Chronicles of a 9 Second Trans Am... Final Chapter

[Orr89RocZ]

I believe theres a boost timing subtracting table in ebl. I cant remember tho

Although the map sensor says 1 bar in that screen

[anesthes]

Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ

I believe theres a boost timing subtracting table in ebl. I cant remember tho

Although the map sensor says 1 bar in that screen

That's what I'm confused about lol



-- Joe

[Street Lethal]

Originally Posted by anesthes

That's what I'm confused about lol



-- Joe

You don't read what you quote lol!!!!

In the post I threw up with that video, I mentioned I had to do some quick VE tuning because I switched back to the 1 Bar MAP sensor for the dyno. I did this for resolution, as Ida is more than likely going to want to play with it when he dyno's it. Once the engine is dyno'ed the turbo is going right back on along with the 2 Bar MAP sensor. Also, if you watch the cAFR as I blip the throttle, is stays at 14.5, and the PE box doesn't light up. This is because when I had the turbo on I needed to tune the VE table with the heated narrowband while avoiding Power Enrichment (wideband Learns in PE, narrowband does not), so I maxed out both tables to disable PE. It shoots up to four grand when I blip the throttle, but once I reactivate Power Enrichment it will shoot up to six grand in the RPM band when I blip the throttle just as fast. However, I noticed that I forgot to reactivate PE after I threw up that video yesterday, and that pretty much might point to why oil was shooting out of the front seal in the first place. The bin is a continuation from last year, I honestly forgot I disabled PE.

- Rob

[anesthes]

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

You don't read what you quote lol!!!!

In the post I threw up with that video, I mentioned I had to do some quick VE tuning because I switched back to the 1 Bar MAP sensor for the dyno. I did this for resolution, as Ida is more than likely going to want to play with it when he dyno's it. Once the engine is dyno'ed the turbo is going right back on along with the 2 Bar MAP sensor. Also, if you watch the cAFR as I blip the throttle, is stays at 14.5, and the PE box doesn't light up. This is because when I had the turbo on I needed to tune the VE table with the heated narrowband while avoiding Power Enrichment (wideband Learns in PE, narrowband does not), so I maxed out both tables to disable PE. It shoots up to four grand when I blip the throttle, but once I reactivate Power Enrichment it will shoot up to six grand in the RPM band when I blip the throttle just as fast. However, I noticed that I forgot to reactivate PE after I threw up that video yesterday, and that pretty much might point to why oil was shooting out of the front seal in the first place. The bin is a continuation from last year, I honestly forgot I disabled PE.

- Rob

You guys need to be consistent with your information release. Sometimes it's in the video, sometimes it's in the post. jeez.

-- Joe

[Street Lethal]

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

... as Ida is more than likely going to want to play with it when he dyno's it.

By the way, this is Ida Performance in case they sound familiar to my fellow OG's. Five minutes from my house. Long overdue dyno time with them. They are the only guys left in New Jersey that will even touch Tuner Pro, let alone know it inside and out...

[Street Lethal]

Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ

I believe theres a boost timing subtracting table in ebl. I cant remember tho

Although the map sensor says 1 bar in that screen

Hey Justin, you had a 4th gen like I did. Does the Walker replacement intermediate pipe, as well as the over the axle pipe fit the third gen? I don't mind some alterations, but is it at least close? What I'm running isn't really mandrel bent, and it's a little hacked up, and since the Walker is already 3", as well as inexpensive, it would make sense to just throw it on. Do you have any idea how close in terms of dimensions the 4th gen over the axle and intermediate tube is with the 3rd gen?

- Rob

[Orr89RocZ]

Eh it should be close from about mid way under body back over axle. The thirdgen y and 4 th gen y are way different if i recall right, they dump in different locations. The walker pipe i bought was a replacement 2.25 for my thirdgen. I dont remember what my stock 4th gen looked like

[Street Lethal]

It's funny how, even today, most guys think of the TPI as this mighty "torque" intake setup, but when you delve into the bin you can see why that is. The timing is freaking hilarious, and both the SA and PE come in like Roseann Barr falling from the Empire State Building... BAM, but then of course falling short (career wise in her case) ouch lol. Anyways, Power Enrichment is done, and I don't have it coming in like that. We're getting fifteen inches of snow tomorrow for our second day of Spring if you can believe it, so I have to wait on more videos, but the next video should be on the road. Only suction cup holder I could find for that go-pro I have was for forty freaking dollars at Walmart, the ten to fifteen dollar gismo seemed to be missing in action. Then again, it was more than likely one of them "online only" discounts. Meh...

