anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Are any of you guys running a shim behing your crank pulley? It looks like my bracket might be too far out, because the bottom idler pulley is pushing the belt off the crank pulley towards the radiator. Check out these pictures.

-- Joe

89mulletbird

iTrader: (4)

I just shredded a belt on mine. I was told to remove the driver's side radiator fan so you can use a straight edge to square up the crank pulley with the supercharger pulley. I'll be checking it this week.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

use a laser pointer, much easier. As for shimming, just add some small shims between the supercharger and the bracket. Much easier that way.

89mulletbird

iTrader: (4)

How do you use a laser pointer to check it?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Well,my laser pointer not only creates a point, it creates a line. The laser is spread in a fan pattern. You can see a straight laser line across the belt and all the pulleys and belt misalignment is immediately apparent,

89mulletbird

iTrader: (4)

That's great, thanks!!

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

It's one of those laser level things used for home remodeling. They probably have them at harbor freight or home depot or something. Very cheap.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The pulley on the head unit isn't the issue, it's the idler that is closest to the crank.

-- Joe

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Make sure the idler pulley is tight. I had this issue before, the idler was not completely tight allowing it to sit angled towards the bracket and this angle causes the belt to walk forward since the tension gets lower with the angled idler. The idlers are quite a bit wider than the other pulleys, it would have to be really misaligned for the belt to start running on the edge. You could however simply shim the idler up, it's just a bolt and a nut through the idler bearing and a washer on the back. Don't see why you couldn't add a shim.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

If you look at the first picture I posted, look at the back side alignment. The belt is actually walking off the FRONT of the crank towards the radiator. So shimming the idler will just push it more towards the radiator. I need to somehow get the idler back towards the engine, or the crank pulley needs to come out towards the radiator.

Got a closeup of yours? Maybe mine is goofy as you suggested. I bought this kit used.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I spoke to ATI about this awhile back, if the inner side of the belt (engine side) is at least lining up with the inner wall of the idler pulley (engine side) to prevent it from hitting the engine, while the outer wall of the idler pulley extends further than the crank pulley, then you would either need a different idler pulley (shorter one with the correct spacing), or you could shim the crank pulley. They received so many complaints about this issue in the past, especially from the Mustang crowd...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You know. I've had a few Vortech kits and for years guys on this forum have always talked about ATI like it's the best and that us Vortech boys were second class.

Let me tell you, being my first procharger, the fit and finish of this kit is horrible. Whoever designed the tensioner system is on crack. How the heck do you tighten the nuts after setting belt tension? The belt alignment, the fact that they actually think 3/8" bolts (of a massive length) and spacers is not going to bend..

The manual looks like it was photo copied from a photo copy of a photo copy. Some of the pictures are so overexposed you have no idea what you are looking at. The details in the instructions are lacking.

I'll give 'em credit for making a self contained head unit that doesn't make a lot of noise, but the rest of the kit is a joke!

-- Joe

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I don't have a pic but I did have 3 of their crank spacers/adapters and none were exactly the same length. I used the shortest one on my custom setup on my 87 and have the longest one on my truck now and for that one I needed to cut down the spacers between SC and bracket.

Looking at your pic I see the belt is not running on the rear of the idler. The idler does have the usual rubbed off ridge on the rear from contacting the hex head huh
Anyway, it looks like the belt can go a little back on the idler without issues juding by the black I see.I would really try and shim the SC back a little. That will really help get the belt to stay on. I have fought this long and hard on the D1SC GTA and now on my 83 stepside truck w/ P600B. Aligning the head unit is the only way to keep the belt from walking.

I have tried the alu shims that canton sells. There is one problem however, you loose the stepped centricity of the alu spacer/adapter to the original pulley andf that makes it even more prone to being out of round/wobbly. I removed it and cut down the longer of the spacers/adapters I had.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

It is, the bracket and misc components are junk. The ATI instructions also read something like, bend this, clearance that, cut a notch here, cut hose and extend with 10 elbows, straight and a bunch of hose clamps...ram pipe into fender where it will not fit support bracket and rattle like mad...and then that silly battery relocation block LOL Junk!!!

