When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I'd love to say I'm bored with life and looking for things to do, but that is no the case. In the middle of a frame off restoration on my C3 (can't post about that here, but check Corvette forum for details). My other Corvette is done, finished that last year. So what about the thirdgen?
Well I wanted to sell it, but nobody wants to buy these cars, not for more than $500 anyway. I hated hated hated the whine of the Vortech V1. I considered getting a V3, but after listening to a few they are kinda obnoxious at idle in their own way. So I sold my vortech head unit, and I'm selling the other stuff too. Probably sell the miniram as well.
But then I was thinking, this car probably only makes 450hp naturally aspirated. It's a big cubic inch block with AFR heads, and that's a waste. Heck, the LT1 in my C4 makes 450hp!
Now I could get another Powerdyne BD11A like I used to have on my other C4. 928 makes an impeller for those that supposedly flows 1200cfm like an S-trim, so that (in theory) would be 600 fwhp capable and quiet. They are quite efficient too, so you can run them without intercoolers. Buuuut I've done that, and reliving the past is lame (though I wish I hadn't lost that girls number, man if I could go back to that bar and find it!)
So I've been reading up on different stuff.
I bought this to play with. It uses 1.48" LS3 style injectors, mini GM TPS + IAC. I got it for $300 shipped new. Not sure yet what I'm going to do with it. It's very low profile. I've learned that if you just offer a stupid low amount of money to most of these Chinese ebay sellers they will take it:
Drop air cleaner:
But I've also been toying with the idea of using an M122 from a Mustang GT500. These often sell for between $700-1000:
This would require modifying an existing EFI baseplate, or making a sheet metal intake. Here is an example of one on an LT1 in a 4th gen:
In this example, he integrated the liquid (air to water) intercooler in his baseplate, and as you can see it fits under the stock hood of a 4th gen.
Of course, building a sheet metal intake for an LT1 is easy, much like an LS they are dry intakes - no coolant passages or distributor to deal with. On a SBC it would probably be easier to cut up and re-work a single plane EFI manifold or even a HSR lower.
Another thing if you've noticed, the Caddilac M122 setups are like $500 shipped on ebay, brand new. Now these require about 4 hours with a sawzall and a cutoff wheel to make something useful, and even then it's a bit more work. But some guys have cut them up and turned them into a blower you can actually mount on something. The throttle body is in the back, which may or may not fit the engine packaging (the snout is quite long), but some guys have welded up 180* aluminum to the back of them to mount an LSx throttle body facing forward.
Most modded cars wont sell cuz ppl expect too much money from them. They simply arent worth it even if you have receipts totaling much more. Just the way it is
especially if its not an ls engine, that seems to be what ppl want. I dont blame them, modern tech is nice. Blown factory blocked 400 is already a sketchy deal due to them things having reputation for thin cyl walls and webbing
those factory blowers are fun but seems like more work than its worth and a step backward in performance, even tho i like being different and the idea of it
Most modded cars wont sell cuz ppl expect too much money from them. They simply arent worth it even if you have receipts totaling much more. Just the way it is
especially if its not an ls engine, that seems to be what ppl want. I dont blame them, modern tech is nice. Blown factory blocked 400 is already a sketchy deal due to them things having reputation for thin cyl walls and webbing
those factory blowers are fun but seems like more work than its worth and a step backward in performance, even tho i like being different and the idea of it
True on all points. The Weiand 177 might be the best way to go, but I do kind like the fabrication/educational part of making a GT500 M122 fit a SBC. I've roughed the dimensions and I think it's doable with the right intake.
I could also mill my AFR210 heads and change the cam and make it a sick n/a combo but that's boring haha.
i have seen those ford factory blowers around for pretty cheap. made me think about using one somehow too.
have you considered going e85 also? you can get some suprising gains- especially on a blower car.
i have seen those ford factory blowers around for pretty cheap. made me think about using one somehow too.
have you considered going e85 also? you can get some suprising gains- especially on a blower car.
No e-85 anywhere around me, unfortunately.