- Rob

[Street Lethal]

Working on mid to upper VE today, hoping to get the car out for a ride later this evening. PE re-enabled, set its' target to 12.5. Still working on the upper VE, but already she's looking to pull pretty high very quickly for a measly 305. Rev limiter set to 6200. Not bad for a stock TPI system ehh...

- Rob

You Tube

You Tube

[Street Lethal]

Tuning off idle. Not foot braking whatsoever because I get absolutely no traction just touching the freaking throttle pedal as it is, so I eased into it lol. Was letting off, then hitting it, then letting off, etc, could have went sideways the length of the block if I stood in it lol. Hood and headlights were wet sanded that's why they look dull. Yup, my neighbors just adore love me lol...

-Rob

You Tube

You Tube

[Street Lethal]

Originally Posted by anesthes

Where is the peak? Dyno graph?

When I used to run the ported siamesed TPI in the late 90s I'd rev it to about 6200 too, but that was more so when I grabbed the next gear it wasn't way under the power band. When I swapped it out to a singleplane it actually made power at 6200. Thread is from 2002 or so.

-- Joe

When I ordered the cam through Lunati they recommended a 6000-RPM rev limit, but they didn't know what cylinder heads I was running. I set the RPM limit based on what the VE & DC are showing me, and the damn engine keeps eating up there. I see the Duty Cycle, and I know what injectors I'm running, and I don't want to give it away just yet because I want the dyno to surprise everybody... including myself, because I only have an idea of what it's going to make based on what I know and see in the datalogs. Dyno is coming soon, car is back on the road, VE up top is done. Just remember this is a stock TPI system right down to the 48mm Throttle Body sitting on a 305 w/Cometic MLS head gaskets, with static compression just at, or even a tad under, 9:0. Again, the heads are 416 ported irons, and although I ported them to the max, they retain the stock valve sizes. Not to mention flat tappet cam. Old school baby. Dyno day is going to be fun as hell...

- Rob

[Orr89RocZ]

Dynos are almost always disappointing lol

[Street Lethal]

It's not so much about the peak horsepower. I think you of all people must have figured out why I was doing this since the beginning. Nothing high tech under the hood, factory parts, it's not a 350, and it's still running the HEI distributor. There is no question she should make more than my C4 LT1 did, she pulls harder, and this engine has less cubes, smaller heads, horrible intake and ignition setup in comparison, less compression, but bigger cam. Nobody should be expecting anywhere near 400 horsepower because that's not going to happen, but just as long as she betters my old LT1 Corvette, then it's right where it needs to be before the turbo goes back on...

- Rob

[Street Lethal]

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

... then it's right where it needs to be before the turbo goes back on.

... or F1R lol.

- Rob

[Orr89RocZ]

I am curious but based on a cam only refresh L98 using stock everything else i was very disappointed in the results. Sounded good tho but didnt make much more than what some cars do stock and thats with long tube headers and dual exhaust. Stock tpi kills them

The real magic is when the turbo comes in. That is definitely proven and a proper programmed boost curve will get you power and extend peak rpm

[Orr89RocZ]

Originally Posted by anesthes

That hasn't been my experience with a supercharger. Why would the turbo change the powerband but the supercharger not? Boost is boost.

Back before chinese turbos everyone and their grandmother was bolting blowers to their L98 cars in the 90s, and the SLP cam's were what everyone was buying. When people started swapping minirams and single planes the cars really started going fast, with no pulley/blower changes.

