Hey guys im am starting to buy the peices to build my remote mount turbo setup. it might be a month or two maybe even more since the economy is going to crap..... but anyways. so im going to be putting my car on a lift this weekend to start the measurments for my return piping. and from there im going to relocate my battery to the other front corner since im going to bring my piping in from where the battery is now. i already have the BOV its the RFL BOV. the next few things on the list are to upgrade the injetors to 27 IB injectors and throw a 255lph fuel pump in the tank. and of course the usual steel braided lines for the oil and the wastegate and a FMU. i want to put a 6 psi spring in it for now. now here is where im kind of hitting a snag. i was reading the posts on here about the remote mount systems and the only vehicle with the setup on here is the cavvy. i also found the post from the guy with the mercury (i think that was the car) and he said to go with a smaller turbo than what you would go with with a normal turbo setup. i was going to go with the t3/t4 turbo, but my friend is pushing for me to get a gt35 turbo so i have room to play with down the road. the next one is the oil pump. i was going to go with the same one that the guy with the cavvy used, the shurflo pump 8000-643-236. here is the link to the specs http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPum...0-643-236.html. im assuming that this pump would pull enough. i have noticed that the guys on the GTO forums that have the STS systems seem to upgrade the the turbowerx scavenger pump (http://www.turbowerx.com/Scavenge_Pu...enge_Pump.html)
but the GTO's are running the twin turbo STS systems on them, would this mean that it would have too much pull on a single turbo?

thanks for taking a look at my post and thanks in advance to the replys

 

bump.....

well ive decided im going to get the gt35 turbo with the external wastegate. i guess no one knows if the scavenger pump that was used on the cavvy would work allright with mine?

 

I've thought about this myself too...but looks like you're actually doing something about it...bump for good luck..

 

I think that it's hard for people to comment on the remote turbo issues because not many here have done it........
I too have thought about putting a remote turbo on my car... (boosting it period) because the guys I run with are turbo'd imports and they throw down serious power and times.
The owner of the dyno shop that I go to "Wall's Rod and Custom" (check youtube) has a conventional twin turbo'd Big block Chevy Camaro 1400 Hp and a Custom Remote turbo'd Saturn Sky Roadster that has 809 Hp. (so it works!) and he suggests it......

But it looks like you'll be a poineer as far as third gens go...... who knows maybe I'll be second

 

me third?

 

lol i have notice that. im taking the car to the dyno next weekend and that will serve as my before the kit ratings. then when i get the kit on im going to go back and get it dynoed again and we can see what the gains look like.

 

If that's the case, keep track of the equipment and different parts that you use (part #'s and pictures) So that a record of the build can be documented. You can be the pioneer that sets the bar for the rest of us....

The owner of the dyno shop says that the remote turbo works.... (not as good as the header turbo), but it does have it's advantages. (Under hood heat, Fabricating a Header etc) & if you want to keep the engine bay look somewhat stock....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICgb2...eature=related

 

ok well the kit has been started. so its going, just a little slower than i want it to be but its going. so far ive got a t60 60 trim turbo, powerxs rfl bov, oil cooler, and wastegate. i have a buddy calling some friends about getting the piping fabbed up for me and the pump will come out of next check. so im shooting be a finished project next month.

 

What oil pump did you choose?
What do you plan on making for the turbo oil return sump? Or are you going to run the pump on a timer during shutdown?

 

im going to use the same pump that the guy on this forum used on his cavvy. its a shurflow. the pump is rated at 180 degrees so im going to run the oil cooler to keep the temp down. im most likely going to put the pump on a timer to keep it running a little after she is shut down.

 

I have a stock TPI 305ci with turbos on it. I installed an oil temp. sensor in the oil pan when I welded the oil return fittings on the pan. The oil climbs to 220 - 230 *F max. under boost on a hot day. I have the oil cooler mounted in front of the intercooler. Normally the oil runs around the same temp. as the engine coolant.

