Hi All,

New to this site. I'm searching for 80's - 90's road race car to use as a track day machine. I'm pretty much a chevy guy and currently have 70 Camaro ProTouring car. But there is a general lack of old SCCA or NASA Chevy cars on the market. So I'm seriously looking at some Fox Body Mustang race cars. But as I've looked into the world of SCCA sedan or NASA American Iron racing you almost never see any 3rd gen cars running up front. Mustangs seem to run circles around them. Checkout NASA American Iron AI racing on YouTube. There seem to be as many suspension upgrades available for camaro's as mustangs.

So I'm asking all you 3rd gen experts what's going on with this. I have my thoughts but will hold them for now.

Mike

 

They're competitive in they're own classes especially when other cars in the same class are from the same era. They're out perform cars from the 60's and 70's and don't perform as well as cars from the 2000's. You can't compare a mustang running circles around a third gen unless you know they're in the same class. A third gen with a 305 is nothing like a mustang with a 5.0L. You could use a third gen with a 4 cylinder or V6 and move to a different class.

If you want to race to be super competitive then you should be driving something a lot newer or spend a lot of money to make the third gen better while moving up in the classes doing so.

 

It's all about money and talent/experience. If you don't want to sink a ton of cash into the car I would lean towards a decent fourth gen with an LS or a V6 and swap in a truck 5.3. The fourth gens are plentiful at parts yards these days while thirdgens are becoming scarce and increasing in value. Road racing at some point will probably involve body damage and with wrecking yards having lots of them in stock is a big plus. Aftermarket new and used parts for fourthgens are plentiful.

 

Have you considered a 3rd gen based on a tube chassis from the 80s or 90s spec SCCA GT-1 or Trans AM series?
If its a track only car a dedicated race car is going to be safer, faster and easier to service.
Why race a street car you can never get it to the specs of an old Trans AM car.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/orga...-race-car.html

 

3rd gen and 4th gen slick race cars are out there for a bargain now.

 

92 scca champion was the hot wheels 3rd gen.

 

This is a key question. Will this be a street car that you sometimes take to the track or a dedicated track car that never sees the street?

It would also be important to know which class you want to run the car in. Local HPDE groups are a lot more forgiving about modification levels than SCCA classing rules.

You can have a lot of fun running a thirdgen on the track. We do it multiple times a year. As well as autocrossing the snot ouf of the car. But we also street drive it. The answers to how you intend to use the car and how you intend to race it will determine which direction you need to look for a car.

 

Are those race cars even actual 3rd gen cars or is it just a tube chassis with a body kit that happens to resemble a Camaro?

 

Trans Am/IMSA GTO rules in 88 required only a stock metal roof and stock tail lights.

http://alex62.typepad.com/imsablog/2...e_big_ste.html
c & p
The 1987 GTO Championship was a major step towards costs escalation. Cars were no longer production GT derivatives, they had become true race cars, with full featured tubeframe chassis. The GTO category had become the battleground for the manufacturers and the fiercest one for cars with fenders. Sandwiched between GTP cars and GTUs, it was the home of the big bangers. Cars ranged from 3,0 to 6,0 Liter displacement. At first sight, cars looked similar to their showroom counterparts, in order to keep the manufacturers involved, which was of course one of the key point.

Jack Baldwin's Peerless Chevrolet Camaro.
These 3rd gen race bodies would make a nice pro touring ride.

 

So those race cars have nothing to do with the OP's question because they aren't thirdgen.

 

Missed this one - it's now back in Florida where it sat on poles, set track records and won races back in the day.

1 of 4 1LE TA's built by Pontiac in 1990, aluminum hood car.

 

Q/T your loss, restricting yourself to production based road racing cars blinds you to the most successful 3rd gens in Trans AM or IMSA GTO professional road racing history.

Skip ahead to 3:30, IMSA GTO/Trans AM historic racing.

 

I'm still trying to figure out if the OP meant 3rd gen or race car.