-- Joe

I saw the same effect with a blower. Blower it should happen more so than turbo because centris are boost by rpm. Higher you rev generally blower puts out more boost if sized right

Turbo generally hits max boost early and maintains it so power follows the na curve to a point. If you have a good programmable boost controller and possibly can boost by rpm or simply by time during the pull, you will have same effect. Boost increase past peak hp will delay the falling ve normally seen since most setups make 15-30 hp per lb boost. Racey setups even more

Tpi car 4400 rpm and 7 psi might make as much hp as same setup at 5500 rpm and 12 psi. You “extend” the power band by replacing the na curve by forcing it to respond

[Street Lethal]

Originally Posted by anesthes

Boost is boost.
-- Joe

Hellz no. Think of it this way, a Supercharger is like a mechanical fuel pump that has to be sped up to create its' pressure, but that pressure reaches a limit because it cannot be pumped any faster, whereas a turbo-charger is more like an electric fuel pump pumping out a tremendous amount of pressure from the getgo that has to be slowed down to make the very same pressure. The latter comes in earlier, peaks earlier, and lasts throughout the entire RPM band that way. Great example of average vs peak, the turbo simply annihilates it, pound for pound (hehe).

Off topic, but guys, can you believe this? Freaking awesome, it's about damn time!

You Tube

You Tube

[Orr89RocZ]

You are one of the most clueless ppl i have seen online when it comes to boosted stuff lmao

I am not even gonna waste time correcting that

[Street Lethal]

Joe, think of what you're saying. A centrifugal supercharger puts out a fixed amount of air per RPM because its' circular motion is subjected by RPM. At a certain RPM the particular supercharger puts out a fixed amount of cfm, regardless of engine size, it's fixed. If the supercharger is spinning at 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 or 6000 RPM, whether on a SBC, LSX, BBC, whatever, the cfm is fixed at each RPM for the specific supercharger and pulley combo, and the RPM is linear. The boost gradually rises as the engine increases RPM. With a turbocharger, increased exhaust pressure spins the exhaust wheel, and turbo's spin way faster at a given RPM than a supercharger does, and this is why a wastegate is obviously needed, to regulate it. Think of it this way, a supercharger pulley'd up to provide 20-psi on a given engine will get there when it reaches a specific RPM, but that's it, the only way to increase psi with a supercharger is to install a smaller supercharger pulley, or larger crank pulley. Now with a turbo-charger, you set the wastegate for the same 20-psi, but the amount of pressure behind it lying in wait is the key, it's always there. A turbo's boost curve is insane on the dyno, especially when it is properly sized with the engine...

- Rob

[DIGGLER]

My take on it-

if you are pullied to max impeller speed at 6000 rpm, you will make peak boost right around there too. lets say 12 psi with the t trim. will make some boost at cruising rpms and always ready to go with no waiting.

if you had a similar sized turbo, you could possibly hit the 12 psi by 4000 rpm and still carry it out the back door. however, you may have some lag at cruising rpms.

boost is just a measure of pressure in the intake. a bigger blower turning the same speed as a smaller one is going to make more boost because its moving more air into the same restriction.

wow this got childish.

[Orr89RocZ]

Correct the turbo is not limited by engine rpm. Just exhaust energy which is manipulated by tune, piping designs, turbine wheel size and housing ar and finally rpm lol. There is a engine rpm threshold in which the turbo will make max boost. This is always gonna be sooner than the centri blowers when sized right because turbo shaft speed is almost always higher than blowers. More boost sooner is more power because its more mass flow. Under the curve power is much greater in a proper turbo build since it will reach max flow rate (wastegate setting) sooner

Blower car i tuned couple yrs ago did make practically instant boost starting at roughly 3000 ish rpm hit. Manual trans car so no flash stall. It saw roughly 3-4 psi in that 3000-3200 rpm range and eventually got to 12 psi by 6000. It was a tpi car. 383. Every tpi car i have seen peaks in the mid 4000 rpm range. This one made 7-8 psi by its peak hp of something like 530 whp about 4400-4500 ish rpm. I’d have to go to the shop to get a copy of the graph. But!! Boost increasing to 12 psi by 6000 the car was still making 520-530 whp! This is what i mean by extension of peak rpm. If it was a turbo car holding 7 psi it would nose over at 4500. Both my turbo cars had a na like power curve as expected with the setup.

