When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
So I just purchased a used procharger P1-SC kit with intercooler. It will be going on a mostly stock MAF L98 with about 20,000 miles. I am looking for some advise/help making sure I have everything I need for the install and to ensure my engine is protected. The kit did not come with any fueling upgrades.
Mods that may pertain:
SLP runners
Comp Cams 1.6 RRs
2800 Stall
Unk Brand shorty headers, with y pipe and full exhaust
Adjustable fuel pressure regulator
The kit comes with the 9psi pulley. I also have a Walbro 255lph fuel pump on the way. I will have a boost gauge, fuel pressure gauge and looking into a wideband O2. I will be going with NGK UR6 plugs.
What am I missing? Unfortunately I have two PROMS but neither are stock one is a Performace Resource Prom and the other is a SLP Prom. Is it too much of a risk to use either until I can tune it?
Can I run it on stock 22lb injectors with just my adjustable fuel pressure regulator bumped up to 50psi? If I buy a FMU is there any specific one I should look for or, s a FMU a bandaid and if so does that mean I can run it safely on 24lb injectors with a custom Prom and no FMU?
Like I said any advise is welcome on additional upgrades I will need. Picture of my car because pictures make everything better!
Last edited by Missed Exits; Oct 31, 2020 at 12:17 PM.
Nine pounds of boost pressure is an increase of 63% in power. For arguments sake, if your engine makes 250 horsepower, it will make, approximately, 157 more horsepower, totaling about 407 horsepower. 24# injectors will max out at about 350 horsepower at 100% duty cycle. You will need more injector to cover yourself for that amount of boost, and considering you are somewhat modded, you may even be making more than 250 horsepower to start off with. If you're not planning any more than 9-psi, then get your hands on 42# injectors... and have someone burn you a proper chip for your MAF setup. MAF Translators can be made to work as well. Plenty of choices out there.
Nine pounds of boost pressure is an increase of 63% in power. For arguments sake, if your engine makes 250 horsepower, it will make, approximately, 157 more horsepower, totaling about 407 horsepower. 24# injectors will max out at about 350 horsepower at 100% duty cycle. You will need more injector to cover yourself for that amount of boost, and considering you are somewhat modded, you may even be making more than 250 horsepower to start off with. If you're not planning any more than 9-psi, then get your hands on 42# injectors... and have someone burn you a proper chip for your MAF setup. MAF Translators can be made to work as well. Plenty of choices out there.
- Rob
Thanks for the reply, I did have it dynoed a few years back before the stall and RRs. It put down 227whp so pretty stock. It sounds like you are saying to skip the FMU and just do properly sized injectors and a custom PROM? I was hoping to maybe start with a FMU of some sort to get it derivable before I upgrade injectors and get a custom tune.
Last edited by Missed Exits; Sep 1, 2020 at 10:20 PM.
The ECM will correct, but it will only correct up to a certain point. Remember that FMU's do not have the capability to pull timing when you start to see boost pressure, and you will want to pull at least 1* of timing for every 1-psi that is prevalent. Waiting for a stock ECM to pull timing is very different in boosted conditions, as once you see knock at over 30* timing under boost pressure, you're finished. You can get away with that naturally aspirated, as eight counts is usually the limit before it becomes very serious. You have a nice car there, don't take chances with it, do it right the first time.
Injectors and fuel/spark control is a must with boosted applications, first and foremost.
If you want to keep it a maf car you will need a bigger maf and a translator, something like what blowerworks sells. Never used any of them but seem like they work well.
i rather have a map based system which would require a ecm change and one of the codes for boost like $8D boosted or $59. Or go EBL from dynamic efi
simpler would be FMU which procharger should sell. I would do like 30 lb injectors or so with the fmu to make sure you got enough fuel. Then use the tuning of the chip to adjust some pe mode parameters to dial in the fuel curve since blowers build boost linear in rpm.
If you want to keep it a maf car you will need a bigger maf and a translator, something like what blowerworks sells. Never used any of them but seem like they work well.
i rather have a map based system which would require a ecm change and one of the codes for boost like $8D boosted or $59. Or go EBL from dynamic efi
simpler would be FMU which procharger should sell. I would do like 30 lb injectors or so with the fmu to make sure you got enough fuel. Then use the tuning of the chip to adjust some pe mode parameters to dial in the fuel curve since blowers build boost linear in rpm.
