I bought a 91 Camaro RS a few months ago and was very dissapointed with its performance. It does one hell of a burnout and sounds great but that is about it. I am starting this thread as a log for the twin turbo upgrade I am planning and also for ANY feedback and advice. My goals at the moment is to install a working twin turbo setup on the 305. I know the 350 is the way to go but that is not cost effective for me and also it is not the size of the engine but how much air and fuel you can get into it. Power gains are secondary to me right now, I will worry about that when the system is installed properly and ready for tuning.

Since I last took the car to the drag strip (ran a dissapointing 11.38 in the 1/8th mile, posted videos of it on MySpace - www.myspace.com/107502148) I have removed the A/C completely, removed AIR completely, stripped interior except for front seats, front carpet, middle console, and dash panel, removed weatherstrip and insulation from hood (allows hot air to exit at cowl area), installed new pads, rotors, tie rods, spark plugs, MSD ignition module, and starter, rewired interior (just to fix a LOT of problems the previous owner caused by installing electronics improperly), disabled SRS and installed a lighter steering wheel, and numerous other odds and ends. When I bought the car it already had headers, cat-back exaust, a wanna-be cold air intake (first thing I trashed), and a custom PROM installed. Other than these minor alterations the car has basically a stock TBI 305 with T5 trans.

I have 2 Mitsubishi TE04H (TD04) turbos I pulled from some LeBarons at a junkyard. One is in need of a rebuild and the other just needs a good cleaning. I have found a rebuild kit for about $70 + S/H on ebay. If anyone knows where I can get it cheaper please contact me. I will post pics of the compressor map for these turbos when I post pics of the car and engine later today.

Before I begin buying parts for and installing the turbo set up I want to get the engine is good working order. I have a list of known problems that I will also post later. Once this is done I will want to:

1. Upgrade cooling ststem - upgraded oil delivery, electric water pump, more efficient radiator, 4 cooling fans (2 on each side), fabrication to help route more cold air in and more hot air out, insulating fuel lines, exaust pipes, brake lines, etc...
2. Upgrade ignition system
3. Upgrade fuel delivery - still need to calculate an estimate on fuel needs
4. Install turbo headers and turbos - need to be able to isolate them from engine and route generated heat away, need to "turboproof" engine (stronger gaskets and seals, need to find out rotating assembly limitations, etc...)
5. TUNING - this should be fun

I guess this should be a good enough introduction to this new project. Later today I will post pics and numbers and better detail my plans. Every post after that should be and update on progress. Any and all comments, suggestions, advice, and questions are more than appreciated.

 

Does anyone know what the air flow units are in cfm's?

 

Found it:

CFM x 0.000472 = m3/sec CFM x 1.7 = m3/hr

m3/sec x 2119 = CFM m3/hr x 0.588 = CFM

I used the turbo calculator at http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/index.php and played around to get a rough estimate of where the 305 falls on this compressor map. I left intake temps and volumetric efficiencies at their default values until I get some good reliable estimates. I played with the numbers until I got around 8 psi boost since this is the default setting for these turbos. I need to get some flow numbers for the engine also to get a more accurate graph. This is what I got with I put in.

Numbers


Graph


Dont look good at all... Hope it improves when I get flow numbers otherwise I might need different turbos.

 

i went with a big single, but i have one suggestion, your head gaskets should be cheapos, you want them to be your fuse in the motor to help keep from melting the heads or pistons.

i dont think that you need 4 fans either, thats a LOT of draw, espically with an electric pump.

i would go with i fan, with no theromstat, that should be plenty of cooling. my car with no therm. and a belt fan ( no turbo) ran at about 150-160 degrees on an 85 degree night. no ther. really helps out your cooling

 

alexisgreene, there is a board member here in CT that has done a TT 305. Look for Andris Skulte or goto www.skulte.com to touch base with him. Good luck in your build.

 

I agree, 4 fans is just not needed. Once one fan pulls the air though, haveing another one push it won't do anything. The more powerfull fan will control how much air you are moving. Also another reason why you don't want to push or pull too much air is that if it just zooms by it donesn't have enough time to pick up heat from the rad fins. Leave the cooling for the end. Run stock TPI dual fans and a stock rad. When the whole setup is done, see how hot it gets and then upgrade the rad only if you need to. The stock TPI dual fans move as much as most aftermarket setup do. If you are still hot, then upgrade them. This is all assuming you are in tune and not too hot from some other reason.

Hope it works out.