The power curve can always be manipulated with boost but it takes a good controller and a good setup. This is also how you go 1.1’s 60 foots on 275 tires. Power management and boost curve

[Orr89RocZ]

You Tube

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When sized right things happen quickly with turbos. 55-60 roll is where my last deal worked! Thats going from vacuum to 24 psi in about a second. To me thats not lag

[Street Lethal]

Originally Posted by DIGGLER

if you are pullied to max impeller speed at 6000 rpm, you will make peak boost right around there too. lets say 12 psi with the t trim. will make some boost at cruising rpms and always ready to go with no waiting.

if you had a similar sized turbo, you could possibly hit the 12 psi by 4000 rpm and still carry it out the back door. however, you may have some lag at cruising rpms.

boost is just a measure of pressure in the intake. a bigger blower turning the same speed as a smaller one is going to make more boost because its moving more air into the same restriction.

wow this got childish.

There's a yay and a nay to that, IMO. Identical engines and identical everything, then yes, boost is just a resistance measure and the same power will be made at the same boost level for each. But now if you have two identical engines, but two different intake diameters, then boost is still a resistance measure, but the same boost levels are no longer the same in terms of flow and the larger intake will make more power at the same boost pressure because you increased the volume of the same resistance. The only way a supercharger could match a turbo charger in terms of boost would be by running a larger supercharger, pully it up as much as it will go, then controlling it by bleeding the charge. This would be replicating what the turbo does, a controlled over boosting scenario.

- Rob

[DIGGLER]

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

increased the volume of the same resistance.

- Rob

boost is boost is boost though. what you are talking about is the flow of the system. the larger intake should have LESS resistance, therefore boost pressure should go down while still moving the same or more air. but really the intake is just a fraction of it- there is also head flow/camshaft/etc.etc.etc.
a sb2.2 at 12psi is moving waaay more air than a stock sbc at 12psi.

[Orr89RocZ]

Originally Posted by DIGGLER

boost is boost is boost though. what you are talking about is the flow of the system. the larger intake should have LESS resistance, therefore boost pressure should go down while still moving the same or more air. but really the intake is just a fraction of it- there is also head flow/camshaft/etc.etc.etc.
a sb2.2 at 12psi is moving waaay more air than a stock sbc at 12psi.

You are right. He was saying if they both made same boost the larger intake one would be flowing more mass which may or may not be true if heads and cam were identical. Intake alone may adjust flow/boost in minor ways compared to complete top end differences

And 12 psi from a t4 60 mm is not same mass flow as a 88mm t6 operating at same pressure

[Street Lethal]

Guys think of what you're saying, and we're talking about the same size turbo. Boost pressure is just telling you how hard the turbo is working to pressurize the intake system, from the turbo's outlet, to the combustion chamber. If both engines are identical from oil pan to throttle body, as well as the same size turbo, but one is running 2 1/2" intake tubing with 3" Intercooler, and the other is running 3" intake tubing with 4" Intercooler, the smaller diameter will have more of a resistance against the turbo's charge, in turn creating more resistance pressure. What that means is the former would create more resistance forcing less of a volume, and the latter will create less resistance while forcing more of a volume (at the same boost pressure setting). Running two different size turbo's with the exact same setup, including the intake and Intercooler size, only creates more lag with the larger turbo, and more heat from the smaller turbo, with the same boost setting...

- Rob

[Orr89RocZ]

Turbos flow mass not volume. An 88 wheel at a 2:1 pressure ratio may flow 100 lbs a min. A 70 mm may flow 60. Thats not the same hp worth of flow

To really know whats goin on you need shaftspeed

[Street Lethal]

Busy busy day, for everyone else I'm sure as well. Got home not too long ago and figured I would start the GTA up because I had it sitting. Ahh yes, another problem arises. Had the engine reach operating temperature, but then it just kept on going lol. Started to see smoke rising out of the vents I made in the hood, and the fans weren't kicking on, despite being commanded to do so. Fuses are all good, but they won't even trip when I trigger them through the ALDL...

During key on though I noticed something straining electrically in the engine bay when nothing should even be triggered, and other than the fans themselves I can't see anything else being the culprit. Starter is fine. Anyways, once resolved, I'll set the date for the dyno and post up when it's going to happen. Kinda weird that both fans would go at the same time, I need to check to see if they were hitting and rubbing into each other. Weird.