Bingo.
i had a 305 TPI with a D1SC and 3 core intercooler. using the 7730 ecm with map sensor and the procharger FMU (procharger also included an external inline boost fuel pump) i had 30# injectors at that time with peak 10#'s boost pressure.
i did not like the 90+ PSI fuel rail pressures so i eliminated the FMU and went with the $59 code self tuned with a wideband and 42# injectors and methanol injection in the end i was making 14#'s car dyno'd 380hp/420 ft/lbs it was a beast but generated heat and was just not good with drive ability
i pulled that all out in favor for a LQ9 6.0 LS with a hot cam and much prefer this setup.
Just to clarify, since this is often mis-understood: the Blowerworks maf solution mentioned above does not involve the use of a maf translator. It is an analog maf with increased sensing range (depending upon choice of meter and housing diameter) along with programming changes to accommodate the increased sensing range, signal input (re-pin to one of the available map inputs) and application specific tuning. Integrated IAT sensor is a bonus.
In summary, its a modern slot-style maf sensor, housing and custom bin tailored for the application offering simple installation and tuning via conventional methods at low cost and is available for 86-89 165 ecm/tpi cars. Its simple, it works.
test car (not mine): 86 C4, 4L80E w-3.73 gear, 383 w-AFR 195s, superram, small cam, P600b, fmic and my old 42 lb. lucas injectors @ 60 psi. The car really has too much gear and not enough injector, but that's another story. IAT (maf air temp) is still a bit borderline approaching 150 °F due to inefficient blower and IC core.
Last edited by tequilaboy; Sep 4, 2020 at 01:40 PM.
The ECM will correct, but it will only correct up to a certain point. Remember that FMU's do not have the capability to pull timing when you start to see boost pressure, and you will want to pull at least 1* of timing for every 1-psi that is prevalent. Waiting for a stock ECM to pull timing is very different in boosted conditions, as once you see knock at over 30* timing under boost pressure, you're finished. You can get away with that naturally aspirated, as eight counts is usually the limit before it becomes very serious. You have a nice car there, don't take chances with it, do it right the first time.
Injectors and fuel/spark control is a must with boosted applications, first and foremost.
- Rob
Procharger doesn't pull timing on the L98 P1SC kit w/ intercooler. The manual says it's not necessary on a stock engine with stock pulleys.
Just to clarify, since this is often mis-understood: the Blowerworks maf solution mentioned above does not involve the use a maf translator. It is an analog maf with increased sensing range (depending upon choice of meter and housing diameter) along with programming changes to accommodate the increased sensing range, signal input (re-pin to one of the available map inputs) and application specific tuning. Integrated IAT sensor is a bonus.
In summary, its a modern slot-style maf sensor, housing and custom bin tailored for the application offering simple installation and tuning via conventional methods at low cost and is available for 86-89 165 ecm/tpi cars.
car (not mine): 86 C4, 4L80E w-3.73 gear, 383 w-AFR 195s, small cam, P600b, fmic and my old 42 lb. lucas injectors @ 60 psi.
I tried running one for a while, but I couldn't get it right. Even moderate variations in throttle didn't result in huge voltage increases from the MAF sensor. I was running the same Ford cartridge style 0-5v MAF.
I was running it as a blow through though, and I'm told that was my problem, along with how much tubing I had before and after the MAF. One day I'll try it again.
I always run a blow through setup with bov upstream of the sensor. Your installation looks good to me, but maybe the bend had some influence on the signal. The maf transfer function is parabolic, so you won't see big voltage changes at low airflow. I will try and dig up a log that includes both voltage and airflow for reference.
88 C4, 4+3 w-3.73, AFR, superram, 503 cam, bd-11a, fmic, 63 lb/hr injectors. I forget which meter was installed for this run, I think it was a 2nd gen HPX with way more range than necessary ~5000 kg/hr, similar to a BA5000 which was used on the previous log.
Note: The integrated IAT signal can be seen in both logs (displayed in °F), see (or click on) signal labelled "maf air temp".
I've added a few markers at idle, ~1V, ~2V, ~3V, and approaching 4V.
Both example logs also feature an extended load range (0-382.5 or 0-0.12 gm/cyl), and load based PE enrichment. They also include IAT timing compensation in order to provide full fuel and spark control in one box that can be optimized for all conditions.