I'm really just bored with the car and I'm not sure what I want to do. I have a lot of money tied up in it - suspension, engine, interior, paint, etc. It's not worth even half of what I put into it.
I drive it to car shows but I just got sick of listening to the V1, which oddly enough was made worse by the vented BOV (so it's gear noise but now loud air noise). I thought about putting the 412 in my C3, and sticking an LT1 in the formula but theres a tremendous amount of work involved in that since the car is already running and driving.
I have a car trailer and I do like to go to the track but I have two problems.
1) No cage/bar, and my track is very strict which means I can't run faster than 11.49, which is fairly slow these days. Almost a waste to go that slow on a 412" AFR head motor, but it is what it is.
2) I don't want to make it a full race car, cage, etc because then I'll have 30k tied up in something I won't want to drive around town (because of comfort, noise, etc).
I'm getting old. I think I just want to cruise and get ice cream. I guess that's why I have two corvettes and a harley.
I'm getting old. I think I just want to cruise and get ice cream. I guess that's why I have two corvettes and a harley.
-- Joe
Joe, I wouldn't waste the time fabricating for the roots. You were always so adamant about the Banks twin turbo setups in the past, with exhaust manifolds, no headers. Just weld yourself some proper exhaust manifolds with smallish turbo's. Sell the Vortech to Diggler. If and when you decide to sell the Formula, the twin turbo's will sell it a hell of a lot faster than the Vortech ever would, that's for sure. Plus, twins with full exhaust would be much much more quieter...
I am following along, I am curious to see what you decide.. if you do decide to do anything. Some of the forced induction talk is above my head, but I am willing to learn and see the pros/cons of all of this.
For running faster than an 11.49 you wouldn't need a full race car cage though. You simply need a roll bar. 5-point. Could even be a 4 point roll bar with a removable "swing-out" bar on the drivers side and the pass side. That's my plan. No full blown cage, but a street roll bar setup. main hoop, two diagonal bars to the trunk, and then two removable swingouts for anytime I am not actually at a racetrack. That can carry you to run as fast as 10.0 . QwkTrip did a nice job on his and its totally a street car
Joe, I wouldn't waste the time fabricating for the roots. You were always so adamant about the Banks twin turbo setups in the past, with exhaust manifolds, no headers. Just weld yourself some proper exhaust manifolds with smallish turbo's. Sell the Vortech to Diggler. If and when you decide to sell the Formula, the twin turbo's will sell it a hell of a lot faster than the Vortech ever would, that's for sure. Plus, twins with full exhaust would be much much more quieter...
- Rob
So there's some possibility that I could cut up some cast iron Corvette manifolds (The ram style ones) but then you still have the issue of needing to have clocked turbos so it's symmetrical. The down pipe on the driver side kind of sucks.
The twin turbo c4 setup is really nice, as far as fit and finish with the twin intercoolers and all that but it's relatively small turbos in low horsepower.
I've been in a lot of turbo cars now, this past year, and truthfully they all seem to have the same problem I feared all along. They just have no sack off the light and are lazy but make tons of power up top (except for power strokes, for some reason those trucks have tons of power off the line!).
In regards to the roll bar, you still have to have the part on the floor that connects the swing out bar plus even having the bar in the car rubs up against me and it's obnoxious. I sat in a friend's 3rd gen with a bar and I was like I couldn't tolerate this on the street.
And a blower hanging off on a big bracket is any different? Lol
Depends on who set up it is and what it looks like. The setup I had was more DIY race oriented. I've seen some of these more modern setups with flat black superchargers and polished brackets and the fit and finish is really nice.
a lot of guys make huge horsepower with those single turbos that they run in the battery tray, I've met and had lots of conversations with people over the summer, heck my car club now has 5,400 members. We've been renting out huge facilities for our car meets. I've seen a lot of really nice high dollar builds and I've seen a lot of JYD's. I like the idea of the root style blower, especially the Cobra style, assuming it fits under the hood. I hate seeing blowers go through the hood.
Lol. Honestly yeah.. it's just never been my thing, and I grew up with that stuff.