EDIT: If you build a sump, I would put an oil temp. sensor in it. I can guarantee the return oil will be higher than 180 *F when the pump sees it.

 

Why are you going with a remote system? If you are already planning to make under the hood mods then why not go for the front mount?

I have heard that the charge temps acually drop in a remote system. But front mount puts down the best numbers.

 

hmmm. well ill just have to cross that line when i get to it. what kind of setup did you put on your car? and what were the power gains?

im not planning on making under hood mods. im only upgrading the injectors. one of the reasons that im going with the remote mount is that i take my car to car shows and i want my engine to look as non cluttered as possable. and the remote mount is the best for that since there is only one intake pipe going into the engine bay. second there is more to the engine turbo setup than the remote mount setup, ex: headers, downpipe, room problems, ect, ect. this kit is more practicle for my budget than doing the whole engine mounted turbo. and im not looking for an insane amount of power. 300 to the wheels would make me happy. i have heard the same things about the whole charge temps. i encountered a guys thread post where he heatwrapped his exhaust to keep the temperature from dropping and it helped. from the research i have done the motor mounted turbo setup does give better results. but i come right back to why i want to use the kit. you also have to think that this setup differs from the motor mounted setup. i think that some people dont relize this and just throw the same size turbo that they would use in the engine bay when infact it is better to use a smaller turbo that what you would use in the engine bay because the air going to the turbo will be cooler.

 

I wonder if it's worth it to have the exhaust Jet Hot coated to keep the heat in, be nicer then header wrap.

Also think there is a way to have the turbo located where the cat's are?

 

If I were building a remote mount I would mount it in the back before the axle. I think that where the cats are would lower the ground clearance to much especially if the car is lowered or might be lowered in the future.

I've actually thought about the remote concept a little. It would remove the need for header wrap and things like that because the heat is so far away from the engine bay. The only thing is that the wrap or jet hot coating would be a good idea because it would make the exhaust velocity higher which would make for better spool time.

for what you are doing I would just pipe it plum it and run it! You are going to put an aftercooler on it right?

 

Now that's the spirit!!!!!! I love it!!!!

I'm lookin at this seriously!!!!! I think it could be really good if done right

I've been doin the math slowly..... Trim, A/R, BOV, Wastegates, Compresion Maps..... all the plumbing.
Probably cheaper than a supercharger though?

Bob8703, what kind of #'s do you wanna hit with the t60 60 trim???

 

i would love to see numbers over the 300's when im all done. but im not going to expect anything really. if im not happy with the number then ill just keep changing things around to get everything where i want it to be.

 

300 Rwhp should be easy I would think with 6+lbs of boost.

Here's a site I had found that gives you enough insight to get going....
Go to the Turbo Tech 101, 102, & 103....
The tech 103 page goes into some equations to figure what kind of turbo to use for an intended Hp goal...... of coarse you have to remember that they are talking front mounted turbos

www.turbobygarrett.com

 

thanks for the link. ill be looking back onto that from time to time. as of right now i have three shops that im going to take my car to to get a price on the plumbing for the turbo. whichever one is better is going to get my business lol. i want to do multiple pieces for the setup just in case something happens to where i need to remove the kit. im also going to install a cut off switch and a valve to cut the oil flow to rear. that way if something happens i can just shut the valve and cut the power then remove the peices and drive my car untill i can fix whatever needs to be fixed. ill just have a VERY loud car. im thinking about buying a cherry bomb or something easy to install and cheap.

 

I would not install a valve. It is another item that could fail. If you cut flow with the turbo in place then it will completely destroy it. If you are worried about a problem then I would carry a cap for the oil lines, a piece of exhaust pipe or muffler and a piece of intake pipe. Install the feed cap, return cap, and pipes if you have a failure.

 

no i was talking about was if something goes wrong id remove the whole setup that meant trubo and piping all the way up to the intake. and put my intake back on. but instead of removing the oil lines just have that valve to keep the oil from going to the back.