Last edited by tequilaboy; Sep 2, 2020 at 01:08 PM.
Procharger doesn't pull timing on the L98 P1SC kit w/ intercooler. The manual says it's not necessary on a stock engine with stock pulleys.
-- Joe
Well two things, for starters, he is not stock, he is running SLP runners and this is going to affect boost resistance, so 9-psi will be slightly less than advertised, albeit flowing slightly more due to the increase in flow velocity. Second, the early manuals from Procharger will say this because they did not get into OBD1 tuning. Their thinking was keep the engine within its' O2 correction parameter and it will be okay. However, their website adds to this. It clearly embellishes a "properly tuned Intercooled Procharger", so the assumption is that the FMU is not properly tuned, it's just a band aid until it gets tuned. Not to mention, the system will never see less than ambient temperature, and countless people have complained that their IAT's are way too high with the P1SC kits, even with the Intercooler. However, if you trust Procharger with his 20,000 mile L98 because the manual says so that is great, but when the engine detonates without any controlled timing, and it will on hotter days, as well as days when he forgets to run high octane fuel, you won't be replacing his engine anytime soon for him. We're in 2020, so advising someone to use the FMU that comes with a thirty year old OBD1 kit because the manual says it should be okay for non race applications, and for everyday driving, is, well, wrong. Because everyone here knows that he is going to want to get on it, otherwise it defeats the purpose of installing it. But hey, if that is what he wants to do, so be it...
Yeah on the kits that use fmu and no timing changes i would atleast back the distributor off a few degs to be safe. Its a crappy way to do it tho. But the 5-6 psi kits that should be fine. 9 psi plus i’d start with 5-6 deg out and work back in if needed. Thats alot of advance out in the cruise rpm range tho
boost referenced ignition retard box is ideal here. Stronger ignition plus timing control
a simple bin change to allow pe mode spark retard would be easiest if sticking with the maf 165 setup and using fmu
in the end chip tuning should be done to work in the drivability with any mods and injector changes and to fine tune the fmu provided fuel curve.
Well two things, for starters, he is not stock, he is running SLP runners and this is going to affect boost resistance, so 9-psi will be slightly less than advertised, albeit flowing slightly more due to the increase in flow velocity. Second, the early manuals from Procharger will say this because they did not get into OBD1 tuning. Their thinking was keep the engine within its' O2 correction parameter and it will be okay. However, their website adds to this. It clearly embellishes a "properly tuned Intercooled Procharger", so the assumption is that the FMU is not properly tuned, it's just a band aid until it gets tuned. Not to mention, the system will never see less than ambient temperature, and countless people have complained that their IAT's are way too high with the P1SC kits, even with the Intercooler. However, if you trust Procharger with his 20,000 mile L98 because the manual says so that is great, but when the engine detonates without any controlled timing, and it will on hotter days, as well as days when he forgets to run high octane fuel, you won't be replacing his engine anytime soon for him. We're in 2020, so advising someone to use the FMU that comes with a thirty year old OBD1 kit because the manual says it should be okay for non race applications, and for everyday driving, is, well, wrong. Because everyone here knows that he is going to want to get on it, otherwise it defeats the purpose of installing it. But hey, if that is what he wants to do, so be it...
- Rob
Well, Procharger did a heck of a lot of marketing regarding their kits ability to run full timing due to the intercooler. I got my P1SC kit in like 2010 I think and it was a big deal at the time. The P1SC does have a high outlet temperature though, but it's also a very small blower.
But I agree with you, using 20 or 30 year old technology is for the birds, if I were him I'd ditch the factory ECM and go with a modern standalone.
I would agree once you use a holley efi setup you wont wanna use anything else....except i do like how tunerpro 3D graphs look much better and editing them by click and drag was much better than Holley V4. Idk if V5 or whatever has updated this aspect but tunerpro is much nicer in 3D editing lol
but holley does everything else better and more control
I would agree once you use a holley efi setup you wont wanna use anything else....except i do like how tunerpro 3D graphs look much better and editing them by click and drag was much better than Holley V4. Idk if V5 or whatever has updated this aspect but tunerpro is much nicer in 3D editing lol
but holley does everything else better and more control
Wow I didn't expect this much response but I appreciate everyone that took the time to comment.
So it sound like I will need at minimum 42# injectors and some sort of prom tune or modern day EFI solution. What is all necessary to convert to a Holley efi setup and how user friendly is it? Is there any standalone that is pretty much plug and play?
