Lemme know when you start your install on the EBL-P4, wanna take the GTA out for some much needed VE tuning in the upper RPM's, and I figure a nice ride from New Jersey to Long Island to check your setup out, then over to Queens, then back to New Jersey will do the trick...

 

Remember im just doing the regular flash. The. P4 is for the SD cars and i dont want to repin all the wires or swap the harness. Its tbe same thing basicly minus 1-2 oddball things. You need to get your turbo install done!!!

 

Yeah, it's essentially the same thing but for the '7165 conversions. Once it gets there get it in asap and start tuning that boost. I am still planning the dyno to get some RWHP numbers without the turbo, and then with the turbo. Getting closer and closer to that point...

 

Perhaps only the more experienced tuners have noticed, but I guess I should have pointed something out with the video of the EBL-P4 Idle Completion for those new to tuning. The Lunati cam that I went with is tremendous in size for a 305, couple that with the amount of head work and intake work that I did and this little engine has become an absolute monster. Despite only have 10" inches of vacuum at idle, she is purring like a kitten at 900-RPM in Closed Loop running the stock narrowband O2 sensor. She is running that smooth with that big of a cam without a wideband, and again, in Closed Loop. Umm, can you say resolution? Just wait until I get my LC1 wideband in there to dial in the turbo. Once again, EBL-P4 for the win, hands down...

 

Don't make ANY changes or wire in the WBO2 to the EBL and post up where it really is with just the narrow band and EBL, it will be interesting to see where it really is at idle. May sell some more people on the EBL too

 

Where it really is at idle? The MAP, IAC and Injector data is right there on the screen to tell you exactly that through calculations. I am running stoich at idle. The only difference between narrow band and wide band is the bandwidth, and in naturally aspirated engines, which of course my engine is currently running in, it wouldn't make that much of a difference with a wideband, except for when the turbo goes on and I need the additional bandwidth for O2 correction. It would make a difference however in naturally aspirated situations when using a control system that does not have a self tuning feature, but since EBL-P4 has self tuning, I don't need to tune first with a wideband and then adjust injector pulsewidth like chip burners are relegated to do, the EBL-P4 dials in the VE for you. But at any rate, the 305 will go on the dyno with the narrowband. I already planned to do this...

I put up the results and do not say anything in terms of what it did and didn't do until it is proven, and I hide absolutely nothing. Other builds show absolutely nothing in their threads other than a few pics, yet say everything that was accomplished. The EBL-P4 does not need me, believe me, it essentially sells itself because it does what it was designed to do...

 

Yes while it should be at or very close to stoich, a wideband would be a way to validate that it's working like it's thought to, and if it's not perfect what is the offset/oscillation. Calculations with your available data can only take you so far especially at idle with residuals, overlap, etc. Sure you know fuel if you model the injectors correctly, but the actual mass flow of air into the cylinders is relatively unknown. The narrowband is essentially a discrete signal lean or fat, so it should do alright and get you close but idle can be funky sometimes. I spent a bunch of time tuning restrictor engines this spring and found that closed loop does not always behave as expected even though it runs well (that's why I'm curious to see some data)


As far as your claiming stoich idle currently, I hope it is stoich or real close as EBL seems like cool product I'd like to see that it really works well.

 

I can appreciate you delving into the world of wideband's, but again, my setup does not call for one at the moment. In the world of chip burning, we would tune in Open Loop, meaning we would tune our O2mv feedback, then once we were happy, there would no longer be a need for the wideband, you would simply re-install the narrowband and be done with it. As I said in my post above, with the EBL-P4 tuning the VE for you in a naturally aspirated application, there is no need for me to run a wideband at the moment. I am not tuning my O2's, I am tuning my BLM, and there is a tremendous difference in which area's we target to come to that "stoich" air/fuel ratio...

Claiming? Are you serious? Not wanting to sound condescending on my part, but you sound as if you are unsure on how to tune an engine in Closed Loop. Do you not know how an ECM calculates the INT/BLM, or which feedback the ECM uses to calculate the derivative for both? Do you think its' based solely on narrowband feedback? Widebands serve a purpose due to a larger bandwidth with that is needed under boost, but that is something that I do not need at this particular moment because the engine is not going passed 0 vacuum, aka idle. Like I said though, I keep this thread updated constantly as to where the project is at the moment, and dynograph's and track videos are soon to follow. That being said I make no claims, I show results.