 

The valve is not a bad idea. The only thing is that you probably won't have any problems relating to engine or turbo failure with 300rwhp. A simple ball valve has almost no chance of failing and is cheap. I would say if you are worried about it do it!

Do you have any progression pics? I want to see what you are doing!

 

Check out Mocal pumps, I think they might be cheaper and the oil temp resistance is much higher.

Do you even need a blow off valve with 6 psi?

 

Just checking back on this post to see what has happened since November...
How's the project comin along?

I've crunched the #'s in my case and I'm starting to think that I have very lofty goals......
To acheive the Hp #'s I want would mean pushing alot of air..... (requiring a larger turbo) and I'm not sure that the RMT would recieve enough exhaust pressure/energy to spool a bigger turbo. (does that make sense???)

Anyways.... I ordered yet another book that should be here anytime now.
http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/imag...1038858&sr=8-1

I'm sure that it will just re-affirm the info that I've already found. Who knows, maybe I'm missing something.......

 

let me know how it turns out Sammy, I'm also extremely close (so close, I can taste it) to acquiring the remote mount turbo for my LB9

 

u can get some serious numbers out of a rear mount if done right.
my local track is frequented by 2 vettes with rear mount setups

one has a t88 turbo and the other a t76.
the cars run in the 8 second and 9 second ranges without using any nitrous

 

I would think that by now Murillo's car has proven that remote mounts do indeed work. I've got one in the works(already have 90% of the parts and the car), but I'm about a year out on being able to get started. - BBC with a rear mounted 96mm. Once it gets sorted out I'll likely step up to a 100+mm.

bob8703 - good luck/any updates?

 

oh yeah..... the Remote Turbo works!!! The Youtube post above from the CarCraft Nationals proves it!!!

809 RWHp with a LS2 by Brian Wall of "Walls Rod and Custom" here in Winnipeg.
I believe that he ran the return charge tubes through the hydroformed frame, but don't quote me on it.....

 

If large pipe to the remote turbo is used and very well insulated then the turbo will act like it is right at the cyl head. It isn't that remote setups don't work......they only work as well as designed. Just like front mount setups....it is all about the pipe flow and heat transfer.

I still wouldn't run a valve. Put more time into making a reliable setup and believe in it. No one runs valves on their oil coolers.......why put one on the turbo?

 

Here's a good one..... This is the math that I've done with equations from www.turbobygarrett.com (TurboTech103)
(Check out the website for the equations..........)
I hope that the math can help people checking in on this Thread

If you achieve 9.5-10.5 Hp @ the flywheel for each lb/min of airflow. Therefore a 400Hp engine needs 36-44 lb/min of airflow to reach that hp rating.
To reach 600Hp (flywheel) I would need 65lb/min of air mass.

Manifold Pres of 32.33 psia or 17.6 psig

Pressure drop of 4psi (estimated depending on intercooler, pipe size, quality and # of bends, throttle body restrictionsetc....) 32.33+4= P2c=36.33 psia

Compressor Inlet Pressure (Ambient pressure @ sea level is 14.7) 14.7-1= P1c 13.7 psia

Pressure Ratio= P2c/P1c= 36.33/13.7= Pressure Ratio= 2.651

So I'm looking for something with a Pressure Ratio of 2.6 and a AirFlow of 60-65 lb/min

Now I figured that with the dyno #'s I have right now (even with a lean tune) that I would make peak Tq around 4600 Rpm so with enough digging around I found a compressor map for a Garrett GT4088 54 Trim .072 A/R

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...R_751470_1.htm

I'm just not sure that a RMT system will turn a turbo that big....?
It is a large size frame and I'm afraid that it would too big a turbo for fun driving (not all drag) I don't want it to be too lazy but I don't want it to be undersized either.... I don't wanna go into the chokeline with a GT35

What do you guys think???

 

The 32.33 psia or 17.6 psig you mentioned has nothing to due with the 600 HP calc. you did. It is completely independent of the numbers you obtained for the lb/min. You need to calc. the psig based on the engine displacement and or N/A BHP and desired boost BHP.

