten the girdle back up and check again. After you install a stud girdle it will amze you how much it can vary your lash since it trues everything up, so always do a last lash check after tightening up your stud girdle.

I then move onto the next valve. and repeat this entire process for all 16. It sounds long and drawn out, but i check lash every Fri. before a race so I know it's tip top, and have gotten this process down to 15minutes start to finish. They very rarely need any serious adjustiment, but for consistency sake I have to know they are set exactly as they were the weekend before.

Don't skimp on the roller rockers either, everything I've ever read or been told from guys running solid roller, they all agree do not skimp on the lifters or springs since they the most improtatnt factors in making a solid roller live. I personally went with Comp Pro Mags since they are steel and will not fatigue like aluminum's will after time, but if you get some Harland Sharp rockers they carry a lifetime warranty so you can send them in to be rebuilt/replaced shoudl something happen. Many guys have great luck with the Harland Sharp brand.

They make an adjustible puch rod length checker and rocker arm checker to get you pushrod to be the right length. Both items work well, I like the rocker arm checker method since it's quick, but you need to install a light weight spring in your head to check it out. Main thing you want your roller tip to ride on the center of the valve stem throughout the valvetrain cycle. Wee've put together a few motors with goofy parts that actually had the roller tip riding mainly on the retainer-not good.

Not saying not to check, but as long as your using basic 1.52 rocker arms, "normal" length roller lifters, stock length pushrods "should be what your looking for. Just mock it up and see where your at.

http://quickperformance.com/Brakes.htm
That's where I bought my rear end from and he has this rear brake kit I bought and mounted it. $200 and I'm very happy with it. My 2 close buddies run Aerospace and Wilwood on their cars, after seeing all the fabbing they had to do to make the things work, I like mine LOL!! I think you'll be fine with a vaccum canister hooked in line. We've got some guys running pretty radical cams and after installing the canister brakes are as good as new again. I like my frivelous stuff as much as everybody, but also build with the KISS principle. I'm very happy with my stuff and how it performs and in 3 years of racing, I can think of very few times I did'nt walk away with money in my hand. Not making things harder than it really is, is key!

graebz28

iTrader: (5)

MCM, your car is bad a$$!! 9.56?!?!? :hail: Are you running a trans brake?

IHI, thank you so much for the detailed lesson in valve lashing. That is very helpful and appreciated!!

Looks like the lifters are solid. The rockers are steel crowers and are backed by triple springs. I plan on getting the moroso tool that measures the spring pressure while on the heads (w/in 3% accuracy). The motor was completely assebled, but since I knew that it would not be running for a while (a bit longer than I ever expected), I removed the rockers to save the springs. My friends told me that if the motor sat long with some springs compressed and others not that problems would arise. It also has hardend push rods.

What water pump are you running?

Are you running a MSD box, or reccomend one for my application?

I'm really closer to running than I thought. I can pull the brakes off my 90, get a converter, fuel pump and distributor and I'm ready to go .... aside a few other less significant parts.

I think I need to put retainers around all the spherical ends. I already have d/s loops, but still need a shaft.

So you did not put in racing clutches or anything to the trans other than the brake and RM-VB?

Do you need tall valve covers for the stud girdle? Do you need longer studs. I do have the larger diameter rocker studs.

Thanks again!!!

Mike

IHI

iTrader: (1)

You did the right thing taking the rockers off, having some springs compressed and others not over a period of time will take a toll on pressure after awhile, basically it weakens the springs that are forced in a half opened valve position. I'll be replacing my springs before season opener since I street drive the pizz out of it, but I still want to measure the pressure so I know how well they held up. On the truck I drive we always back them off after racing is done with, actually running Jessel's shaft rockers so we just pull the whole assembly off.

Your gonna laugh and other will scoff at my water pump, but 4 yrs ago I wanted electric but didn’t have the coin to get a CSI...now they're CSR, or a Meizere pump, so I did what any broke person does, I bought the Proform electric pump I was nervous the first year that it wouldn’t last, now I’m at the point 4yrs later I'm standing behind the little guy egging him on to go, go, go!!! It's exceeded my expectations and others have been impressed as well, never had a cooling issue yet-actually have a "wont get warm issue" since I installed the 31x19 Howie radiator. The car sees "on average" probably 400 passes a year at least since I hit the track EVERY weekend weather it's mine or another track, plus thousands of street miles since I feel I need to drive it with all the money I have thrown into it Plus it's fun and relaxes me to get in the car and just cruise. So IMO, that cheap basterd works!!!!