Well, I've been through this. It is a major mission to get this kit running nicely. Took me 2 years on and off.
What can I share? Well here is what I think:
Get Bosch 42lb injectors.
Get a custom Blowerworks MAF- the guys there are fantastic. This will get rid of a need for a FMU- which sucks.
Sort out the PCV system. Procharger say just vent to atmosphere but that wasn't good enough for me. I used a catch can and a one-way boost valve. Someone else posted about this somewhere on thirdgen.org and I copied it.
I wouldn't bump fuel pressure and get it stock and tuned within the custom chip
Don't be disappointed when the kit doesn't pull 9psi- it's down to your setup. I had to go a couple of pulleys smaller
I got a MSD BTM to control retard under boost. I actually don't use it as the tune limits the timing instead.
Get plugs that are a stage cooler than stock
Make sure your ignition system is 100% tight. Plugs, wires, coil, disty. Everything.
Make sure your battery cabling and negative wires are new/replaced. I used to get a drop in voltage when it was warm which resulted in an odd lean - which is not what you want. There is a heavy duty kit you can buy.
For you I will. You just need to tell me how to get the IAT working. I think I still have the wire that the kit came with. I'm also about to fit a TPIS Bigmouth and Accel runners. May need another tune so perhaps combine the two?
So most of the time these sorts of threads just die out without any end results being posted by the OP. I figured I would post an update and my dyno results for everyone to see and give input on (even though they are less than impressive)
So after a couple long weekends I did get everything installed. The "kit" I bought was used and had been adapted to fit a different setup than mine so it took way longer than I would like to admit to play around with the correct spacing and angle for the procharger bracket and procharger itself. Also because I had a large aluminum aftermarket radiator there was basically no space for the fans. It was very frustrating having to pull everything apart every time the belt started to walk or I needed to shim it in a different direction. (Side note: Procharger's installation manual for the TPI kit is way outdated and the pictures are basically worthless. Not impressed)
After I got it all together and tuned a bit so it was drivable I had it on the dyno. the results were a little disappointing to me since Procharger claims 9psi and 130 whp on a stock TPI engine with this kit.
Quick recap on my mods: Stock L98 with SLP tri Y headers and exhaust. SLP runners, stock plenum and lower intake. 1.6rrs and a 2800 stall. (Walbro 255 fuel pump, Bosch 30# injectors, & FMU)
It made 317.5 hp at 4900 rpm and 350.9 ft-lbs of torque at 4600 rpm. AFR held steady between 12.78 and 11.60 up to 5500 rpm. (All this was done on a Dynomite Dyno). It did not sound or feel like there was any belt slip. The tuner didn't want to add more timing because he had a couple knock counts on his scanner. Also Fuel pressure held steady and went up to 75psi on the top end. No cutting out on the ignition system so it seems like this is the best I can hope for on my setup?
I am debating about looking around for an aftermarket lower intake manifold and porting my plenum and runners this winter. Maybe upgrade the throttle body as well. Does anyone have dyno results from a forced induction application showing a measurable result from stepping up the throttle body diameter? Also I believe the SLP tri Ys are 1 5/8 would it be worth going to 1 3/4?
The car feels great when you get on it. no issues at all when you are in the throttle. The only issues I am having is it doesn't like to idle when warmed up. it hunts back and forth and sometimes dies. Also it feels like I have a lean miss on the highway cruising at low rpms. It feels like a slight buck or miss when I am not on the throttle trying to hold speed.
Any ideas for tuning the issues, mods that would help or just general input on the results would be great. Thanks again for all your help and advise. It feels good to join the forced induction world, and boy is it addicting once you get into the boost haha not sure if I will ever be able to go back!
Considering most L98’s are 200-220 whp with those mods, some maybe 230’s, 100-ish whp gain aint too shabby. How much timing?
sometimes factory knock sensors can be too sensitive but only way to tell is sneak up on timing, half deg or maybe 1 deg at a time to watch hp changes. If only gains a few hp with a half or full deg then thats all she got. Back down 1 for safety.