 

Since I started this post I thought it time to comment. My original post was directed towards production based cars turned into racers, running SCCA, NASA, etc. because these cars tend to be priced right to use as a track car. I cannot afford a tube chassis GTO car or the like. I only intend to run a few events a year.

Why I mentioned Mustangs vs Camaro is there tends to be many more Mustangs that come up for sale. As far as the performance aspect of each, I got this from watching videos of NASA American Extreme races and noticed that there did not seem to be as many camaros as mustangs and the mustangs were out running the camaros. In the SCCA production classes one can see more 3rd gen camaros and they seem a little more competitive. But the rules are pretty tight about engines, weight, etc to keep the racing tight.

I am currently pursuing a 3rd gen camaro that just completed competition this year in SCCA Sedan racing and also a 90's mustang built up to SCCA standards to be a track car. Prices are about the same for each car. These older race cars make good track cars because of the safety equipment already built into them. However they are pretty under powered to run track events with new vettes and mustangs. Of course a quick engine change to a larger small block could help this along. A 3rd gen racer with a 305 or 310 ci engine is going to be pretty slow with todays newer cars. Just my 2 cents worth.

Thanks, Mike

 

Yep, looks like a nice car. These old cars make for fun track cars.

 

No, I'm just a better listener and realized what was the topic matter.

 

Happy hunting for the right Camaro.
When you said race car I did not think production car.
By all means if you are going to compete in a certain class get the car that the rules favor.

SCCA Race prepped C5 Vettes run great on the track too.

Cruise this site for interesting track cars.
https://www.racingjunk.com/category/Road-Racing-Cars/4

 

[QUOTE=QwkTrip;6191115]No, I'm just a better listener and realized what was the topic matter. [/QUOTE

true thank you for enlightening me, you and the OP think a like.

Buying an old track car is a leap of faith.
Happy race car hunting Michics.

 

My car is still a "production" car but will never be street legal again. If I was ever going to do it again, I'd start off with a tube chassis. It's a lot easier and cheaper in the long run.

When you look at all the professional "race cars" now, they're all tube chassis. What body skin is put over the framework just becomes personal choice since under the sheetmetal, they're all basically the same.

Like so many other models, there comes a point when hacking up a car isn't an option any more. You're not going to find a street legal, factory original 69 Camaro any more to convert into a race car. It's worth much more in street legal trim. Our third gens will eventually be the same as more and more go through the crusher.

 

deleted

 

I read a thread you started in 2012 when you got your camaro. You mentioned that Road America was on your bucket list. Have you made it yet ? RA is just 3 hrs from my home and have ran a old corvette there in the past. It's a blast. You cannot run it once and forget it. It pulls you back. It's the pull that is driving me to get another car to run there and other track in the midwest. But we need the safety equipment when running RA. Can get in trouble pretty quickly with the speeds one can run. I was there many years ago for the vintage festival when the Can Am cars where the marqee for the weekend. Those things are awesome at RA. There was several Shadow cars there and one of turned over 200mph on the front straight.

Have fun.

 

Merry Christmas all.
Those are interesting thoughts and reflect my experiences as well.

Imho a used Nascar is a great start for a fun track day car.
Affordable, very safe with a strong cage with out flex, all sphericals so no rubber suspension deflection issues and easy to work on.
Tube chassis race cars are made to quickly come apart for great access to all systems.
Make an engine that runs cool all day on cheap 91 octane and buy good used slicks for cheap.
Video of a friend's car in Salt Lake that did exactly that...

Now with respect to your second point we both know specs do vary between classes and tube chassis construction.

Basically Nascar race cars are on 10 inch rims, weigh 600lbs more and lack the suspension of the lighter Trans Am cars with 13/14 wide rims.
A Trans Am driver might say the Nascars are fast but they slow down too soon.
They have to, they weigh more and have less tire.
Warning the wide Trans Am slicks new are near $2500 a set.