I do really like centrifugal blowers and honestly I loved my powerdyne set up on my c4. I never should have sold that car (it's been 12 years I know get over it). if another power done fell into my lap for short money I would probably send it out to 928 for all the updates.. you can make 600 flywheel horsepower with them and they're whisper quiet!
And I know 600 horsepower is not a big deal to some of you guys, but I don't need 1200 horsepower to get ice cream.
Did you ever swap out to a different intercooler? I remember you sayin that it cooled good, but maybe didnt flow rhe best. Like maybe theres more on the table than you realize? How bout bigger blower, and a single plane? Wasnt nuffnuf knockin on 800 with waay smaller cubes?
or hell, part it out. Should get you enough $$ to buy a 2 pairs of white new balances when your rockin the vettes.
Did you ever swap out to a different intercooler? I remember you sayin that it cooled good, but maybe didnt flow rhe best. Like maybe theres more on the table than you realize? How bout bigger blower, and a single plane? Wasnt nuffnuf knockin on 800 with waay smaller cubes?
or hell, part it out. Should get you enough $$ to buy a 2 pairs of white new balances when your rockin the vettes.
No I didn't. I have a liquid IC but I just wanna do something different with the car.
my friends c5 with the 427 and twins had immediate boost. think it had a pair of 52 - 58mm turbskis on it, pretty small. massive early torque and easily made over 900whp with 16# on some slipping 19" goodyears. had a bolt on borla exhaust still and sounded like a typical mild cam c5. that car was the closest thing to an actual 8 second daily driver type car i have ever seen and changed how i thought about modding my own stuff moving foward. downside- hard to work on. lol
my friends c5 with the 427 and twins had immediate boost. think it had a pair of 52 - 58mm turbskis on it, pretty small. massive early torque and easily made over 900whp with 16# on some slipping 19" goodyears. had a bolt on borla exhaust still and sounded like a typical mild cam c5. that car was the closest thing to an actual 8 second daily driver type car i have ever seen and changed how i thought about modding my own stuff moving foward. downside- hard to work on. lol
I was talking to a buddy of mine about this today and he reminded me of something, he said "Joe you used eagle I-beam rods for that didn't you? Do you want them to exit the block?" Lol.
I think that I just want to get the car to the point where it's like 550- 600 horse, reliable with no lag. It made tons of power with the t-trim. I took it out the other day naturally aspirated and it's meh. My manual trans c4 actually seems faster naturally aspirated.
It's funny because right before I decided to sell you the V1, I listen to someone's V3 thinking I was going to go to that and I'm like this isn't much quieter. Like this sucks haha.
the worst automotive purchase i think ive made is a civic hybrid. bought it used, drove it about 2 years and had to put a battery in it to the tune of $2800 or so. i was actually prepared for that, but was expecting the new battery to last 8 years like the original. well it only lasted 4. at that point the car was worth absolutely nothing and i surely wasnt going to pay to put another battery in it, so we kept limping it along on engine only with its 1.3 liter engine to try and get some value out of it. nearly dangerous pulling out in traffic, and if you want to drive into the mountains get ready for a 35mph 2nd gear pull with your foot on the floor. did it save us money over a conventional car? i have no idea. probably not, as $2800 will buy a huge amount of gas. the turbo pt cruiser it replaced was much much much more fun and i hauled a full corner desk in that thing.
when cars go full electric, they are disposable at that point. when the battery goes bad, nobody is going to pay $10k? to fix an 8-10 year old car.
I spent some time in the shop last night doing some measuring. I came to a few conclusions:
1) The Ford M122 works well on the LT1 because there is no thermostat area in the front of the intake, so dimensionally the pulley lands up where the factory pulleys are when the body is centered over the intake. The down side is, it uses a 10 rib pulley. It would be better to use a Caddilac nose which is longer and run a second belt. On the SBC you still have the problem of the water neck, so to overcome it you have to raise the blower quite high up. So for my SBC, I'm going to pass on that.