If you really need 17.6 psig to get 600HP then it means you would be starting with a approx. 280 - 320 BHP without boost.

 

There is no mathmatical relation between boost psi and hp. PSI is just a measure of restriction, it has little to do with the amount of air the engine is using, other than to say it will take "x" to feed an engine, thus you will need more than "x" to make pressure.

 

I am making 330RWHp without boost (on a bad tune, very Lean)
The #'s I came up with were from the equations I found on www.turbosbygarrett.com

You'd have to go there yourself to see what I'm talking about..........

Still wanna know how things are going Bob8703......... Didn't wanna mess with your thread..... sorry

 

Not true. It takes so much air to make a HP. It takes so much more air (boost) to make more HP than NA. In other words, the HP does the volume part and the boost is the restriction part.
----------
BTDT. You don't need that much pressure for a large engine (CI) and go from that HP to 600HP. You would have an extremely non-linear engine if that were the case.

 

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech103.html

From Webpage;
2. Plotting Your Data on the Compressor Map
In this section, methods to calculate mass flow rate and boost pressure required to meet a "horsepower target" are presented. This data will then be used to choose the appropriate compressor and turbocharger. Having a horsepower target in mind is a vital part of the process. In addition to being necessary for calculating mass flow and boost pressure, a horsepower target is required for choosing the right fuel injectors, fuel pump and regulator, and other engine components.

etc, etc..... then it goes on to all the calculations...

"TURBO; Real World High Performance Turbo-charger systems" By Jay K. Miller prety much gives the same example as what's on this Garrett turbo web-page. Seems to make sense to me.....

 

something I was thinking about earlier while flipping through Summit, and I'd like everyone's opinion if its a good or bad idea; What if you have a "standalone" oil unit for the turbo? What if you acquire, make or buy a small 1 or 2 quart gas/fuel/oil cell and install it (and well insulate it) in the spare tire area along with the oil pump so it just circulates on its own? Would this work, yay or nay? That way you are not using the already hot oil from the engine...?? or if it must be from the engine, what if one were to install a sandwhich adapter on the oil filter, can this be used for the oil system???
just a few thoughts...

 

That's what I was saying. HP is relative to the volume of air. Supplying more air than the motor uses creates pressure, but the amount of pressure required to make "x" horsepower factors off an almost infinite number of variables. Yes, you can figure/ "guesstimate" it off of volume, but the actual pressure required to make "y" volume varies due to air density, cam size, intake and head flow, piping, etc, etc.
----------
IMO, there is no good stand-alone oiling system. You add extra parts to the system, you increase your chances of failure. If for any reason the turbo looses oil it can/will eat itself.

If you run the proper lines for oil feed and return, and you route them properly, there's much less chance for failure simply using the engine's oil system.

 

What about using an oil sandwhich adaptor?

 

For what?

 

oil pick up and return line

 

ok, update. I met up with bob and actually purchased the parts from him to install on my Trans Am. We talked about different possibilities and knowledge we both had. What I'm gonna do with the oil situation is use a sandwich adapter like this one and run the oil send and return lines. Another possible solution what he mentioned is using a t-splitter on stock oil pressure sending unit location and having it drain in the oil fill plug.
The main goals for this is that my Trans Am is my daily driver and I can't pull the engine and weld anything (to the oil pan). And I would like to spend a day maybe two to finish everything. The routing for the charge pipe I decide would be best if routed along or in the driver side ground effect and up the fender (behind the front wheel) since I do not like the idea of intake piping crossing under the k-member or a-arms. So I would have to take the fender off. I'm going to leave the battery alone, maybe move the horns... I'm still looking into the fuel issue. I'm going with a mechanical FMU for the time being until I get to a dyno and get some chips burned....
I'm going to exhaust wrap the hotside of the turbo from the y-pipe back...

