I was looking at how my blower is going to inhale air directly above my drivers side exhaust header. I'm going to take a stab and say probably around 140 deg's on a summer day. WHY!. Has anyone thought of doing a cold air intake with an ATI unit? I dont' have any room to go down into the fenders because of the intercooler routing but what about coming towards the plenum then straight towards where the air box used to be then down in from of the radiator? Is that fesible?

 

take a look at Willie's setup. Cowl induction type idea.

 

this is what I've found but I don't want to have to use a cowl hood.

I've been trying to think of something for a while so good luck.

If you find anything please post it.

 

Yep, that's a pic of my setup. Some minor things have changed since, but it's still the same idea.

The reason why ATI places the cone filter above the exhaust is because there is practically no other place to put it. I suppose the inlet could be re-routed back towards the front and through the stock "Y", but there's one problem with this. Even the replacement square K&N filters only flow 263 cfm's each. The supplied K&N cone flows 763 cfm's. I would think you want to run a filter with at least as much capacity's as the cone. My rectangular K&N flows 768 cfm's.

Willie

 

That upper radiator hose doesnt look happy willie. Is it touching the blower pulley? It looks pretty kinked up to.

 

That's an old pic, over one year old. Here's what it looks like today -- same hose! Notice no more 12-rib? Now, it's a cog setup!!

Willie

 

Is that a D1?

what are you using for a bypass?

how much boost do you run?

I like it a lot but I always heard that cogs are hard on a street car.

I always thought if you had a big *** bypass valve you could get away with it but I don't know anyone who ever tried.



sorry about all the question.

 

Is that a D1?

It's a D1SC.


what are you using for a bypass?

ATI supplies one "Pro-Flow" bypass valve (otherwise known as a surge valve). Their instructions have it plumbed off the 3-inch line between the blower and intercooler and back to the blower inlet. This is similar to a self-perpetuating machine -- the air that's routed back is hot pre-intercooled blower air. In my opinion, this is not a good design at all. The hot air is combined with filtered inlet air is used by the blower, which increases it's temperature dramatically, especially if the air filter is located where ATI places it -- right on top of the exhaust manifold!!!

I've altered ATI's design in a number of ways. First, I decided to go with a fresh air intake system to aid in cooling the blower intake air temperature.

Also, I plumbed the surge valve AFTER one of my intercoolers (twin system) to the blower inlet. The temperature of this air is much cooler than "pre-intercooled" air. This combined with a fresh air intake allows the blower to run significantly cooler than ATI's design.

I use a second bypass valve too. It is plumbed on the remaining intercooler line, but before the intercooler. This one vents to atmosphere and is controlled by a solenoid which is opened and closed via toggle switch. If the switch is OFF, the bypass valve stays closed, allowing only the first surge valve to function. If the switch is ON, the valve is vents hot pre-intercooled air to atmosphere. When it is venting to atmosphere, the system runs as cool as possible. This valve also closes automatically when in boost.

These two valves result in the coolest running supercharger possible and allows me to run my blower as fast as possible, producing the most boost possible.


how much boost do you run?

Before I switched to cogs, I was producing 14-psig (55,350 impeller rpm) at 6,000 engine rpm. I was seeing belt dust, so I know the belt was slipping somewhat. With the cogs, the impeller is spinning 62,269 rpms at 6,000 engine rpms. I do not know how much more boost this will make as I haven't taken it that high to date -- still working on EPROM and Superfueler calibrations. I'm estimating up to 20-psig.

Also, my blower bracket has been braced in two additional spots to insure no bracket flex under high boost.


I like it a lot but I always heard that cogs are hard on a street car.

Can't imagine why. Hypothetically speaking, what is the difference between a non-slipping rib system and a cog system? With cogs, no belt slippage is guaranteed AND it has a cool sounding whine all its own (in addition to the blower). There's definitely no "stealth mode" with my car!


I always thought if you had a big *** bypass valve you could get away with it but I don't know anyone who ever tried.

I suppose a pair of "smaller" bypass valves equates. And now you know someone who has tried and has been successful.

Willie

 

sweet!

I thought the same thing about the hot air so mine is vented to outside air but I like the after the IC idea. I may try it

Mine also came with one bypass valve and I can here some compressor surge on desell(off the gas) the 12 rib lets it slip ( I also have belt dust) but thats why I was told it not to use a cog. You get none at all, hard on the blower and throttle blades. I was thinking a good bypass would help that. or maybe two

They do sound bad ***! and 20# should fly

Are you thinking of using the first bypass to blead off boost in 1st gear. thats a hell of an idea.

I had the hose come off the blower and push up to the hood and the thing still made 5# of boost

Ok, last thing are the additional brackets from procharger or did you make them.

Thanks my car is down and apart for a while so I'm trying to get some ideas for the next motor i build

 

I thought the same thing about the hot air so mine is vented to outside air but I like the after the IC idea. I may try it.

Venting to atmosphere is the best idea, IF you can stand the noise. That's why my second valve is switched, so if I get tired of that "whooshing", I close it.