- Rob

[anesthes]

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

Busy busy day, for everyone else I'm sure as well. Got home not too long ago and figured I would start the GTA up because I had it sitting. Ahh yes, another problem arises. Had the engine reach operating temperature, but then it just kept on going lol. Started to see smoke rising out of the vents I made in the hood, and the fans weren't kicking on, despite being commanded to do so. Fuses are all good, but they won't even trip when I trigger them through the ALDL...

During key on though I noticed something straining electrically in the engine bay when nothing should even be triggered, and other than the fans themselves I can't see anything else being the culprit. Starter is fine. Anyways, once resolved, I'll set the date for the dyno and post up when it's going to happen. Kinda weird that both fans would go at the same time, I need to check to see if they were hitting and rubbing into each other. Weird.

- Rob

Did you check the voltage at the fans with a test lamp?

-- Joe

[86CamaroDan]

Single fan or dual? They share a relay?

[Street Lethal]

The fans were rubbing. The upper and lower fan brackets eventually need to be replaced. If you look at any picture I posted of the engine bay, you'll notice the upper fan bracket on the drivers side is damaged. The underside is worse, and I only have zip ties holding the fans in place, as well as keeping them separated from one another. One zip tie lost its' original position and somehow moved, and the fans were hitting into each other, had trouble spinning them by hand, and that immediately explained the straining noise. Also explained the noise I heard from inside the car when I Flashed in the latest bin before any of that happened. Went underneath the other day and made sure they were held in place securely until the new brackets eventually get here. Yes though, the fans are wired together through the EBL-P4 for full control of both of them. That was one of the things I did when it happened that day, I pulled the fuel pump relay and connected it then tripped the ALDL, but nothing. Unbeknownst to me they were wedged. Fixed now.

- Rob

[Street Lethal]

Originally Posted by Orr89RocZ

Eh it should be close from about mid way under body back over axle. The thirdgen y and 4 th gen y are way different if i recall right, they dump in different locations. The walker pipe i bought was a replacement 2.25 for my thirdgen. I dont remember what my stock 4th gen looked like

I went with them Justin, true 3".

Funny thing is, I had to order them individually from two separate outlets. Advanced Auto had one, and Autozone had the other. Ordered them this past Thursday morning, and one got here last night, and the other is arriving today. Pretty damn fast if you ask me, as I wasn't expecting them until next week. Anyways once the other piece gets here I'm having an exhaust shop slap them on for me, I'm not cutting and welding anymore, I'm hanging it up lol. Dyno looks like it will be happening next weekend for the naturally aspirated portion, and then its effin turbo time again...

- Rob

[Street Lethal]

Other piece just got here, so now it's off to the muffler shop. Will have a full exhaust clip up later today... then I'll schedule something with Ida this week.

- Rob

[anesthes]

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

I went with them Justin, true 3".

Funny thing is, I had to order them individually from two separate outlets. Advanced Auto had one, and Autozone had the other. Ordered them this past Thursday morning, and one got here last night, and the other is arriving today. Pretty damn fast if you ask me, as I wasn't expecting them until next week. Anyways once the other piece gets here I'm having an exhaust shop slap them on for me, I'm not cutting and welding anymore, I'm hanging it up lol. Dyno looks like it will be happening next weekend for the naturally aspirated portion, and then its effin turbo time again...

- Rob

I might sell my 3" exhaust. I got the car aligned yesterday. I attempted to get an inspection sticker as well, but nobody will pass it because the exhaust is too loud. Thinking maybe since I have long tubes I should just do two mufflers middle of the car and go over the axle and out each side.. I dunno.

The other problem is the tires break loose every time I step on the throttle. If I'm going down the road, 30-40mph and I step on it, even at like 50% throttle I get like 5psi of boost when the converter grabs and the *** end kicks out. Maybe my tires are just hard from age?

So now I'm looking for sticky tires too.

Never ends.

-- Joe

[Street Lethal]

Joe, I wouldn't go the dual muffler route. Just get an aftermarket 3" resonator, it will greatly reduce the noise level in conjunction with the muffler. You won't lose that much power with it whatsoever, especially if you're already breaking loose at part throttle. Just section it after the y-pipe meets the intermediate pipe, plenty of room before the axle...