Tightening the nuts is a pita, assuming you have a d1sc? You need a 9/16th socket, a long one and a short one and a 9/16th box wrench..a ratcheting one helps The long socket allows you to reach 2 of the 3 front bolts for the tensioner, the 3rd one you need to access from below or have skinny arms and the short socket allows you to cram it up in there.. no fun at alkl.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'll play with it more tomorrow.

The other issue I have is, although I'm using the appropriate size belt for the pulley configuration, my tensioner is bottomed out and the belt is still stupid loose.. Even if the tensioner could go more, the belt would contact itself.. As it is, it's like 1/4" apart.

-- Joe

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

You need a belt that's actually too short. Then you bolt on the SC a little loose so it can sit crooked, lay the belt over all the pulleys and have a helper handy. Lay the belt over the top of the SC pulley and with a large hammer, using the wooden handle against the belt and pulley guide it on while the helper bumps the starter. This is the only way I got the belt on tight with the tensioner not reaching the limit. Junk design..yet again!

Also not all belts are created equal, even if they are listed as the same length they probably are not. I tried dayco and gates belts and they were not the same lengths.

K080635 (Green Stripe) @ 64-1/4" - 1633 mm
K080644 ........................... @ 65" - 1651 mm
K080645 (Green Stripe) @ 65.5" - 1655 mm
K080653 ........................ @ 65-7/8" - 1675 mm
K080655 (Green Stripe) @ 66-1/4" - 1685
K080660 (Green Stripe) @ 66.5" - 1690 mm

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What's your take on the spring loaded tensioners some of the guys have adapted?

I really liked the vortech tensioner. Typical slot in an arch.

I went outside and pushed the belt all the way to the REAR of the bottom idler. I have a crank button (starter solenoid) under the hood. I tapped the button on and off and watched it. The belt starts to walk toward the center of the BOTTOM idler pulley, which then feeds itself off the front of the crank pulley.

The REAR SIDE of the bottom idler pulley is about .020" forward of the back of the crank pulley, so even with the belt stuffed to the rear it's already trying to walk off the crank pulley.

The idler pulleys and head unit pulley appear to be in alignment.

I can easily shim the head unit back, but where the belt needs to go is still beyond the rear lip of the idler pulley(s).

wtf..

-- Joe

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The idler pulley is just a pulley with a bearing, the distance to the bracket is set by a little spacer bushing that drops into the bearing ID. It's a stepped bushing and then the bolt and nut go through with a washer between the nut and front face of the idler bearing. In other words, if you are 100% sure it's the idler you could take it off, remove the bushing and mill it down a tad so the idler sits closer to the bracket.

Guest

what are all of your bolts torqued to?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm not 100%, but I can tinker more tomorrow and show an angle from the bottom with a straight edge.

It looks to me like it's a combination of the bottom idler pulley the belt off the crank pulley, and perhaps the lack of proper tension.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The 3/8 bolts holding the bracket on? Around 35 foot lbs.

-- Joe

vwdave

I had a similar problem with a P1SC install on a F150 Harley. After going WOT the belt would throw. What it was doing was on the bottom idler it was walking towards the front of the car and rolling over the pulley. After talking with ATI, I just decided to shim the bottom of the bracket outwards by 1/8". Solved the problem. The guy has had about 10k miles or so without a single belt issue.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm confused. If the belt was walking off the front, and you shimmed the bracket making the pulley even more forward, wouldn't the belt just want to walk off all that much more ?

-- Joe

vwdave

No, it moved the supercharger itself slightly back (due to pivoting) and the idler slightly forward. The belt would start towards the 1/3rd of the idler and would try to walk to the other 1/3rd, thus keeping everything happy.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I think he might mean that he shimmed just the upper half of the bracket with the head unit outward, which in turn would cause the lower half of the bracket with the idler pulley to move slightly inward at the same time...