Mine also came with one bypass valve and I can here some compressor surge on desell(off the gas) the 12 rib lets it slip ( I also have belt dust) but thats why I was told it not to use a cog. You get none at all, hard on the blower and throttle blades. I was thinking a good bypass would help that. or maybe two

As you and I have both experienced, compressor surge occurs even with a slipping belt. I can state as fact that mine does the same, regardless of ribbed or cogged. This brings me to my point: The surge valve unfortunately has delayed action -- it does not open at the instant the throttle is released -- the result is compressor surge. I am seriously thinking of installing a blowoff valve to prevent this from happening. ATI does not make a blowoff valve, but I've heard Vortech has one called a "Mondo"?? Have to check into this....


They do sound bad ***! and 20# should fly

Yeah... 11's for sure. Can't wait but as we both know, careful preparation is the key to success... gotta make absolutely sure the A/F ratio is good, especially in the upper boost range... don't want to blow anything up.


Are you thinking of using the first bypass to blead off boost in 1st gear. thats a hell of an idea.

Certainly possible. I've also thought of opening one of the bypass valves BEFORE letting off the throttle, but there's one problem with this. Chances are, I won't always remember to do this so I've kind of blown away this idea. All it takes is one time.... kaboom!!


I had the hose come off the blower and push up to the hood and the thing still made 5# of boost

Which head unit do you have? I know my D1SC pushes a ton of air! Also, depending on your boost levels, consider using t-bolt or turbo clamps. They're not cheap, but they will never loosen.


Ok, last thing are the additional brackets from procharger or did you make them.

Larry at ASSC Racing fabricated the additional support braces. One bolts to a driver's side header bolt (third bolt from the front), runs under the blower, onto a triangle shaped part that bolts to the blower bracket just below the blower. Pic upon request. The second brace uses the same hole the prior 12-rib idler (closest to the crank pulley) and an existing bolt on the driver's side serpentine accessory bracket (pic attached). The cog setup uses only two idlers, not three like the 8 or 12-rib system.

BTW, this car is my daily driver.

Willie

 

Hey willie I have a few questions of my own...

that D1-SC is self contained right? how often do you change the oil?

IS your engine O-ringed? is that even necessary for 20# as long as detonation is kept at bay? I have blown headgaskets running 6 PSI from detonation, and have a 383 pushing 12 PSI of roots-non intercooled boost with no problems because of a timing retard and a bit of water injection... Whats the story with centrifugals and PSI and detonation and all that jazz from your experience?

I am considering the D1-SC on my Stealth Rammed 355, Buts its SOO Much money and even after all that I will definetelly want to make some of the mods you have, especially the COG type deal.

I have afriend running a D1 non-intercooled with stock TPI, his only real mod to it was the addition of a blow-off valve like for a turbo... he had some problems with it because of vacuum on one side not being enough to open it, then it was leaking air or somthing... it was such a pain he mentioned but it sounds VERY different from one on a turbo car. it sounds more like a wastegate than a turbo, even whistles. he used one called the "godzilla" i think it was, have to ask. its big.

i am mainly curious about the safest max boost you can force into a non o-ringed motor, I;ve never had a centrifugal charger but the way I see it since the boost builds with RPM the "bmep" shouldnt ever really reach head-gasket blowing PSI #'s, since by the time your at your max boost your motor doesnt have that crazy low end cylinder pressure killing it. THis is all just idle speculation, of course, and i really want to know how it all pans out on your end. How much boost builds, how quickly, and with your intercooling, how much can you safelly run, technically without an O ring, IF yours Isnt, that is.

I ramble... sorry... long day...

 

Wow that looks sexy Willie!

Good job!

 

First off, I must reiterate that to date, I've run 14-psig boost max. I know I'll be running more with my current setup, but really don't know how much more. I'm guestimating 20-psig.


that D1-SC is self contained right? how often do you change the oil?

Right. ATI's recommended fluid change interval is every 6,000 miles.


IS your engine O-ringed? is that even necessary for 20# as long as detonation is kept at bay?

It is not O-ringed. I believe you are correct; that it's not necessary as long as detonation is carefully monitored.


I have blown headgaskets running 6 PSI from detonation, and have a 383 pushing 12 PSI of roots-non intercooled boost with no problems because of a timing retard and a bit of water injection...

I've never experienced detonation, probably due to intercooling and water/alky injection. I've never had to retard timing, but I can if necessary at high boost levels (over 15-psig or so) through my programmable MSD box.


Whats the story with centrifugals and PSI and detonation and all that jazz from your experience?

Just do as I have, i.e. intercooling & water and you shouldn't have any problems whatsoever. BTW, my compression is 9.2 to 1.


I am considering the D1-SC on my Stealth Rammed 355, Buts its SOO Much money and even after all that I will definetelly want to make some of the mods you have, especially the COG type deal.

Sounds like a killer combo.


....he used one called the "godzilla" i think it was, have to ask. its big.

Who makes it? I'd like to research blowoff valves more in depth.


i am mainly curious about the safest max boost you can force into a non o-ringed motor,

You want to talk to someone who's actually done it. Larry at ASSC Racing runs a '92 355 Formula with an F1. He's making an incredible 26-psig boost with 9 to 1 compression. When he had a D1 on his Formula making 20-psig boost, his best E/T was a 10.18 @ 132 mph. Yep, his daily-driver. He has not yet run his current setup.