I'm running the MSD Pro Billet Distributor (2nd one in 4 yrs) MSD 6AL original one I purchased 3 yrs ago, Blaster 3 coil and MSD 3 step for staging rpm and burnout rpm....just aint figured out how to get the 3rd side to work-this is 2nd 3 step I've had in 3 years since I thought the first one was faulty not working on the 3rd side, but it's obvious I'm missing something. Not real concerned about it since I just watch the tach anyways, see a peep of smoke and pull out of the box. I personally like the Blaster 3 coil since it uses the HEI type ends on them, I can actually hear the wires click when they seat and they are stuck in place alot better than the older points style IMO. We've had a few issues with buddies points style stuff working loose or not getting seated properly and arching, I've yet to get a burp out of the blaster 3 and HEI terminals.

If I could do it again (or when this 6AL peters out I will upgrade to the digital 7 box since it has alot of extra features that I could utilize in my race set up.) That's overkill big time for the average guy, but a nice addition to a bracket car that I plan to someday build a real motor for and start spraying.

Depending on your budget and what your doing, the 6AL is a time proven piece, but if you want a little more options the Digital 6 is a really nice unit too for $79 more.

Using a stud girdle you will need taller poly locks since the girdle is itself about 3/4" thick, often they offer the correct locks right next to the girdles, if you cant find them, let me us know and we can provide links to what you need. You will need taller valve covers also to fit it all underneath. I personally like the cast aluminum covers I bought for the fact they come off my motor every week for lash checks, they wont bend or distort so leaking does NOT becomes an issue, also when buying a set of valve cover gaskets opt for the rubber covered steel ones that are reusable. You should be able to reuse the existing rocker studs that are already in your head with all this stuff.

My TH400 is a fully race prepped unit I bought from one of our big time racers at our track, he had it in the trailer for a spare but never used it so I talked him out of it. Saved about $600 over having this same thing built from scratch. I'm very happy with it, and the guy that built it was surprised it held up with all the passes and street miles I logged on it this year. He anxious to freshen it up to see how it looks, but if I don’t have any troubles at our first few T&T's I'll just leave it alone and wait for it to act up before I pull it. I'm kinda lazy about pulling stuff out of the car (I really hate pulling motors/trannies) and he can turn around a tranny in a night as long as he has the parts on hand.

AlkyIROC

I agree with the Proform stuff. It is very inexpensive compared to other stuff and the products look cheap but everything I've seen from them is actually good quality. Good quality in that it doesn't wear out or break within the first year of use. I even like some of their engine tools. Their valve spring compresser looks better and stronger than the typical run of the mill spring compresser. It might even be strong enough to remove my valve springs. With about 220 pounds of seat pressure and close to 700 pounds open, not many spring compressers will work.

AlkyIROC

The stud girdle on my heads is a Reher Morrison version. They came with the heads and if they didn't I would have bought a set anyway.

I considered going with a Digital 7 ignition. If my Holley Annihilator ever dies, I'll have to go MSD since Holley doesn't build the ignitions any more. Lots of features built into it but there's actually more than I need. All I really need is a 7AL box and a 2 step but I like the digital versions because you don't need the pills to set the rpm limits. My Hollet Annihilator produces about the same spark as a 7AL box does so downgrading to a 6 box isn't an option. I just upgraded to the huge MSD HVC II coil. With 2 amps of power in the secondary windings, I'll probably be melting a few spark plugs this year

I actually went even cheaper with a water pump. I use an aluminum Weiand pump with a Moroso belt drive and overdrive pulley. Some day I'll upgrade to a CSI/CSR/Meizere style pump but right now I don't need it. By the time I need one I'll just install a pony pump I have on the frame and run some lines from the water pump ports to it instead.

Motor City Mike

Nope - foot-brakin' it. Thanx for the comp. Not too shabby for a pump gas car, huh?

graebz28

iTrader: (5)

Pump gas!! That's the way to build it!

IHI, what are you running? I'm a couple points higher in compression than you at 11.8.

I went to crowers web site and they have auto form to fill out and get a cam card.

Do you guys run cam buttons or block protectors. Do you have any issues with cam walking?

Summit carries 4 stud girdles. Cranes look pretty burly, comp cams are one piece. Probably stick w/ an all crower valvetrain components.

Just waiting for that tax refund!

IHI

iTrader: (1)

http://bteracing.com/OnlineCatalog/P...tID=1448894948
I'm running their girdle, local dealer is a freind of mine so I got a pretty good deal.

Pump gas baby!! To be real honest, when I'm racing throughout the season I fill it with 110 since it's so cheap at the local station $3.65/gallon for VP so I just do it cuz it smells cool and it's got me covered.