- Rob

[anesthes]

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

Joe, I wouldn't go the dual muffler route. Just get an aftermarket 3" resonator, it will greatly reduce the noise level in conjunction with the muffler. You won't lose that much power with it whatsoever, especially if you're already breaking loose at part throttle. Just section it after the y-pipe meets the intermediate pipe, plenty of room before the axle...

- Rob

Hey Rob,


I'm not that worried about power loss, car is already too fast for the street. I wonder if too much backpressure would cook the exhaust valves though.. hrmm.

Maybe I'll give it a try. I have a ton of room.





-- Joe

[Street Lethal]

That's the perfect spot for it...

- Rob

[Street Lethal]

Well so much for having the exhaust done by the shop, the kid that I usually hook up is not there, and when they ran the work through the computer it spit out the cost for a few cuts and welds, and after I stopped laughing in their faces four to five minutes later, I decided to just do it myself and spend the money elsewhere. Soooo, I bought the much needed replacement alternator, and I nabbed an Optima red top battery which I am picking up later, got 25% off for buying them online first, so I'm happy. Wasn't about to give the shop that much for something I can do myself, no freaking way. Anyways, time to get down and dirty.... again.

- Rob

[Street Lethal]

Woops, forgot to add the pic. That other hideous one is gone, thank God.

- Rob

[Street Lethal]

Okay, he just got back to me for the dyno...

New plugs, fresh oil w/filter was already being done before hand. So;

Base line dyno $175 , 1 hr
Additional dyno time $150 per hr
Advise Tuning your software $125 per hr
A/f bung $85, if you don’t have an extra accessible one in your exhaust system...

Won't need more than an hour as the engine is already tuned, so the additional dyno time does not apply. I don't think I will even use or even need the full hour lol. Need no advice on tuning my software because my man RBob took care of all of that years ago, hehe. A/F bung also does not apply as I have three of them lying in wait to be used in the exhaust stream. So $175 for the hour, or in my case, twenty minutes lol, is fine. I'll deal with it...

- Rob

[Street Lethal]

Also, wanted to share with you guys who are following along. Ever since I installed this replacement 305 I have had oil issues seeping out the front main seal on the timing chain cover at high RPM. Tried every conceivable fix, but it just kept happening. Then it dawned on me. Yes, prepare for a Homer Simpson moment lol... when I installed this 305, I replaced the rod bearings, put in fresh new oil w/filter, then primed the engine beforehand with a priming tool. Pictures were up, but photobucket has since become irrelevant, so the pictures aren't there earlier in this thread. The engine oil now seems to be stable between the Full mark and Add mark on the dipstick. Now, I know for a fact that the oil dipstick is the right one for this engine. I bought it from a local member. However, it still didn't dawn on me just yet why oil was shooting out the front and at high RPM only. It was overfilled. No doubt about it. Look at the oil filter I went with (Bosch), it is half the size of a normal filter. I completely forgot I went with that one, so even though I filled the engine with the correct amount of oil based on the larger filter that would hold a quart, I never compensated for the smaller oil filter which would normally hold half of a quart on its' own, which resulted in rising a tad too high at higher RPM because there was more oil in the pan, but is now stable between Full and Add...

- Rob

[DIGGLER]

overfilling one shouldnt make it leak, though. most likely a seal/gasket leaking.

[anesthes]

Originally Posted by DIGGLER

overfilling one shouldnt make it leak, though. most likely a seal/gasket leaking.

It would have to be substantially overfilled. Ever drop 5 quarts in a stock oil pan to see how high up it goes? It doesn't even come close to the gaskets.

The crank counterweights would be churning it like butter.


Leaks suck. My blower is pissing oil for some reason, out of a spot it shouldn't be.

-- Joe

[Street Lethal]

Guys, telling myself it's because of the oil filter is the only thing keeping me sane lol. The worst part is that it does not do that with the turbo hooked to the exhaust on a full oil pan, it only does it with a free flowing exhaust with no turbo, and only at high RPM, which would point to the damn piston rings. However, it is stable now where it is, regardless of RPM, so that is a good sign. Telling myself it is because of the smaller oil filter is what is keeping me from torching the damn car...

It's definitely coming from the front seal.

- Rob

[DIGGLER]

if the balancer had any grooves worn into it, you need a repair sleeve for it.
also, excessive crankcase pressure will find any weak seals/gaskets quickly and spew oil out.