 

i wouldnt run it without a thermostat at all... instead take an old thermostat and knock out the center of it so it becomes a restrictor. it will cool better that way. the coolant will have a chance to pull the heat off the engine and also have a chance to get rid of the heat in the rad. without it, youll overheat. the coolant has no chance to do anything. seen it before..

 

I agree and dis. agree.I wouldn't knock the center out. Just drill a few 1/8th holes in it like this. Been doing it for over 10years like this now. Works great.

 

I appreciate the tips. I would have never thought about using the head gasket as a fuse for the motor, that's a damn good idea. I really appreciate the link! I hope that I can get in contact with Andris Skulte. I am sure he can give me alot of the information I am trying to get my hands on right now.

Been busy at work but should have a few days off this week. I am hoping that the parts I ordered come in the mail by then. I ordered a new throttle body and am looking for a new intake manifold also. I will be saving up for a new pair of heads next. I will post specs on the throttle body and intake soon. I am also trying to figure out flow numbers for the engine so that I can get an idea of how fast the turbos will be spinning at any given rpm. This should give me a better idea of where the 305 falls on the compressor map. I also need to upgrade the entire oil system (cooler, pan, filter, etc...) and install a new distributor so I have time to think things over before I start any serious modifications. I really want to take it to the track and get a baseline once I finish getting the engine tuned up properly. My next post will be alot more informative. I just wanted to thank you guys for the info and let you know what my plans are at the moment... if you are interested.

 

I got in touch with Andris Skulte and read through his log for his twin turbo engine. I bought the book Maximum Boost by Corky Bell. This book is a gold mine. Anyone serious about turbocharging an engine should buy this book. It has the answers to questions I didnt even know I had yet. I will spend some time this weekend working out the numbers and researching what cars came with the appropriate sized turbo stock. I am hoping that I can find the right sized turbo in a junkyard and rebuild them. I really cant afford to buy brand new ones right now.

A friend of mine is going to help me build an air to water intercooler this weekend. Like any normal friend he has his own idea of how to do it. He told me something about using dry ice. I never heard of that before so I will be doing my research on that after I am done posting this. He and a few people from my school also think that I am wasting my time with this project. Guess that is more motivation for me to make it happen.

The throttle body I ordered still hasn't come in the mail yet. I was really hoping to get the Camaro to the track this weekend but that's not looking too good now.

 

those tdo4's are gonna be a bit small, look to a pair of chrysler t3's off a turbo newyorker,shadow,sundance or turbo omni

u should have no trouble finding those in a junkyard

i know ill get flamed for this one
but a pair of the ebay t3/t4 hybrids would work great and there about 150$'s each shipped new.
i have over 100k miles on mine without issues
this is the exact turbo i ran for over 3 years and have sinc eut back on my car due to trashing my t74
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T4...QQcmdZViewItem

 

I work full time and am a full time automotive tech student. Ebay is my best friend! If it only works for one day then my goal is accomplished. Whenever I have alot of money, then I can think about getting the better quality stuff. Thanks for the link, I will order them next weekend if the compressor map looks good enough.

 

they will be perfect for a 305

they are alil off sized

bigger then a 46 trim t4
and smaller then a 50 trim t4
they actually measure 48 trim

they are also identical in size to a te-44 which u can also look up

u should have no problems with 2 of those im making over 300rwhp out of a v6 with one at 7psi and the t3 .63 hotsides will spool up great

i bellive ttype camaro and junkcltr on the boards both have tt setups using t3 .63 hotsides

 

I was crunching some numbers and decided to post them here as a record and if it will help any of you.

A/R #'s for this turbo are .60/.48 (found on internet but not verified)

Air flow rate of 305 at 5500 rpm and 90% VE = (305 * 5500 * 0.5 * 0.9) / 1728 = 436.84895833333333333333333333333 or 436.849 cfm.

Add 8 psi of boost ((14.7 + 8) / 14.7 = 1.5442176870748299319727891156463 or 1.544 pressure ratio) and this becomes (1.544 * 436.849) or 674.494856 or 674.495 cfm.

So at 5500 rpm at an estimated 90% VE, my 305 should flow 436.849 cfm N/A and 674.495 cfm at pressure ratio of 1.544. Convert 674.495 cfm to m3/sec (674.495 * 0.000472) and I get 0.31836164 or 0.318 m3/sec. Now I can go to my compressor map.

Now here is where I get confused. I can not even map the 0.318 m3/sec so I believe I am either converting to the wrong unit of measurement, or converting to the right one but the wrong way. Any ideas? Or is this turbo really sized this wrong for this engine? Also I know I am taking only 1 turbo into consideration. How do I get the second turbo calculated into this?

