TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

8.5:1 compression, 91 octane fuel, no intercooler no meth injection and 25degrees timing at full throttle with 14psi

Apeiron

Ring gap was the biggest problem, it would seem.

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

too narrow?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I ran somewhat close to that boost and timing on 93 no meth but i have intercooler lol. That got alittle hot. Rings definately would want to close up

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

Wow you beat that up pretty good! How long did it last before that happened?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

Lasted a full year with high 10's low 11 second runs.

Now I need to learn from this mistake and progress forward. Next time around I will have methanol ready to inject and way more conservative timing tables. Also, I need to examine my ring gaps. I followed the manufacture recommendations included with my last ring set. Perhaps the higher then normal temperatures caused even those ring gaps to close up?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What was the gap? How far down is the first ring?

What air fuel ratio?

Intercooler is a wise investment

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

I cannot recall the gaps off hand, it was whatever JE suggested with their piston/ring combo. air fuel ratio was 11.5:1

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ah ok i have the recommendations for my je's. By there chart my car would be considered just about drag race blower/nitrous. .021-.023 gap but i am goin alittle wider. I wouldnt run any lower.

I ran .016-.018 on my 383 nitrous mil

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

ring lands gave away, typical with detonation for them to break off like that..maybe crappy fuel, water in fuel or just a tune that was barely making it and some parameters changed and this is the result? If the rings butted there should be marks in the grooves that show up as a shiny spot. Are the top grooves black?

given how clean the pistons are on the broken ones and the only intact one showing little soot, mixtures must have been off between cyls. Looks a little clean to me for a 11.5AFR

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

That looks rough.
I havent had that happen to me, not planning on it either.
No intercooler or meth. Kinda asking for it on forced induction.
Should look into at least a a/a ic for next round.
A/w with ice tank if u plan on racing it hard on a aggressive tune.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

HSR ?

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

i went 23psi on a 9.0-1 motor with 22/23* of timing intercooled on pump gas no issues
and thats with cast pistons and iron heads

to tight of a top ring gap will break the lands everytime specially if u get a lil detonation

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

Nah.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I don't think that was detonation (check for aluminum specs on the plugs from any cylinder that did not break, not 100% but I'd bet that you don't have any), that looks a lot like not enough ring end gap and/or the rings were too high up in the piston. Moving the rings down, different piston designs and materials all can affect what you end up needing, but with a power adder you really never want to run on the tight side... a little too loose is MUCH better than _any_ too tight.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i always go by the ring mfg instead of the piston mfg for specs.

i found that on the stuff i build i typically go .007-.009 per inch of bore.(typically around 3.5 inch bore engines)
on 4 inch or larger bore i typically go .006-.007 per inch of bore

works pretty good with me and i use cast pistons never had an issue on good forged stuff id be willing to close the total gap about .003-.004 on those numbers


in case of doubt though id rather go a lil large on the gap rather then just a lil to tight

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

For boost alittle large is ok lol. I am running je pistons with je ring pack which i believe he has as well. By their chart one would think street moderate blower nitrous would be the way to go which i think is .0045-.0050 per bore dia when i would rather see drag race blower recommendation of .0060-.0070. Or larger for high power high boost.

Pistons do look clean. Probably leaned out, overheated and rings butted, clipping off top land. Could happen and not detonate but do check.

project89

iTrader: (1)

see that .0045-.005 just seems to tight for me even on a somewhat mild street engine as the street engine will se emore heat then the drag race engine typically

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yup does seem tight. Thats a .018" gap on a 4.125" bore. I ran that on my 4.03" bore with mild nitrous use. I run .021-.023" now and been 18 psi no issues. I will be going to .025 top gap likely on my re ring

355sleeper

iTrader: (4)

My gapless total seals called for bore x .0045 top ring and second ring .0035. Thats what I used.

Apeiron

For what application, though?

355sleeper

iTrader: (4)

Twin turbo e85 406

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

Recently I have found that a lot of LS guys run a slightly wider second ring gap over the top ring gap. What do you guys think?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I run wider second ring gap than first. Seen that recommended by many engine builders

355sleeper

iTrader: (4)

Well that sucks I hope im alright with my ring gaps then. Id hate for this to happen to me. Im gapped at what i mentioned above

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Gapless total seal rings may not be the same as a regular file to fit ring Trust the ring manufacturer or seek advice from an experience engine builder. But quick search on their site i am finding gapless top rings call for .0070 for blown gas. What ring set do you have?

355sleeper

iTrader: (4)

I have this ring set

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ts...-155/overview/

The above is what the insructions called for in blown gas/blown alcohol

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Interesting. Sounds low unless those have a different instruction set? Website for second rings are about that tight but top is still .0055-.007 depending.