2) The E-force is a really nice setup, although a little expensive. Confused1 sent me a bunch of pictures of his setup and relayed some measurements to me. Unfortunately, even with my low profile throttle body and an expensive drop air cleaner it won't fit under my 2.5" cowl hood.
One thing I did decide on was selling the miniram setup. I've never been a huge fan of the MR. I picked up a RPM Air gap to work with the 4bbl throttle body. Going to run four 80lb injectors, and re-tune the car n/a.
I'm leaning towards maybe running a BD11A with a 928 motor sports impeller. They are very very quiet. I think I can make a bracket setup to use the factory 6 rib belt, run the blower on the passenger head with enough room (curved discharge) to run a small liquid IC between the blower discharge and 'carb hat'. I should have PLENTY of room to then run a cold air intake from the blower to the passenger fender.
I'm hoping for a clean, quiet, setup to make me like the car again. Then maybe re-do my exhaust. I'm running a magnaflow resonator right now and a hooker aerochamber. It sounds OK, but I'm thinking of dual 2.5" with an x-pipe and some chambered mufflers. Since I have stainless long tubes and 2.5" into a 3" merge I think it would work better, sound better. maybe.
.... yes, a lot of SBC guys are going that route around here. The injector bung issue was always a problem with the Weiand 142/144 using fuel injection, but with the advent of the Holley Sniper, SBC guys are again revisiting the roots blower as a power adder option w/low profile air cleaner. I do know that they clear the stock G-Body hoods, but the F-Body will be close if someone were to want that. I'd like to see that if you can pull it off, we'd be able to check that off of the "to do" list because that has been up in the for quite some time. But then again, if you change your mind w/the twin turbo concept, they do in fact make excellent manifolds as a starting point as a set if need be.
.... yes, a lot of SBC guys are going that route around here. The injector bung issue was always a problem with the Weiand 142/144 using fuel injection, but with the advent of the Holley Sniper, SBC guys are again revisiting the roots blower as a power adder option w/low profile air cleaner. I do know that they clear the stock G-Body hoods, but the F-Body will be close if someone were to want that. I'd like to see that if you can pull it off, we'd be able to check that off of the "to do" list because that has been up in the for quite some time. But then again, if you change your mind w/the twin turbo concept, they do in fact make excellent manifolds as a starting point as a set if need be.
- Rob
If I was going to do a turbo setup again, I'd probably do cast iron "Ram horn" manifolds and weld T3 flanges to them, and run TO4E turbos with built in waste gates, and hanging out over the valve cover. The problem would be intercooler, there just isn't enough room without 9 miles of pipe.
Are you familiar with the Callaway C4 turbo setups? They are probably the cleanest I've seen, but as you know the C4 has an absurd amount of room beside the oil pan on each side to mount a small turbo. You could never pull this off on a thirdgen engine bay:
Although, I admit I don't know how much "cooling" those air/air intercoolers are doing over the valve cover lol.
Most of the thirdgen twin turbo setups I've seen run the turbos way up front, which makes the accessory drive difficult. And again, miles of IC pipe. The camaro guys have a different hood line so you can run a 4" oval up over the radiator into the throttle body. Firebird can't do that.
Then there is the oil lines, drain lines, etc.. I'm trying to get away from that.
I'd love to say I'm bored with life and looking for things to do...
Joe, the wife and I were cleaning out the basement for the new year, and I came across this twenty nine year old magazine and immediately thought about you lol. A Ryan Falconer V12 sounds just about right when it comes to looking for things to do...
Lemme know if you wanna read the article before I toss it out, I'll scan it...
True on all points. The Weiand 177 might be the best way to go, but I do kind like the fabrication/educational part of making a GT500 M122 fit a SBC. I've roughed the dimensions and I think it's doable with the right intake.
I could also mill my AFR210 heads and change the cam and make it a sick n/a combo but that's boring haha.
-- Joe
The Weiand 177 would absolutely choke as 400+ inch engine with AFR 210s.
Turbocharger technology has gotten so good today... that the only thing that is comparable, would be very healthy Twin-Screw Super-Chargers.