Bigger base should help some, thats usually worth 10-15 on a stock car. Leave throttle body alone no gains there
Considering most L98’s are 200-220 whp with those mods, some maybe 230’s, 100-ish whp gain aint too shabby. How much timing?
sometimes factory knock sensors can be too sensitive but only way to tell is sneak up on timing, half deg or maybe 1 deg at a time to watch hp changes. If only gains a few hp with a half or full deg then thats all she got. Back down 1 for safety.
Bigger base should help some, thats usually worth 10-15 on a stock car. Leave throttle body alone no gains there
rest is drivability tuning
Mine dynoed 227rwhp when I first got it so a 91 whp increase, which like you said is ok. I believe total timing is 28 degrees. I adjusted the minimum air and got the idle mostly settled. Still get a lean miss at cruise or might be the torque converter trying to lock up, hard to tell.
Originally Posted by ZZ42Fast
Hey Missed Exit, thanks for updating us. Pretty good.
Have you done a new chip? What actual PSI?
I'm fitting a TPIS Big Mouth and Accel runners soon along with a 58mm TB. I reckon a bigger TB will help with boost a little.
I had a chip burned for the 30# injectors and some minor tuning adjustments. the guy on the dyno said he saw 7psi. I saw 6psi once but not it mostly seems to be 5psi. I might have some belt slippage now, my main drive belt is way loose and I am at the limit of the tensioner, I also have a pretty bad squeak which I thought was a supercharger tensioner pully but now I am not so sure.
I will be trying to find a bigger aftermarket base, porting the SLP runners all the way through and porting the plenum this winter. hopefully that gives me another 9- 23whp
In 1996. P600B 3 core intercooler 9psi. Stock 60,000 350 TPI. TES headers, dynomax cat back. Drag radials. 3.70 gear. 3860lb off the trailer. 12.60 @112MPH. Fmu, 80psi, stock chip , stock timing. Something is wrong with your car or setup.
Not to start an all out war here, but something doesn't add up. Nine psi is 63% more power, and at 3800 pounds you would need at least 375-RWHP to run 12.60 @ 112mph. That would mean your stock L98 was making 230-RWHP with just an exhaust and factory tune. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you ran those numbers, but the "stock" part has me second guessing lol. Either you forgot you had a cam in that thing being that it was fifteen years ago, or it was a factory freak lol...
Im wondering how you got an iroc to weight 3860 lbs with those mods. Cage? Rear end? Th400?
trying tothink if what heavy stuff you added
Nothing. Fully loaded Iroc with AC, power everything and procharger kit adds about 100 or so lbs. Plus me in it 220lbs at the time. Easy to figure out.
Not to start an all out war here, but something doesn't add up. Nine psi is 63% more power, and at 3800 pounds you would need at least 375-RWHP to run 12.60 @ 112mph. That would mean your stock L98 was making 230-RWHP with just an exhaust and factory tune. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you ran those numbers, but the "stock" part has me second guessing lol. Either you forgot you had a cam in that thing being that it was fifteen years ago, or it was a factory freak lol...
- Rob
Might have been. Car ran 14.2 @ 96 with drag radials 2 years before that with 2.77 gears. With basically nothing but exhaust and tires. Not hard to believe. I even have it on vhs somewhere from way back then. Remember I used the factory chip with factory timing . Not retarded. Round about rwhp is 375hp. Not hard to believe. 9psi. Your talking 1996. Yes that was fast at the time. No I had only what I listed. Well no cat. Took that out. Maybe an ignition box. 3 core system as well not the 2 core. Billet impeller too, as that was an option at the time. Joke what these kits cost now. Paid $3000 grand shipped with every option at the time. Dont want a war. It happened. Why I remember so well was I had one of the first kits on these cars in my area. I remember " tuning" the fmu if you can call it that. Getting the belt to not slip because those kits had that issue because of the crap one solid tensioner and step up ratio in the supercharger made for little belt wrap. The op is making 6 psi and not using the fmu. He tuned it on a dyno. Idk what that entailed. Maybe I was on the ragged edge with timing idk. It was 1996. No dynos in my area at all at the time. It ran well for a few years like this. For those who know from this far back I used to have quite a few conversations with Dorian at procharger about adding a second idler and the car in general. Think they went with 2 idlers on the D1 kits later on. Dorian was a hell of a guy and went on to open House Of Boost but unfortunately died a few years back. Remember at the time vortec had no competition. Procharger was brand new. With bold claims. Car made some good power and 12.6 @ 112mph was nothing to sneeze at in mid 90s especially with a thirdgen.