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Definitely check to see if that idler pulley is tight, they shift like that if they are loose in anyway. To get a little more bet tension you could drill a new hole for the tensioner pulley and move it up about a inch on that little braket. Probably going to need a new belt to, you should have to unbolt the head unit to get the belt on. I found different brands of belts would stretch to much as well, only had luck with gates ones. You are right though, the whole braket and tensioner system is a joke on these cars. Also do you have the suport bracket from the head unit to alternator on? You need it to keep the braket from twisting forward as you tighten the tensioner and when you rev it up.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

That little bracket doesn't do a whole lot. It will still flex as the factory bracket is not very stuiff and the support rods on the alt are not in tension, they point down towards the exhaust and add vibration support...not a lot more.

I fabricated this, it has a threaded end that replaces one of the tensioner nuts, this relieves the tensioner to adjust and still pulls it tight all while supporting the whole deal from flexing back. It was the best mod I did to this system, no more belt issues.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Actually that little bracket does help, when I first got my kit before they even had the bracket made up I fab something similar to yours there. It worked good then I ordered the alt bracket later on. Last year I was messing around and forgot to put in my fab bracket in and just decided to use the alt one only, surprisingly I never had a problem at all, even reving up to 6500 and never lossed a belt, go figure...

vwdave

Yes, but the opposite. It forced the idler pulley slightly outward and the headunit slightly inward.

Guest

Everybody in here: post pics of your complete Procharger set up.

(don't question it just do it...)

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

why don't you start?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

My lower idler IS outward and that is what is making the belt walk off the crank pulley.

I played a little more, by pushing the head unit inward and it has no impact, the idler still makes the belt walk off the crank pulley.

My options are to somehow get the idler closer to the bracket, or move the crank pulley out.

If I recall, the harmonic balancer bolt holds the big spacer and stock crank pulley in place, so I think I can just remove the 3 bolts and add a crank pulley spacer as a last resort. I'm going to try messing with the idler first though.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Is this what you guys are saying:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...124-post2.html

That the pulleys are like this ?

-- Joe

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

yes, or the pulley along with the complete bracket is not perpendicular to the crank.

And yes, the big alu spacer is held in with the center bolt also so you can remove just the front pulley.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well, it sounds like I need to investigate this more tonight and figure out if it's the bracket alignment or spacing. I spent most of last night trying to figure out why my brand new $350 blower fan for the wood stove sounds like a pig being slaughtered when it's run...

Thanks guys

-- Joe

vwdave

Ok, I was posting my experience was all. I would think that you need to reduce the shims on the bottom of the bracket to move the idler assembly in or have a spacer for the crank pulley.

After looking at your picture, is it machining itself into the pulley? The idler looks WAAAYY too far outwards.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Yes. By shimming only the upper half of the bracket causing the head unit to move outward, the lower half of the bracket with the tensioner is forced inward...

Guest

Mines not complete...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I measured it every possible way. The idler and tensioner pulleys are inline with the pulley on the head unit.

The bracket appears to be parallel with the block. The pulleys appear to be parallel with each other.

The crank pulley is .200" inward compared to the other pulleys.

-- Joe

vwdave

I would try to get a spacer made to take up that difference in your crank pulley.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I appreciate your input. I suspect a lot of these are in or out for various quality control reasons.

Im not impressed about how easy it is to flex the whole bracket with just a small prybar...

So I took the crank pulleys and big aluminum spacer out. I'm going to run a small (around .187) shim between the aluminum spacer and the factory crank pulley. The hub on the aluminum spacer is over 1/2", so it will keep the pulleys and spacers centric with the factory pulley and balancer.

I just hope the postal service delivers my shims today or I turned heat on in the garage for nothing

Actually, I've got to machine a scope mount onto an old rifle so I suppose that will keep be busy until the postal carrier arrives.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That fixed it!

I had to cut the center of the shim out to 2.50" because the aluminum procharger spacer has a step in it to fit against the stock crank pulley. (the step is like .020" if that. Thinner than a washer.

As I had thought, the hub fits snug into the crank pulley, and even into the balancer. It pushes the blower pulley out just far enough that the belt is in perfect alignment.

-- Joe

Guest

Nice, pics?

vwdave

Good to hear man. Hope you get to enjoy it now.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Me too. Thanks!

I made the awful mistake of buying a used cat-back, and the previous owner had a cracked head and dumped about a quart of coolant into the muffler. It seems like it's taking forever to burn this stuff off.

Go go gadget smoke screen...

-- Joe