Thinking about taking my bone stock '85 IROC-Z to Gingerman with friends, at some future date.

Any chance my Delco Morraine front discs and rear aluminum drum brakes will last more than a couple of laps there?

Thoughts?

 

I bet they boil fluid and fade pretty quickly.

 

Sort of my concern. I'd hate to commit to a weekend track event, take off from work, and realize I can't have a good time due to no brakes.

I do have a friend with a 2nd gen Bill Mitchell Camaro with disc/drums who has no problems running over there. I do realize, that 2nd gen brakes are larger, however.


Anyone here ever track a disc/drum combo? I'd certainly bleed the brakes before hand, maybe even upgrade the front pads.

 

I predict 2-3 laps before they give up the ghost. PM Nape and see what he has to say. I'm pretty sure he's run a stock thirdgen at Gingerman before. He can probably tell you what you'd need and tell you where to find it locally too.

Your fluid will give up much more quickly though. Buy some good fluid with a high boiling point and completely flush the system. The brakes will still fade, but the pedal will remain firm.

If you are truly serious about putting in some hot laps get good new blank rotors, a set of street/track pads (Hawks makes a set, I think I have the PN# around somewhere) and completely flush the brake fluid with good fluid.

Alot of guys who show up at Road America have used ATE SuperBlue.

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/brake...cat=BrakeFluid.

Not the best, but it seems to last a while in a street car and less prone to absorbing moisture which makes it better for a street car that only see's a track rarely.

The rear's really dont' do all that much braking and so won't see anywhere near the abuse the front brakes will.

 

Thanks Bill, for the tip on the Super Blue. I'll look into that. Anyone still using Castrol LMA? Maybe I'm dating myself, but that was considered good stuff in the '90's.

 

Honestly, if you were the buying type, i would love to try different drilled and slotted rotors, just to see which hold up and show the most promise. I know i will do great with our stock systems on the autocross, just dont go fast enough or stay on the course for them to start taking a dump on you.

 

Drilled and slotted rotors are a mistake. The road course guys corrected me on that as soon as I mentioned them. Never drill a blank rotor. If the rotor isn't cast with the slots and holes then adding them later weakens the rotor causing premature failure. In fact the reason
Drilled and slotted rotors exist is because the old school organic pads needed some way to get rid of The out gassing that organic pads have. Modern pads don't out gas like that and drilling a blank rotor only deminishes it's performance.

A rotor is at its heart a heatsink.

 

That is what I mean, if it is cast with them, they would still be considered "drilled" by the average joe. I think the ones I have noticed to be considered "good" were slotted and had small diamon shapes cut into them, but I am not sure, braking has always not been important to me, I usually went in just a straight line before. When I used to be a dummy and freeway bomb against other cars, I was impressed how hard my car would shut down, but it would get soft and fade if I shut down hard enough.

 

A good quality blank rotor is better than any drilled/slotted system. Most of the other upper end brands are drilled and slotted from blank rotors rather than cast that way.

Drilled/slotted is not worth it. A good blank with the right pad and fluid is worth more.

 

Not necessarily, because even with modern racing pad formulas there is a need to vent gases with some sort of slotting in the rotor under race conditions. Drilling may hurt the strength but a properly slotted rotor will hold up fine, the current c6r as well as stock cars so they cant be that bad for durability.

 

I have a Disc/Drum combo on my 1991 firebird, i replaced the stock rotors with brembo blanks, and performance brake pads. I swapped the drums for new ones, and rebuilt and adjusted the drum brake assembly.i used performance brake fluid. I ran the car at Seattle International Raceway with a freind who co drove my car for a drivers school. the brakes held up to 4 hours between the two of us, in 1/2 hr sessions out on track.

 

That sir is good to hear.

 

I forgot to mention, my car is pretty much stock,LO3 T5 with an open element, and cat delete. Its run a 15.5 in the 1/4 mile. I was also running Kumho ASX tires 225 60r 15. With my low power level and thin all-season tires my car's rebuilt stock brakes/performance pads and fluids did fine, the tires would give in before the brakes would. If you have a Faster car and better/wider Tires the stock brakes might not hold up. I am now running Hankook RS2 summer tires 245 45 16, I plan on running a track day this weekend at Oregon Raceway Park, It is a much more technical course, I'll let you know how the ol Disc/Drum brakes hold up to the wider stickier tires on the car on this course.

 

Which pads and fluid did you use?

 

Well Charlie I've been to Gingerman multiple times. BIGMODS and I are going on the 18th of this month if you care to join or come watch and ride along.

It's hard to predict how long the brakes will last because I have no idea how hard you're planning to drive the car. If you're easy on the car they might be OK for a few laps. If you drive it hard I'd say you'll boil the fluid somewhere in the middle of the 2nd lap, probably going into turn 1 on lap 2. If not by then I'm sure it will be wasted at the end of the 2nd lap on turn 10.