Regardless if you are stuck with it, just do your best to keep it cool. Cool water temps and cool chamber temps from a safer tune. Not too much advance not to lean. Try that and it should be safe for moderate power goals

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

I bought new rings for my new pistons on my engine rebuild.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tsr-cs3690-35
Speaking with the Total Seal rep, we agreed on this set. Steel top ring and Napier second ring. I will probably go with a few thousands wider second ring like Orr89RocZ mentioned as well as what I have researched on many other sites. I'd rather go too loose then worry about being within mfg specs. Hopefully the Napier ring will help control oil consumption with these looser rings.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i use standard moly or plasma moly rings in all my builds. and nothing else.
i have heard really good things about the hellfire rings though i would try a set of those they are 140 bucks cheaper and supposed to be the toughest rings in a blown/turbo or nitrous app

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hellfires i heard are tough on cylinder walls lol may need special hone surface finish to properly break in. I am not sure

Second ring is lower than first ring which means its away from the chamber heat which causes rings to close up. So by that manner you should beable to run a narrower second gap. But alot of builders dont do it that way. Alittle oil past the second ring to cool the first isnt a bad idea

355sleeper

iTrader: (4)

After speaking with total seal I was told the crg series werent a good idea past 15psi so I picked up the csh series which has a steel top ring. He said to gap mine at . 026-.027 top and 2nd ring. Glad I seen this or I would have experienced the same thing

project89

iTrader: (1)

this is true that they are tougher on cyl walls , they also need a rougher finish on walls to properly seal. realistically its no more work then using a set of moly rings

we use standard moly rings in the blown alky dragster and that engine makes 3,500-4,000 hp , u guys wouldnt belive the amount of standard off the shelf parts that engine does use
thats why i trust and only use moly stuff in my builds

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

Is that about a .006/.007 x bore?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

what are the ring material?

project89

iTrader: (1)

on the moly stuff or the hellfires

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

the molys

project89

iTrader: (1)

depends most are ductile iron and others are steel

i always use perfect circle or sealed power rings

ZZ3Astro

I went with Total Seal TS1's and can't find the paperwork to see what material the top ring is.. anyway I went by the book on the gaps. I've been smoking since forever ago and the engine has to come back apart. I've found numerous threads about issues with Total Seal rings seating properly in forced induction engines. Just an FYI and personal experience. I don't think I've got broken ring lands. I sure hope not with a $700 set of pistons! My luck though...

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

Smoking out the taipipe with oil consumption or valve cover bypass smoke?

ZZ3Astro

I have both. Very little but you can smell it and see a little at idle from the tail pipe. Same with the valve cover, very little but there. Not worse with boost - or at least I'm not blowing oil out of the valve cover vent or pushing the pcv valve out at 18 psi. Oil consumption is also not significant but is there.

355sleeper

iTrader: (4)

Yep right in the middle. My bore is 4.155.

What converter are you running and what were you trapping at rpm wise vs where peak power is made with those 3.08s? Im trying to decide on what gear I should use with a 5500 stall, or just bite the bullet and buy another converter

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I want my converter just above the boost threshold rpm and gears to make me trap near peak hp rpm in the 1/4 mile. If you are in between ratios by the calculation, go towards the smaller numerical gear. Street car with loose stall definately go abit more highway gear than you would for track car

Do the math for tire diameter vs mph vs rpm to see what you need. 700 whp 3500 lbs should go 140's mph so gear accordingly. My old combo was done by 5800 so i ran 2.73's. new combo should spin 6800 so i have 3.42's with slightly taller tire

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

how are your heads.... did you check the guides/seals?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

You run pcv? do you feed it back into the intake tube? I just ran two hoses from my valve covers into a catch can. I hope my new Napier rings help control oil consumption with my wider gap this time around.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i have my v6 car setup for a catch can

1 -8 line from each valve cover fed into the middle of a catch/oil seperation can that i made
then 1 -10 line from the top of the can to the turbo inlet

when the turbo spools up it pulls the gases and lil bit of oil from the valve cover , the reason the lines are attached to the middle of the can is so that oil drops to the bottom before the air/gases are sucked into the turbo inlet

the system works great , but i found out i didnt need it on that engine so i disconected it

this type of system works best with a air filter that is sized just right or just a tiny bit small for the aplication as this increases the vacum applied and creates more suction at the valve covers

if not running an air filter u can setup the suction line at the turbo inlet like u do a header evac system with the bungs in the collector at an angle

project89

iTrader: (1)

here u can see the can as i was building the system

ZZ3Astro

I had the heads redone completely and used some expensive seals at that.

Yeah just the stock PCV setup. I was going to build an in-line PCV as well, so basically a PCV to PCV since they don't really seal so well. I figured the drop from one to the next would do well enough, but haven't had any issues just running the single. On the vent side I have a small K&N plugged in the other valve cover.

obeymybird

iTrader: (4)

You still rocking the holley hp efi?

TraviZ

iTrader: (2)

me? yes.