 

the correct ar's are .50/.63 though u can get them in .48 hotsides not recomended for a small block though

u need to convert to lbs per min

 

those turbos are in between these 2



and


they will sit right around 74% eff

 

The numbers were for the TDE04H. Were you talking about the A/R #'s for that or the TE44? I converted to lbs/min by dividing 674.495 cfm by 14.27 and got 47.266643307638402242466713384723 or 47.267 lbs/min. This does not fall on the TE44 compressor map either. What am I doing wrong? Should I be using the N/A air flow rate instead of the boosted air flow rate on the compressor map?

By the way, here is the compressor map for the TE44 (T04E 60 trim) turbo with same numbers as last time:
http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/...&product_id=61

This calculator accounts for 2 turbos, when I switched it to show 1 turbo the points fell at the same points I got. How do I account for 2 turbos? Double the airflow rate?

That would be nice to know for future calculations but as for the most appropriate turbo, I think you are right project89. That map looks a lot better than the map for the TE04H.
----------
You beat me to the punch I used the 60 trim map with that link though.

Here is the 46 trim graph:
http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/...&product_id=56

Here is the 50 trim graph:
http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/...&product_id=57

 

47 lbs per min divided by 2

23.5 lbs per min per turbo @ 1.5 pr

at redline this puts u dead in the 76% eff island
lil lower eff at lower rpm

with a boost setting of 9 psi wil move u mostly into the 76% range for most of the rpm range
----------
yeah the specs i got for a te44 were not correct one of those is slightly larger then the ebay units

 

Here are the specs copied from ebay for the T04E turbo:
Inlet 3"
Outlet 2"
Bearing: Wet Floating Bearings
Oil Inlet: 1/8 NPT Oil Inlet
Flange: Standard T3/T4 Flange
Swaps: 350 WHP
Working Pressure: 5~30 PSI
Compressor: .50 A/R Compressor
Turbine: .63 A/R Turbine
Compressor Wheel: Exducer: 3" Inducer: 2"
Turbine Wheel: Exducer: 2.2" Inducer: 2.58"
Hot Side: 5 Bolt Standard Hot Side

 

yeah i have the actual compressor specs writen down somewere.ive taken mine aparts and remesured with a calliper.

2 of them are fine for u though they will sit almost as eff as they canbe at 7 psi and leave tons of room to grow

 

alexisgreene,
Project89 is right about needing to divide the CFM or lb/min by 2 for the 2 turbo setup. You found you need about 50 lb/min total so you need 25 lb/min from each turbo. That shows that you need two of the Mitsubishi TE04H (TD04) turbos and will be at less than 60% efficiency.......off the map because they are on the small side.

I have a twin setup on a 1986 bone stock TPI engine. The turbos are stock T3 50 trim compressors with .48 A/R exhaust housing. The engine spools the turbos at 1700 RPM......kind of diesel-like. It makes about 350 BHP at 9 PSI using the dragstrip as a HP calculator.

I have a twin setup using T3 60 trim compressors with .63 A/R exhaust housings on a 350ci with mild cam (216*/216* I/E duration) and LT1 intake. It is hard to tell exactly where it spools because of the stall converter. It spools below 2800 RPM.

A twin setup using Ebay hybrid T4 compressor / T3 .63 A/R should give an early spool time and flow enough for around 800 BHP.

EDIT: 89JYTurbo around here also used T3 50 trim compressor / .48 A/R turbines on his setup in a stock 350ci Camaro and went low-mid 12s with only 1.6 rockers.

 

FirstFireBird posted pics with caliper measurements in his Camaro V6 project build. They looked extremely close to the 46 trim map. I can't remember the exhaust wheel size, but I think it might have been a standard sized T3 wheel.

 

11blade stage 3 wheels
or o trim wheels i dont remeber off hand
i posted the comprressor and turbine wheel specs somewere on the boards i just dont rember in what thread

 

It would be nice to have those as a reference in this thread. Mabey I can find it somewhere. Thanks alot for the info junkcltr. I have some pics and more numbers I wanted to post but my throttle body was waiting on the door step when I got home from work. I am going to go fool around with it before the sun goes down.

 

I ran into money problems so I decided to blueprint this engine to get an idea of how much it would cost me to build properly. This spreadsheet is the result of that. Input stats on your engine and it will give you WOT results assuming spark timing and valve timing is exact. Depending on how many people request it I can add cam timing, flow numbers, and fix a few problems that I know of right now. It would be nice if someone who has dyno numbers for their engine to let me know how close these numbers are.

As for the Camaro, a few fixes and upgrades and now she chirps tires through 3rd. Nothing to brag about until I get some money to blow.