ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

the nitrous finally, damn good thin because a 500 RWHP Cobra wanted some tonight, he still thought i was all motor, only a few friends know, so it will be fun unless it leaks out from here, LOL. Just a 125 shot on 750 pounds of bottle pressure, pulled 6 degrees out, a bit too much timing removed and not much bottle pressure, but i will jet it up to 150 later. That is all my little sniper kit will handle, it is enough. I didnt swap plugs, not really sure i need to, but if i fix the engine tweaking problem, i might take a trip to the track and spray in 2nd gear maybe.

Still didnt put the window switch in, but i got a couple gallons of Aviation fuel from the airport right by my house so 100 octane is spraying in from the fuel cell with the nitrous, pretty safe tune really, so i bet i was gaining maybe 75 HP.

Deimos140

well?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

just pull the extra timing and put the bottle at 900. dont want it overly rich.

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

x2, and pump fuel will be fine at that level. i've heard bad things about av fuel and nitrous

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I need to put colder plugs in, i have TR5s in right now and i thought i had TR6, which is not a nitrous plug but usually works well with small shots.



Well, he saw my tail lights, LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeTP0_0AL90

Shagwell

Definitely get the bottle pressure up to 900. Being overly rich is harder on parts than being lean.

Baseline timing I pull 3* per 100hp of spray, usually add some back after I get a decent n/f ratio.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I have a bottle heater, but it is just the orange heater, i dont know when it will shut off if it will at all, i need to find out, i need to install that and the window switch and swap to a colder plug with a non projected tip.

Shagwell

The heater itself won't shut-off. If you want it auto then you have to use a pressure transducer and/or a thermostat.

Get it right before you go spraying it much or you'll kill the pistons. Too much fuel and too little timing is more of a recipe for disaster than being lean.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

shagwell is saying exactly what I was thinking in my head about that poor top piston ring and too much fuel

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Well, the A/F ratio was fine, so that is not a issue, i should have pulled 5 deg for the 125 shot, but i put it at 6 since i knew i would throw the 150 on it soon.

92 lt1 1le

whoever said that its better to be lean than rich obviously never sent a piston through the oil pan or melted a forged trw piston and smeared it all over his brand new dart block... nevermind... i'd rather replace a top piston ring (after many miles still) than try to figure out what used to be what... that's all i'm sayin

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

there is no possible way having 750 bottle pressure makes the a/f ratio "ok" when spraying when you should be in the 950psi range for jetting. Did you pull all 8 plugs right after the pass and cut them open to see the fuel ring ? If not then you have no clue what the motor was doing.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

that would happen from too much timing, not too lean. Running it super rich is FAR worse than slightly lean.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

It was 11:1 a/f ratio, that will work "ok" in my book and I couldn't read the plugs since they are a year old, I did look in them with a light and it didn't look bad for being old.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

too rich for sure Read online a lot about this, also remember to start conservative on timing and read the plugs to bring it back in. 6 degrees may be enough, may be too much, may be too little. 95% of all kits "out of the box" are jetted too rich as well.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea, but for a initial install to whoop that cobrasass, it was fine, not i can get the tune dialed in for a money race on the 1st, gut with 2 kits on a 97 4.6 mustang wants some in the 1/8th mile, i have destroyed him on the street with him on 1 kit and he is one of the (nearly all) locals that do not know i put the nitrous on the car.

New plugs will be here tomorrow, 2 steps colder than the TR5s and non projected tips. Going to use the bottle heater and see how much pressure it will make without having to shut it down(if it goes above 1100 i am shutting it off).

Between now and then i will probably fill the second bottle so it is fresh for the day i run the mustang and use the one in the car now to dial in the tune.

Wonder how much faster than 7.1 i will go on the 150 shot, LOL. 6.9 or bust, hahahha.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

no reason to run pressure that high, stop it at 975 at the most, you'll want 950 anyways to run it.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea, for sure, i am just speaking of seeing what the bottle heater will actually do, i have no idea if it only gets so warm or what.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

no it will continue to rise until it pops the safety pressure valve.

amng04

What happened here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7L4soxBUKM

84firebird383

Don't know. I couldn't see anything.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

That is what i am going to try to see, if it will only get so hot or if it will keep going, like i said, i will shut it down myself if it gets to 1100, someone mentioned the warmer will only do so much, i want to check.