Roots units (even a TVS/ 4-Lobe design) do not compare... and the centrifugal super-chargers do not compare either.
I'm kind in a holding pattern right now. I've been working on one of my houses and have not done much in the garage, and I still need to finish assembling the frame on my C3 build.
If I don't sell the Firebird, I'll probably spend some time this spring trying something else. I do like the banks turbo manifolds but for $1800 it's just stupid expensive. I still don't believe with all the cast turbo manifolds on ebay for next to nothing, nobody makes them for SBC other than banks.
The m122 won't fit under my cowl hood so that's gonna be a no-go. I wonder if a couple of t4/t3 hybrids would work ok..
Joe, the wife and I were cleaning out the basement for the new year, and I came across this twenty nine year old magazine and immediately thought about you lol. A Ryan Falconer V12 sounds just about right when it comes to looking for things to do...
Lemme know if you wanna read the article before I toss it out, I'll scan it...
- Rob
Lol.. I wonder how much power my 412 makes naturally aspirated.
Part of me is hoping the guy interested in the car buys it (as a roller) so I can put the 412 in my C3. But if I do keep the car I'll probably do something to make it interesting.
I'm kind in a holding pattern right now. I've been working on one of my houses and have not done much in the garage, and I still need to finish assembling the frame on my C3 build.
If I don't sell the Firebird, I'll probably spend some time this spring trying something else. I do like the banks turbo manifolds but for $1800 it's just stupid expensive. I still don't believe with all the cast turbo manifolds on ebay for next to nothing, nobody makes them for SBC other than banks.
The m122 won't fit under my cowl hood so that's gonna be a no-go. I wonder if a couple of t4/t3 hybrids would work ok..
-- Joe
Most of the cars that are built in my shop now are turbo cars... If you are looking for anything turbo related, please ask (Note: my engine packages start at 1,000HP and do not have a ton of knowledge for lower power builds).
Here is a link to some inexpensive (but very good for the price) turbo headers: LINK
I can find you something different, if you do not like these headers.
T3-T4 hybrids are going to be too small for the amount of air that your engine can move.
You are going to want turbos in the low 60mm compressor size.
If you are only familiar with Garrett sizes... try looking for a T66 turbo.
Most of the cars that are built in my shop now are turbo cars... If you are looking for anything turbo related, please ask (Note: my engine packages start at 1,000HP and do not have a ton of knowledge for lower power builds).
Here is a link to some inexpensive (but very good for the price) turbo headers: LINK
I can find you something different, if you do not like these headers.
T3-T4 hybrids are going to be too small for the amount of air that your engine can move.
You are going to want turbos in the low 60mm compressor size.
If you are only familiar with Garrett sizes... try looking for a T66 turbo.
The problem with the tubular ones is they always take up soo much room in the engine bay, and seem to fry anything around them.
Do you have any photos of those flowtech headers used on a thirdgen? I couldn't find any. I did see those hit the market a while back and thought they were not bad for the money, being stainless and all.
The problem with the tubular ones is they always take up soo much room in the engine bay, and seem to fry anything around them.
Do you have any photos of those flowtech headers used on a thirdgen? I couldn't find any. I did see those hit the market a while back and thought they were not bad for the money, being stainless and all.
-- Joe
I do not have any, I am sorry.
I have not been particularly fond of most of the pre-made tubular headers for turbo-chargers either.
Most of them have thin-wall tubing that would be fine for a normally-aspirated engine...
But not with a turbo-charger; too much heat escapes the header!
I have been building my own tubular headers in-house, when a customers budget will allow...
I use thick 0.120" wall stainless tubing to make the headers.
It much better keeps the heat in the header, which makes the turbo-chargers more efficient!
the banks manifolds require on center turbine housings which can somewhat limit turbo options. if you are looking for a 100k mile setup, that would be the way to go. lots of heat under hood though as with any other turbo setup.
I have not been particularly fond of most of the pre-made tubular headers for turbo-chargers either.
Most of them have thin-wall tubing that would be fine for a normally-aspirated engine...