Your last thought hit home with me...

I built a dual purpose road race/street legal car from a production car.
It was a fun learning experience.
It was expensive and I didn't save any money starting with a street car.
Like your last point the car was a 1969 911 that today would be worth more stock than as it is now track modified.

No regrets I still enjoy the car and it gets some nice compliments when we take it to shows or the track.
Here is my story with a few body and engine swaps along way.
https://www.excellence-mag.com/issue...r#.WkEcmd-nGUk

If I had to start over today I'd look at the TA2 cars.
500hp on bias ply slicks and newer bodies, used they are still a little pricey.
http://gotransam.com/transam101/TA2-Class/59344

 

Only on my simulator.

RA and COTA are still on my wish list.
I kinda wanted to take my 4th gen to RA.
It has a Pancho Weaver chassis, 730hp 8200rpm 18 degree V8 and big radial slicks.
If I'm going all the way to RA I'd want to bring my fastest car.

Logistically those long distance events are time consuming and expensive with rain outs possible.
It's a 6 or 7 day commitment for me, 4 day round trip towing and 3 days at the track.

The one day tow to Laguna Seca is more tolerable.
So for now I keep racing and enjoying the 3rd gen on the west coast.
Just entered the 3rd gen into 3 2018 sound free historic race weekends at Laguna Seca.
https://www.hmsausa.com/


I once asked Porsche factory driver Patrick Long of all the tracks in the world he has raced at what turn was in his experience most challenging?
I was expecting maybe Eau Rouge at Spa?
Patrick said the kink at RA was the corner he respected most.

 

Yes, the kink is one of those deals that kind of sneak up on you. It's not really a turn and not really straight. It's really just a jog or kink in the road that if missed at speed wreaks cars big time. Off track spin into a concrete wall. If watching youtube in car videos at RA you can kind of see it.

Thanks for your explanation in your previous post about tube chassis cars and the TA2's. I guess I better take my blinders off and start looking at other possibilities. I really hadn't been paying attention to TA since it died on the vine so to speak back in the late 90's. Looks pretty competitive. I'll have to get to RA in 2018 to see them.

Thanks

 

I'll take a stab at this. The biggest factor in SCCA and NASA is they are amateur racing series. It really is difficult to judge platforms equally due to the large discrepancy in money and talent behind the wheel. Also take into account the series try to level the playing field.

I took last season off, except to run at COTA, but have been running in NASA's Camaro-Mustang Challenge in Texas since 2008.

For NASA's CMC, a few years ago, the Ford guys felt they were at a severe disadvantage, and the rules were changed in their favor, along with other rules such as tire compound and sizes. Some now feel it 'swung' too much Ford way, and needs to come back to GM. The Foxes are allowed to run at 3100lbs. SN95's are 3150lbs. Iron block third gens run 3250 minimun. LS cars run 3300lbs. Fords have more difference from stock track width to their max track width than GM. So much so that they need flares. GM is still wider overall, but it's not much more wider than stock. So the current feel is that you need a Ford to win. A few years ago it was you needed a 4th gen. However, all it takes is a really good driver in a well setup car of the 'inferior' platform to blow that theory out the water. Again, it's amateur racing, so it's hard to get a real baseline on platform performance. But stock for stock, since the Fords need more 'help', that basically says the GM cars are better.

I can't much speak for AIX, but I think AI favor the Fords too. There was a rule change a few years back over ABS in AI that allowed the Fords to use the FR500 abs system which is a race system by Ford. The GM guys really only had the streetcar GM stuff available. Many simply gave up. That said, there are competitive GM racers out there like Mike Patterson in his LS1 4th gen.

AIX as far as I understand it is just cubic dollars. The fields tend to be very spread out.

The big question is, what are you wanting to do with the car? Is it racing or open lapping? My car has a 260hp/310tq max limit, but so does everyone else in my class, so it's all good. I'm running a restrictor on my stock LT1 to get down below 310tq, so my hp suffered. Unrestricted, I'm 274hp. If you're looking to compete in a more open class, or just DE's, it's going to be a big hurdle to overcome 25+ years of technology upgrades.