LOL, that was the secon run when the nitrous button i has in my hand slipped and i was fumbling trying to find it, they bought the story that i botched the shift, so he wants a "tie breaker", i will see if i get some money out of him

Once i found the damn button i was catching him again, so no biggie, think i will throw the super victor intake on while i am at it before the 1st when i go to run the older stang with 2 kits.

Shagwell

How many passes do you have in the 5's in the 8th and in the 7's in the 1/4?

For starters, lean never sent a piston through an oil pan. Continual use while lean will eventually melt the top, but it won't throw it out the bottom. Detonation can send it out, but that is due to being over timed for the amount of fuel.

To melt a piston in one hit with a nitrous motor it would have to be stupid lean/over-timed, especially a heavy-azz TRW. Even then I honestly doubt you'd hurt it in one hit, but if you continually over-looked the problem(s) then you would eventually torch it.

On the other hand, too rich and too little timing can easily pinch a ring land in one hit, lift the top off the ring land, and bash it around in the combustion chamber.


- So I again say, with nitrous it's better to be a bit lean than to be rich.

Shagwell

X2 to pretty much everything you've said. - and don't bring the timing back in until you clean up the fuel.

With the gas carb, my wideband is solid 12.3-12.5 afr on motor on the dyno, but shows around 13-13.5 on the track with the jug.

There are far less people who actually know how to read a plug than there are those who think they know how to read a plug. - Just for general reference, these plugs are a safe base-line, though still fairly rich for power:


Many who think they can read a plug would say it doesn't have any "color" thus it's lean. We added .004 more nitrous to the plate, didn't touch the fuel or timing, and went a tenth and 2 mph faster. - Plugs were still a little rich and we hit it harder the next pass and picked-up more, then started bringing some timing back in till there were no MPH gains.


For reference, I run 900psi bottle pressure.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep. I went with a 150 nitrous jet and a 75 hp fuel jet to get my air fuel ratios from mid 10's to 1 up to about 11.8-12.2 to 1 depending on bottle pressure/level. I didnt want to go leaner than that. car picked up 3-4 mph doing that on a mid high 10 second pass.

With boost i'm sure its a similar situation..dont go too rich and I fear i have been too rich for too long and may have hurt a ring since i had oil blowby issues under boost. Havent ran it this year yet. reading plugs is something I wish I would learn how to do, but getting at my plugs is another issue in itself! I just dont see a way you can make a WOT pass on the street or track and shut the car off and coast to a stop and yank out plugs. Idling back to the pits will ruin the reading.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

From my understanding, you dont read the tips of the plug, you read down deep where the sun doesnt shine, the tips are for idls mixture ect. This is what i was told long ago.

This is just one of my plugs and they nearly all look the same, but this is after a year of driving hard as hell, with a idle mixture of 16.5:1 to 18.0, deeper in the plug on the ceramic looks nothing likt this, has a golden brown ring.

Shagwell

I'm not finding any of my cut-open pics on PB, but they have no base ring when right.

You have to read the fuel ring at the very base of the ceramic and read the heat in the strap/face of the threads, and/or down into the threads. - Usually the strap will show you the timing heat, but not always. The threads and their face surface will show you the combustion heat.


I'll try to remember to pull out some logged plugs from our last outing on gas(methanol base fuel now) and snap some pics. - Basically looks like they just came out of the box except for the coating being burnt off the strap/threads and a little heat color on the straps.

gtpro700

Why do you need to read plugs if you have a wideband that can data log? This isnt meant to be rude just a serious question. Not sure if there is any benefit if knowign your A/F ratio that is logged.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Air fuel ratio is just that, it doesn't tell you what is going o. Besides the amount of air and fuel being let in and burnt.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

because a/f ratio won't tell you timing marks, which a/f ratio changes based on timing. Not to mention what if #8 cylinder is lean or hotter than #2, the wideband averages the entire bank of cylinders for its reading.

gtpro700

Thanks for the repsonses guys. Completely makes sense I wasnt thinking at the moment lol

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

TR5 motor plug next to the new BR7EF non projected tip for the dope:





Here are all the plugs after a 15 month azz whooping and constant abuse:

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

just run the TR6s all the time IMO you've added 100 hp more than the stock plugs were designed for and no reason to not run the safety of a slightly colder plug when you've advanced timing so much. $1.79 each locally, as well.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

The BR7s are 2.49 a piece and do better than the TR6, i am jetting to 150 and the non projected tips are allot better than the TR6, the TR6 will work find but i would rather do it right.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i'm talking about an n/a plug. I run the 8s for nitrous hits 150 or higher

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Oh ok, there are tons running the TR6 with nitrous up to 200 hits with no issues, but just because you can doesnt mean we all do, LOL.