But not with a turbo-charger; too much heat escapes the header!
I have been building my own tubular headers in-house, when a customers budget will allow...
I use thick 0.120" wall stainless tubing to make the headers.
It much better keeps the heat in the header, which makes the turbo-chargers more efficient!
I think if I build another turbo setup, I'll probably do it with some sort of cast manifolds. My first turbo setup used stainless "BBS style" headers, and they just cooked the engine bay.
The second setup I made with some cast fbody lt1 manifolds, and the heat was significantly reduced but the front crossover was terrible.
I wonder if using a set of ram-horn style manfilds and welding flanges to them wouldn't be a good combo.
My preference would be for the waste gates to be internal or at least part of the flange. The plumbing of an external wastegate into the down pipes is messy on a tight engine bay.
Lastly, with eagle I-beam rods and a 2 bolt main 400 block, I get nervous with big power levels on this long block. The T-trim I had was probably 800+hp capable and was probably too much. 600-650hp is about as far as I want to push this thing.
I'm thinking it's probably somewhere around 430-450hp naturally aspirated.
I think if I build another turbo setup, I'll probably do it with some sort of cast manifolds. My first turbo setup used stainless "BBS style" headers, and they just cooked the engine bay.
The second setup I made with some cast fbody lt1 manifolds, and the heat was significantly reduced but the front crossover was terrible.
I wonder if using a set of ram-horn style manfilds and welding flanges to them wouldn't be a good combo.
My preference would be for the waste gates to be internal or at least part of the flange. The plumbing of an external wastegate into the down pipes is messy on a tight engine bay.
Lastly, with eagle I-beam rods and a 2 bolt main 400 block, I get nervous with big power levels on this long block. The T-trim I had was probably 800+hp capable and was probably too much. 600-650hp is about as far as I want to push this thing.
I'm thinking it's probably somewhere around 430-450hp naturally aspirated.
-- Joe
I hear ya.
Factory (GM) 2-bolt 400 cylinder blocks are actually stronger in the main-webbing than Factory 4-bolt 400 cylinder blocks.
When I come across a 2-bolt 400, I usually will have splayed 4-bolt caps installed; which would be the strongest factory 400 possible.
I have done a fair bit of dynomometer comparison of the two different blocks, and see the same results time and time again.
-a camshaft and valve spring upgrade
-an intake manifold upgrade
Will get you 450 HP for very little money... porting the heads will bring the power up near 500.
Yeah but I already have this engine. It's already set up for boost, lower compression, AFR210 heads. I had the T-trim on it and it made power but the whine just got to me. I want quiet haha.
I have a LT1 I started building for my C3 project but I stopped because the Firebird is up in the area. A forum member reached out about buying it as a roller, so I'm waiting to see if that happens. If I sell the car, the 412 is going in the C3. If I don't, I can either turbo charge the 412 OR I can put it in the C3 naturally aspirated and stick the LT1 in the thirdgen, but the LT1 would probably be too high compression for a turbo build unless I found some large chamber LT1 heads.
I was looking at this thread from about 10 years ago, and saw these manifolds a guy found on ebay. Have any of you guys ever seen these and know what application they came from? They appear to have a 3 bolt outlet on the top and bottom.
I bought one of those Martin turbo manifolds like six or seven years ago I think I posted some pictures on here, but it requires an on-center turbo to clear the valve cover. In hindsight I probably should have just bought a turbo for it at the time but I ended up reselling it.
Yeah I was thinking like heat rise or something I'm not sure but it definitely is an outlet on the top and the bottom and they appear to be some sort of factory GM manifold and it looks kind of like a 265Ci ram horn for like an early Corvette but the Corvettes definitely didn't have a top outlet.
I'm going back with someone right now that has interest in buying the car as a roller, so if that goes through I'm going to put this motor in my c3.
And then you'll probably see me start a thread about putting a twin turbo in my c4 haha. maybe I'm a fool but there's something I really like about the Callaway twin turbo style setup as I mentioned previously with the intercoolers above the valve covers.
12-08-2020, 01:13 PM