 

Stock unheated NBO2 in a downpipe at idle controlling closed loop. Could you post the data showing the cold NBO2 sensor switching at idle?

Are the 60s in it or 19s? If the 19s are in it you will have to retune a lot at low PWs.

A cam of that size is pumping a lot of O2 in the exhaust and therefore your CL idle is very rich becuase the ECM is trying to correct for unburned O2. It will idle tame with a rich setting but not be efficient. Better to set CL off via a min threshold at idle with a cam that size.

 

All good tunes require a WBO2, plug cuts, and inspections regardless of intake system.

BLM is derived from O2 feedback using constants and lookup tables. Like it or not, it is using O2 to adjust your BLM values.

He is correct about your "stoich" idle not being a real stoich value. Your cam is putting extra unburned O2 in the exhaust so your NBO2 (or WBO2 if you had one) is fooled. Therefore the ECM is fooled to thinking it knows what the AFR is.

Bandwidth of the sensor being brought up is irrelevent. It has nothing to do with NA or boost. Although, closed loop algo transport delay comes into play with any sensor.

Very interested in seeing the NA dyno results with all the great work you did on the heads and TPI.

 

Again, my idle does not need a wideband, nor do I need to know where my O2mv's are to know if I am "stoich" running a Closed Loop idle. My BLM tells me this, and who here said that BLM doesn't use feedback from the O2? What I said was that I don't need wideband feedback for a naturally aspirated setup, I never said that it doesn't need an O2 sensor in general, that would be completely moot. My narrowband feedback is all that it needs to drive the integrator...

Your kidding, right? To think that I did not compare the EBL-P4 to my LC1 would be foolish on anyone's part because the cam did not hold an idle at first, in which later we realized it was something unrelated to the tune. Although the EBL-P4 is not using the LC1 feedback just yet, I do have the LC1 installed, and BLM matches O2mv perfectly. Nobody can say my "stoich" is not real at idle, only I can, and only Rauscher can because I send him my datalogs. If my ECM is apparently being lied to by the cam, then Lunati must be one heck of a liar because the spark plugs look fine to me, the exhaust smells fine to me, my calculations seem fine to me, my immediate off idle seems fine to me, it holds an idle at 900-RPM with only ten inches of vacuum, yet your going to tell me it isn't real lol? I posted a video, the O2 data is to the far right of the WUD screen. I know it is hard to see because the video camera is bad quality, and I apologize for that to you guys...

Downpipe...?

In the video the NBO2 switching is to the far right of the main WUD screen, from bottom to top it reflects 0, 250, 500, 750 and 1000. I cannot convert .dat to .mpeg as I originally wanted to, but if you have EBL software I can send you a datalog if you'd like...

It is running 19 pounders at the moment, the 60's go in when the turbo goes back on...

VE was dialed in last night at two in the morning, it now pulls like a freight train. Didn't touch pulse width's, didn't even touch AE and SA yet, either...

 

Small update. The LC1 wideband was scrapped because it was the wrong freaking color, so I sold that and picked up an Autometer 3378 Sport Comp Wideband from my buddy Paul. Has some pretty neat features. The engine tuning is getting closer and closer, its getting so damn smooth cruising around. Just need to work on off idle (AE) and Power Enrichment next, and this is where the wideband definitely comes into play, gonna install it later on tonight and hook it up to the EBL-P4 after a few more VE Learn sessions. Getting it to 6000-RPM on the highway is the easy part, the hard part is not getting pulled over because it sounds like I am running NASCAR lol...

 

can't wait for track times ...

 

Armor all'ed the a-pillar, gotta do the dash very soon cuz its dusty as hell...

 

The idle has been the biggest pain in the butt, still didn't fix the Neutral/Park switch yet, so the tables are a little off with and without a load, EBL-P4 always says its in gear. Its a ground, gotta pull the carpet and fix that, its just been way too freaking hot out to do it...