On the 3rd lap you'll boil the ATF in the trans(Don't believe me ask BIG MODS) so u get to pic which low hanging fruit limits your exuberance. Also, plan on destroying a set of street tires if you run hard for one or more sessions.

A T5 and brake upgrade transforms a thirdgen into a pretty competent car on track.

I promise you will be addicted once you track one of your cars, but I'd recommend a few upgrades to avoid mechanical problems. If you don't bring a car, you should at least come out and ride along with Austin and I. For lap times I run in the high 1:40s, Looking to go mid 1:40s this tme out. Austin runs in the mid 1:40s, might get low 1:40s next time out. We're as fast as other guys like ourselves in later model vettes and Porsches with slicks.

 

Welp, I guess I better get cracking on that T5 swap on the '83.

 

T56 and don look back

Worth every penny.

 

Well that's your call but I'd fully support that. I didnt want to sound negative there, but to be completely honest, an automatic equipped thirdgen with stock brakes is woefully inadequate for a larger high speed open track like Gingerman. If you were at Waterford Hills or possibly Grattan you'd be in better shape.(well the brakes would be the trans not so much) There are several high speed areas at Gingerman where you need your brakes to make the next turn, I just don't think a thirdgen in stock form is really the car to have out there unless you're really going to go easy and just have fun, and thats perfectly OK.

To give you an idea, the track is 2.14 miles around, and lets say I run a 1:48. Thats an average speed of 71.3mph, so you can imagine there are many times I'm going a LOT faster than that and using the brakes to get slowed down. Stop your car hard from 70mph on a public street 4 times in a row and tell me how they are doing. I used to cook my stock brakes stopping once from 100mph at the drag strip...

I'm saying all this assuming you've never been to Gingerman and don't know the course layout, so if I'm low balling your experience level in my response let me know.

 

I've never been to Gingerman. The only tracks I've been on are Blackhawk Farms and the Autobahn in Joliet. And a whole bunch of parking lot autocrosses, which in some ways, I find more intense than track duty.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...ossfire-4.html

 

I run Centric Performance Fleet Pads/Brembo rotors. and their performance fleet drums.

ATE 200 brake fluid.

I ran my car all day at oregon raceway park (4 1/2hr sessions) No real fade issues. i bleed the brakes between track day's. Car ran all day like a Champ!

 

A stock LB9 car isn't going to hit the high speeds necessary to completely kill the brakes. New rotors and Hawks or EBC pads along w/ Dot 4 or 5 rated fluid will go a long way in helping the stock system out. If you heel / toe down shift properly you'll save on a lot of unecessary braking heading into turns. Change the fluid, get some good pads on there and go have some fun. You will be surprised what the car will and will not handle. The key to roadcourse racing is being smooth, not jerky, so start slow, learn the track and build your speed/ laptimes up slowly. If you go out there and try and kill it that is exactly what you will do. And most of all, have some fun and be safe....

 

I couldn't disagree with that more. What is under the hood does not automatically dictate killing brakes, sometimes it's how late you brake going into a turn. At Gingerman I'm going nearly 130mp down the back stretch and I hit the brakes at the first brake marker. If I was in a stock LB9 car with good brakes, maybe I'd only be going 110mph at the same point, then I'd just hit the brakes well after the first marker, or maybe even at the second one. On the rest of the course the speed wouldn't be very much different, its all about taking the right line and how much lateral grip you have.

My point is, the engine really doesn't have that much to do with the brakes. It does some, but not as much as many people think. Tire selection and vehicle weight and vehicle speed as it relates to larger tracks vs smaller tracks usually dictates how much brake you need.

 

If you bothered to read the rest of my post in stead of ripping apart one line, you would know that I brought up driving methods and getting a feel for the car and track by taking it easy first and building up smoothly, you guys on here make me laugh, like you are the only one w/tracktime on here. An LB9 would be lucky to consistently hit 110 on that straight, I agree it's all how you drive, which if you would of read furthur and comprehended, you wouldn't have go and disagree so quickly....

 

I read your whole post thoroughly. You made an incorrect statment then talked about driving smoothly which is a good recommendation, but will not save your brakes if they are woefully inadequate.

In many cases I am one of a very few that have track time. Charlie is talking about my "home" track. When were you there last? What did you drive? What were your lap times? Have you been there since they lengthened the back stretch?

 

I was @ Gingerman last year for 24 hrs of Lemons, and the year before. As far as my statement I stand by it. And to your surprise many of us have track time and lots of it in some cases. As far as woefully inadequate brakes I recomended some simple affordable upgrades, again try comprehending what you read. As far as what i drove, was an 85 Monza Lemons car w/ a built 4.3 V6, modded suspension, brakes, etc. As far vas lap times we ran between 1:45 and 1:50, basically depending on traffic. This ain't my first Rodeo. I have run my Z28 numerous times at Mid-Ohio and Nelsons Ledges here in Ohio. I answered a pretty general question w/ a general answer. Sorry if it doesn't meet your standards, which don't mean much to me anyways, have a good day....