 

That seems like a really good response, Gman

 

My goal is to just have a track car. I'm way to old for competition anymore. As far as a 3rd gen vs anything else, well they have nice lines and are easy to work on. The 4th gen's are nice looking, but when I look under the hood and see that engine tucked back under the windshield/dash sill I just cringe at how hard that is to work on. And by the way how do you do a engine change in a 4th gen ??
So the point about the competition in the classes is dead on because the engine size is regulated for even racing. Now when you move into open track lapping ( track days ) the whole thing changes. Even though the events are non-competitive and are for fun only there are major differences in cars on the track together. The groups are broken up by experience level only, so you can have a 4 cyl Miata running on the track along side new Z06's, Porsche's , BMW's , etc. So I'm someone who likes American V8 power and want to keep the costs reasonable I started looking for older race cars. I understand they will not be able to run with newer Z06's but do need to be able to get around a track pretty quickly. So a older race car with a 305ci for example would need a engine upgrade in my opinion. By the way I'm in northern Illinois (yes that bankrupt state ) and Road America is the track I like to run. Big , high speed, and challenging. If you run COTA then you know what I mean.

By the way, if your from Houston area then have you run Texas World Speedway ? It that place still open ? I heard they were going to tear it down. I was at TWS back in the 60's when it first opened. It was a beautiful facility back then. I was in the Army and stationed in San Antonio and a bunch of us went there to watch a Can Am race. All the big hitters were there. It was great old time racing.

 

The cheapest was to to get on RA?
Since you might not have a track car ready for spring maybe you can get on RA in a rented seat?
Any Chump or Lemons races on RA in 2018?
It's hoot sharing the track with 90 crazy looking cars and drivers.
With 4 drivers you should get 4 hours of seat time in a weekend.
I paid $500 plus fuel for 4 hours of seat time at Sears Pt in a track prepped Lemons Camaro.
https://www.chumpcar.com/

Fwiw the best way to learn to drive is not in a powerful V8 car but in a momentum car like a Miata.
A thunder roadster is another affordable (sequential trans too) momentum track toy.
AX is a great way to learn too, it can be a little boring when not on track.
3 years of AX helped my car control skills at safe speeds with instruction before I ventured onto a big track.
Here is a link to my favorite book for learning to tame the car, track and most importantly the driver.

 

I like that second video. No barriers anywhere. You miss a corner and you're off in the tumbleweeds.

 

I know what you mean. That's why I'd build another 3rd gen over a 4th gen if I were to ball mine up. Engines on 4th gens come out the bottom. You can do the same for 3rd gen, but I like the option of coming out the top.

I get the point of not wanting a slow car. My wife does lapping days in our JCW Mini Cooper. On the straights, it's only faster than Miata's and S2000's, but gets held up in the corners by mustangs and corvettes. She's still in the lower groups, so driver skill is bigger than the car. Even a 305 tpi would be ok starting out, but as you say, an engine swap later would help keep it fun.

I consider that my 'home' track and one of my favorites that I've run. I corner worked there in college a few times and helped friends run their cars there. I had moved back to Houston by the time I did my first trackday, but still consider it home.

Unfortunately it's closed now. They were planning on shutting it down at the end of 2017, but when Hurricane Harvey hit, it became a storage lot for all the flooded cars. I think by now most have been removed since this picture, but it's still unreal.



https://www.google.com/search?q=harv...=1516200472972

 

If your goal is a track only car, take a look at retired dirt track and circle track cars. A friend of ours picked one up for $5k with a trailer full of spare parts for it 2 years ago and has been flogging it every month at open track days. Extremely easy to reach everything to work on it and all the parts are common off the shelf parts based on the class rules it was built for.

 

OMG that picture is amazing!