I;ve never had a centrifugal charger but the way I see it since the boost builds with RPM the "bmep" shouldnt ever really reach head-gasket blowing PSI #'s, since by the time your at your max boost your motor doesnt have that crazy low end cylinder pressure killing it.

Agreed. In my car, I have a 4,000 rpm stall Vigilante. With such a high stall, my engine never experiences cylinder pressures at the low end. This is evidenced by lack of knock retard from a standing start and immediately after shifts.


This is all just idle speculation, of course, and i really want to know how it all pans out on your end. How much boost builds, how quickly, and with your intercooling, how much can you safelly run, technically without an O ring, IF yours Isnt, that is.

With my pulley ratio being as high as possible to prevent redlining the blower below my engine redline, this blower builds boost FAST!! And with a high stall converter, it's even faster because my engine runs almost instantaneously into the 4,000 rpm range from a standing start.

You can also be assured that when I start making over 14-psig boost, I will have my water/alky on!

Willie

 

I just did a search for "godzilla" and found a post where Guido posted this:

"...Vortech makes a nice one. the Mondo blowoff valve.

<b>Turbonetics also makes a really nice one called the godzilla </b>blowoff. Obviously, you'll spend a few bucks on either one but Ive become a firm believer in you get what you pay for..."

So i guess that answers that eh?

Would it be a wise idea to purchase an ATI D1-SC without an intercooler than get a custom one from Spearco or is the intercooler ATI supplies worth the $1100 they want for it?

 

hey willie

when I said I had a hose blow off I ment that it still made boost.
so I was thinking about leaving the by pass open in 1st. To help wheel spin. I've got a t56 and nittos

I have a D1 with a 12 rib and the 3 core IC it makes 15# at 6200
the old school one with a oil line.(still want to put a fliter in line)

I understand you wanting to be carful with 20# I've broken everything from a crank to 2 burned pistons with 15#

but I've never blown a head gaskets. this time I picked up an accel DFI so I'm giving up on FMU's and MSD timing retards
just my thing I got deal on the DFI so I got it. looked easer than buring chips but I'm sure you can make it work.

On the brace, It lookes good if I go to a cog I'll make one
the other one sounds like what I need. I think I know what you are talking about. but a pic would be nice if you have one if not no hurry I won't have my car togeter for a few months.

 

Willie, do you have any pictures of your modified surge valve, the one after the intercoolers?

I like your idea of dual surge valves. If I were starting from scratch and followed your idea of placing the included surge valve after the intercoolers and then added a blow off valve also, would there be any reason for me to use the second surge valve?

Thanks.

 

Willie,

I know you were working on a A/F ratio gauge a few months ago. Not sure if you finished up that project. But FYI I got a great gauge for little $$$ from this vendor:

http://www.alamomotorsports.com/fjo_wideband.html

Really nice product and all plug and play!!!

Don't want to see any posts on your blown up 305.

Also, sweet set up.

I would also be playing too, but I have been told by many that the stock pistons can't take more than the 343 RWHP that I am currently making!!!!

Bet you will be at 500 RWHP soon!!!

 

j91z28d1,

Was that the stock crank and pistons????

I have been advised to keep at 10# boost w/ my stock 305!

 

not stock at all

its a 350 with dished forged pistons, ok rods and just a stock crank.

but I had an hard time getting the HB off the front of the crank the rebuild before. the mechanist shop had to get it off so I may have had a weak nose and that's what broke off and took out all the valves

It was running good too damn it

 

I am looking to build my motor up soon for boost, I plan on getting the D1SC procharger for my vette. But what is COG's and surge valves? Sorry, I don't have that much knowledge about superchargers, I was planning a TT set-up, but soon changed to a procharger. I was planning on doing a blow off valveas well for safety issues, why couldn't you use one thats designed for a turbo car? Some turbo cars put out a lot of boost, and most run of vacuum right? I don't see why you couldn't use one like that? Also the vette's system also has the filter above the exhaust manifold, I've got a few ideas for that but the vettes engine bay is much different then F-body's. I wonder if you could just place a heat shield between the manifold and filter like a cold air induction from the wheel well? Just a thought. Thanks for any help and advice.

 

Willie did the cog setup come from ASSC as well?

 

cog's: if you look at the pic above thats a cog setup. it has ribs that runs across the pully and belt so it can't slip. the one it will come with looks like the setup on you car now but has a few more Vs. like mine has a 12 rib v belt some have less. the cog is the best

surge valves: are for the same thing as blow offs on a turbo.

but where a turbo spins down as soon as you lift off the gass. superchargers spin with RPM so if you get off the gass in a gear there is alot more air to let out for a longer time. If you have a a big enough blow off valve it could work but I don't know.

I was planning on doing a blow off valveas well for safety issues,
There not for safety issues, grand nationals never had them. Its just easer on the turbo ot let the pressure out

good luck on the air intake I haven't seen a way to do it on a F-body without a cowl hood. hope its easer on a vette