I've raced plenty of times when I've just driven the car straight to the track for "fun" races and it's been pump gas 92 or 93 octane depending on what station is on the way and where I'm at. I've had no detonation issues or any signs of detonation on the plugs, total timing is 36* so it's not like I'm going nuts to try and make it as fast as it could be, I actually had my best times when sorting out bugs at 38* but I kept red lighting so I dropped 2* to take some hit away from the car. I know I'm just wasting money since I did not pick up or lose any ET or mph betwen the 92 and 110, but I'll pay the $1.65 more cuz it smells good Cheaper than buying the addatives all the time for the racey smell.

My motor was built with 12:1 slugs, but since they're in the hole like a stock rebuild, my chambers are 5cc's larger than what the pistons were speced at I lose some, we figure roughly about 11.3:1 static. With aluminum heads, the right timing, jets, cam specs, and cooling you could get by on 12:1 with pump gas, but everything must be perfect in the combination.

84firebird383

I also have a set up similar to your motor IHI, but my motor has about 10.8:1 compression and a slightly smaller roller cam. I was thinking about getting an electric water pump and was wondering if any of you have picked up any ET over a belt driven pump

IHI

iTrader: (1)

We have a good thread going on another drag racing board and 1 guy put it pretty good-in a nut shell "you wont notice as much gain if you already have a stout motor as you would running a stocker or mild motor."

Back when I had my 355 I was running 13.5-13.6 with the normal belt driven stuff on the nose. That winter I removed the PS and installed a manual box, also installed an electric water pump. That next season, first pass was a 13.0? and so was the rest of the season, eventually got my best with that old package of 12.74 on a really good air day, so I saw huge gains with the swap. Probaly one of the best bang for the buck, $40 for manual steering box and $150 for electric water pump. So including all the misc. BS to get everything up and running figure $250 for to go .5 faster-consistenly, better value than NOS!!

So if you have a mild motor and take all the stuff off the motor you will notice huge gains seat of the pants as well as on the track. But I'd be really curious to see how your combination would react by losing some drag on the snout Should easily be worth .1 to .2 I would think.

Be sure to post something later if you decide to go that route as I'd like to know what you came up with just for personal reference.

graebz28

iTrader: (5)

What is the spring pressure rating you guys are running? I wanted to get a spring PSI checker that can be used with the valves seated, but it only goes up to 300. I have triple springs and looking at most catalogs lead me to believe it is more than 300 when seated.

Should I not be scared of messing anything up by removing the springs to test the PSI.? Summit has a tool that is affordable and supposed to be able to change/check springs fast between rounds. My heads are still not bolted to the studs, so I guess it would not be to hard, just never have and hate to experiment on my precious.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

The dual springs I currently run are 220lbs at 1.90 installed height and 570lbs open pressure. New triple springs I just bought are 260lbs at 1.95 installed heigth and 660lbs open pressure. Soon as I get the car back out I'm going to check current pressures to see how they are after a full season of racing and street driving, if they're still within spec I will run them longer before installing the new springs. Just hopeing the better springs I bought will give me longer service life, my cams mild enough they should.

What diameter springs are you running? That will give you a starting place to look at what pressures they have to offer in your size/application. With a soild roller you wont have too much pressure, just watch coil bind.

Not sure what tool your talking about, a 2 in one where you can check spring pressures AND remove springs too?? Wht's the part number I'm interested if it's true. Typically there are 2 different tools, 1 for valve spring changes and the other for on head pressure testing.

Or you can opt for the pressure checker that's bench mounted and as long as you dont drop a keeper into the engine you will not mess anything up by removing them to test them.

graebz28

iTrader: (5)

They are two separate tools, IHI. I was just debating if I would need to take off the springs or could get by testing on the head if they are under 300lbs at installed height.

IHI, one more ? please. How tall are your valve covers? I want to say that mine are 3-4 inches, not the super small or super tall. Are you running breathers on both covers or sealed? Do they make some type of spacer to be able to use my valve covers rather than getting new ones. I'm kinda attahced to the ones I got.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

It sounds like you already have tall covers so you "should" be fine. Be sure to get yourself some good reusable vavle cover gasket, metal impregnanted in rubber type, we've had good luck thus far with the Moroso Perm-Align gaskets, $32/set and they've held upto weekly lash settings without a leak.

When I first got the car out with the new motor and started flooging it at the track I would get oil eruptions through the dipstick tube since pressure would build up and blown the stick out.

All I had at that time were crank evac's hooked up, I run mufflers, so everybody told me to unhook the evacs since it would actually pressurize the block with the backpressure build up becasue of the mufflers restriction. When I unhooked them, I also drilled new holes in both valve covers and installed K&N breathers into each side. Next time at track I had no blow out issues, so you'll just have to experiment with that a little to see if you have to add more venting/pressure bleed off, or are okay where your at.

One other thing on the valve covers, since you have a soild roller and you will be checking lash once in awhile, when you can afford it, check into some cast aluminum covers. They will not bend/distort like the stamped ones do and will hold up/last alot longer.