 

What a way to spend a beautiful Sunday, fixing a previous owner's mistakes. The GTA came from the factory with a T5 transmission, but somewhere along the line an automatic was swapped into it. Long story short, the PO pinned the neutral safety switch wiring into the TCC location, and pinned the TCC wiring into the neutral safety switch location into the ECM. Not to mention, the ground wire for the neutral safety switch (D1 in the ECM) is supposed to split in between the ECM and the shifter and get grounded to the engine, which of course it wasn't. Un-freaking believable, but at least it is finally resolved for good...

 

so what kinds of quarter mile times are you expecting ?

 

Nine seconds...

 

Subscribed.

 

does it feel like a nine sec. car ? i'm watching your build close . i like the underdog !

 

it won't have nine second potential until the turbo goes back on but right now she pulls extremely well and i am very happy with it. now with the idle issue resolved the ebl did a completely new ve learn which surprised me but the car runs one hundred percent better at idle and off idle. part throttle shes been pulling very hard but the transition from idle to part throttle is a hundred times better. i might go back into the engine and advance the cam four degrees if i can find the time to do that as i honestly should have done from the getgo but i'm talking myself out of that. went a little nuts with some Harwood parts and ordered a fiberglass decklid lexan rear hatch glass and fiberglass hood as i already have a set of lexan ttops. those parts are now ordered but now i am looking into fiberglass doors and fenders. i will do the dyno before those parts go on to get a baseline though as i know some of you have been waiting for that. forgive my lack of commas as i am writing this from a phone and it takes forever to find one

 

who gives a damn abotu commas, fiberglass parts yay, fiberglass doors nay, you will be stuck with with lexan windows which do not move, also they fit terribly so if this car sits outside its gonna get rained in. oooh good time to ask since your getting new body panels, is the car gonna stay black?

 

She is far from my daily driver, so the fiberglass doors and lexan windows are really no biggie for me, just planning on taking her down the 1/4 mile for now and have some fun with it. Gonna stay Black for now, but I have another color in mind when I get everything else done like the; suspension, brakes, new rim style, etc....

 

Im ready to see them too. Been watching this build for awhile. Ive got too much to learn to ever think of doing what you are. Props

 

Haha, thanks Mark, but I have nothing to teach other than to give the engine what it wants. Must have heard that saying a thousand times in the past, but it took RBob to reiterate that as I was dialing in the idle because the cam was fighting me at first, and I kept blaming the throttle body being too small for the cam, but he was right, it's not. Quality vids are coming soon, as well as some naturally aspirated call outs (naturally aspirated on my part). Will be running a 12 second Buick GNX first if he doesn't change the turbo by the time we line them up, as well as a modded LSX truck. Should be a good time. I missed the track last night, but the weather was absolutely incredible for boost...

 

hell yeah, you get those passes on video and post those timeslips with your badass NA 305

 

Win, lose or draw they're all getting posted.

Dyno is set for next weekend w/out the turbo...

 

Whats going on? What happened with the Dyno?

 

yes, we want more!!!!!!!!!!, oh no what if there was massive catastrophic failure? i hope not

 

im not sure what the limits of the 305 block are but once he starts making 9 second power, the block will be living on borrowed time.

from my own personal experience, even 20lbs is a lot. im at 6 psi(started at 16) while i build another short block with an aftermarket block.

i really hope it holds for you, as i know the feeling that it will come apart anytime!

 

Hey guys, no catastrophic failure, engine still pulls extremely hard, I just haven't had the time to drive it more frequently because of work. I was telling Dave over the phone (TwinTurboRoc) that the place I was going to bring it wants a substantial amount of money for dyno-tuning and pulls, and since then I just let the EBL-P4 dial in the fueling instead, I just set stoich to a richer setting during Closed Loop, as well as the targeted AFR to something richer during wide open throttle. Spark Advance has since been set, and Acceleration Enrichment, although a little tricky, has also been dialed in. The fiberglass parts got here awhile back, and I also nabbed a Magnaflow stainless catback exhaust with dual 3" exhaust pipes, all polished. Got a good deal on it, but its not installed just yet. Will definitely update this thread when I have pics and videos to throw up...

 

yay!

 

Installing a set of lower control arms that I picked up from a buddy tomorrow night...;

 

... also installing the 4th gen Magnaflow cat-back exhaust this Thursday or Friday;

 

Just read every page about this thread, HOOKED. Can't wait to see this "Boat anchor" as they call it, SPANKING the engine god touched "LS1's" =D

 

Lower control arms are in...