Shagwell

^ just went through that exact train of thought on another forum last week. "Plenty of people use the TR6's w/o problems". I agree, there are plenty who do but that does not make it the right plug for nitrous.

For that little spray and if the plug you're running NA is the proper plug, I would go one heat range colder in a non-projected tip and just run it all the time.

Any performance built engine with a moderately decent compression ratio does not need a projected tip plug, even if it's NA. - Projected tips were design to create a hotter/faster "flash" top help with emissions. There are no performance gains in using them, so why lower your safety barrier for nothing?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I ran NGK BRE7's on my 150 hit 383 and I run the iridium BRE8's on my twin turbo. Both have been fine for me. Both are projected tips

AutoRoc

iTrader: (1)

TR6 and Autolite 103's have been used for 200-225hp kits all the time.

900 psi is reccomend by Steve Johnson, the nitrous guru.
Don't overfill the bottle. It's best to put 9lbs in a 10lb bottle. It results in a more stable bottle. Overfilling results in big pressure swings, ie: instability.
Nitrous boils(turns to a gas) inside the bottle if its over 1069 psi.


Video of the mustang thrashing is appreciated!

This seems like a lot of splitting hairs over a 125 shot. cutting plugs is a bit much. The oil all over the plugs is worrisome but not horrible as long as its not smoking down the track.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

The Autolite plugs are supposed to be a harder material and less forgiving if the strap was to burn/break off, dont know how true it is.

Going to pill it to 150 today if i can, had to reset the throttle cable mounting location, i had it set for when the 2 inch spacer was on so the pedal was sunk to the floor a bit. I have a Super victor intake that will probably go on Friday and then i still need to throw the bottle heater on, think i will run 3500-7000 on the MSD window switch, should be about right.

As for the oil on the plug threads, i have never had a engine i beat the **** out of not do that. Weird, never fowled a plug from oil but always had oil on the threads.

As for running a projected tip and getting away with it, you can, but i prefer the safer route.

Shagwell

^ that's all I was saying about the projected tips.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You plan on racing anytime soon? I'll be up HMP to tune Gustavo's irocz and maybe get a pass or two in with the 99.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

we need a link: "racing spark plug tuning 101: selection and reading" if anyone has one

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

done

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticle...ark-plugs.html

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7822

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i have some really good ones but the level of discussion on them is over most peoples heads compared to the basic 150 shot types that bolt it on and go. I wouldn't dare flood that thread with some of the dumb questions that would be sure to pop up.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Alright, got bottle pressure to 900 pounds, ran allot better but the A/F was retarded rich, 9:1, so, i think i will install the 150 shot nitrous jet and leave the fuel alone to see where it is like that. Couldnt believe it was that fat hitting the button.


But it hit way better than with 750 for sure, duh, LOL.

Might have to go as low as the 100 shot fuel pill maybe.


The 1st i will be out there running the mustang on 2 kits.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

so obviously it was even richer when you hit it with the 750 pressure....poor poor piston rings LOL

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Cool, we are going out tomorrow night.

On my kit i had to use 150 nitrous and 75 fuel jets to get it to an acceptable air fuel. Keep trying different jets til it comes around.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Well, I will end up using the smallest nitrous jetting if I have to go that low, lol. Thank you wide band!


Yea, I thought It read 11 but evidently the passenger was looking at it on motor? But it runs 12.5 NA, so guess he was not paying attention, sure the rings are fine since it is just being tested in hits and. It passes, good thing for me since it is on a 125 and that fat, this thing has a ton of power left on the table going to a 150 and dialing in the tune.

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

if its the old NOS jetting charts, most flip the jets around