 

as stated above i sold the kit to my buddy HCR. im getting married and i have to put off the playing for a while untill things straighten out more. so the firebird has to go and i had no use for the kit anymore it sucks having to stop the build but i know that HCR will carry the torch all the way.

 

Holy crap you've put more thought into this than I have......! & I thought that I did some research into this.......

I always knew that I didn't wanna run the charge pipe under the a-arms but you've taken it that one step further... I love it!!!!

Thinkin outta the box alittle....

I'd love to see you put the naysayers to rest.... with some reliability and great numbers....

Then I'd like to copy you!!!!!!!

By the way I'm getting officially married this summer as well, so I have time to watch this all unfold I guess.

 

any progress or pix?

 

i went ahead and took a look at the fmu, and i do think that that would be a good start. the question is what ratio would you have to go with in order to use it. have you looked into these more. im asking because i found a good deal on another turbo you might know what that means......

 

usually they are found ina 12:1 or 10:1 ratio, this means that for every psi they rise the fuel psi by the amount. i have used a 12:1 in a lt1 with 30lb. injectors, and made around 450rwhp on stock engine with m6. and 255lph walbro intank and inline
they are common for use with return fuel systems and power adders. i reccomend the BEGI unit, it allows to tailor the base pressure, onset pressure and has other features, such as abilty to replace the stock fpr, and be the fmu at the same time.
when using fmu's u must make sure that your pumps can keep up with the demand in fuel volume and psi.
walbros 255 are excellent

 

he just picked it up this last weekend. still trying to figure things out. like me this is his daily driver so it could take a while.

he has a walbro in there i think. i know its a bigger pump, the name sounds familiar. with his stock injectors would the 12:1 be too big then. i mean using that on 30lb injectors..... those i quite a bit bigger than stock, or does the size of the injectors really matter when it comes to these FMU's?

 

its really more of a safety measure. in a lt1 the pcm does to control 30lb. inj. since they are not much bigger than stock 24lb., u will see no diff. in drivabilty with 30 lb. in a stock lt1 with no tune, car will drive like normal, but with the onset, the 30 lb. will provide more fuel volume than 24lb. injector and keep the AFR richer. around 12:1 or better. with less than 10psi,
i would look into real management if planning on seeing over 10psi.
fmu is not really optimal, but it will get the job done for around a 500bhp engine. wont be the best for mpg either.

the same applies to a TPI engine, more fuel will keep the AFR in a safer range. around 11.5-12:1, this what u want, less chance of damaging anything esp. on cast or hypereutectic pistons. less than 10psi with FMU is fine for a healthy engine, along with a quality pump such as Walbro or Bosch

 

like stated above, I have a Walbro already since I've ran nitrous for the past year, I decided on turbo since I want to drive around with the sword unsheathed... That was my next task is to figure out more the FMU. I wasn't sure what ratio would work, but you state a 10:1 FMU with 30lb injectors would work with a 305? Right now I'm just gathering parts an components. Checking off things on the supply list. It probably wont be a few months before its actualy on and running (which I can't wait till then). I eventually do want to get a proper tune and fuel management system. (F.A.S.T. or Accel) but thats later on the down the road... The main components stopping me now are the lack of the oil pump and the piping. I can get the lines and fittings locally. I plan on using regular exhaust piping to run under the car (charge pipe) and would like to use as little couplers as possible. Just to keep things from blowing out. What would be a good size 2" or 2.5"?

 

a 10:1 with 30lb. would be enuff for 305 seeing less than 10psi.
however the the idle quality may suffer some with use of a larger injector in a tpi without recalibration for larger injector.
in lt1/ls1 the pcm adjusts itself even with up to 30lb. inj.

mocal makes an excellent pump, 2.5 wrapped pipes for the exhaust, and just ordinary 2.5 for charge is sufficient. use tbolt clamps on the charge pipes and u will not blow out anything with up to 10psi. even reuse your stock manifolds since they retain heat better than headers, give manifolds a good coat of hi temp silver paint to keep the heat in the manifolds, and limit the radiating heat into surroundings.