 

Awesome! Im staying tuned to this thread, amazing work so far!

 

Air has been unreal for boost lately, especially at night. Had a race setup with a buddy in his Grand National GNX running a T49 turbo, in which I thought was a solid twelve second car, so I figured I'd prep and run him naturally aspirated. Turns out he is running 11.0 with that tiny little turbo, so long story short, I am not bothering with natural aspiration anymore. I have the engine dialed in from so many different perspectives, so many different tuners, especially in the Turbo Buick community, everyone got involved and gave me their input, and I feel the EBL-P4, with the tune it is currently employing now, is the best that it will ever be up to 100kpa. Now it's time to up the ante, it's time for boost. As mentioned, the lower control arms were recently installed. I haven't done the 4th gen Magnaflow exhaust just yet because I need to fabricate the downpipe. A four inch downpipe is asking a lot for the amount of room I am working with, and the guys in the Buick world just told me to split the difference and run a 3 1/2" downpipe, and I agree. So that is next on the agenda this weekend, along with welding in the O2 bung and running/extending the wiring for my wideband sensor. Then I will have my buddy install the Magnaflow exhaust for me with three inch cutout. Right now I have the turbo headers back on along with the turbo, I installed the oil feed and return just after I took these two pics. In the pictures you will see just how long the new spark plug wires are, as I need to do a little trimming and tucking with them, and you won't even see them when all is said and done...

 

truly excellent, my 305 has been kicking my *** lately, i think its mad at me for attempting to start an ls swap

 

hey rob let me know when that turbo kit comes off , ive got cash

 

... whats up with the twins, getting rid of them?

 

no i need something for my truck i sold the d1sc procharger setup i had for it.
decided i didnt want to deal with slipping belts and all that, besdies turbo(s) would be better for the app[lication over a supercharger

 

In the words of Bruce Lee, when he interrupted his buddy who was labeling other fighting styles as pathetic and foreign; "... foreign or not, if it helps you to look after yourself when your in a fight, then you should learn to use it. It doesn't matter at all where it comes from, you should realize that". Now apply those words to any engine out there and go have fun with whichever direction you take your project, doesn't matter what you use, just as long as it works. Just be sure to make a build thread so others can benefit and learn from it.



Don't mind me by the way, I am just in a Bruce Lee mood lol...

 

yes my master, i will follow you in the ways of 5 point "OH" <--- thats HO backwards meaning **** it its cheapest to just keep my HO even after a new power steering pump and lines and fluid only to have it all run out the bottom of my steeringbox and my check engine light is still on for some reason 0.o no idea why, probably a "simple vacuum issue" as i laugh my **** off at the words simple vacuum issue on that car. anyways WE WANT MORE PICS get your jeet kun do *** in the garage and snap some haha

 

No problem, when everything comes off you have first dibs if you still need them...

I have plenty of pictures coming, more videos than pictures though. Just wait til you guys see what I am doing for the CAI. Not sure what you wanna see in the garage though, the only other thing I put on since I trimmed the spark plug wires was a red anodized throttle body plate...

 

oooooh shiny

 

Not much to update as of yet, other than a red anodized TPI cover plate and shortened spark plug wires. I also painted the blue anodized tag on the turbo charger a much nicer red anodized to enhance the red/black scheme that I went with. I tried a set of red oil lines to and from the turbo but it was way overkill so I am slapping on a braided set sometime today to help bring out the chrome valve covers, just need to redo the mechanical fuel pump block off plate as I tossed the one that I originally made by drilling it and welding a coolant port fitting to it for one with the right oil drain adapter fitting. Old exhaust is completely off...

 

It's alive... again.

First start for the 305 with the Turbo Charger...

 

running a lil rich there no?

nice fire ball , thing sounds good though

 

Tis called very first start, Open Loop rich, not to mention have not even touched the VE yet. What part of first start didn't you undertand lol? I'm just messing with ya bro, and thanks for the kind words, it does sound pretty good in the video, but it sounds absolutely insane in person. Wastegate goes in tomorrow (running a standalone EBC), downpipe is halfway there...