I've seen a lot of products that say "50 state smog legal", and I've seen a lot of products that have a C.A.R.B. number with them. What is the difference? I am assuming I can ONLY get the stuff that has a C.A.R.B. EO number, even if it has a "50 state smog legal" with it, right?

For example, the world products S/R and S/R Torquer heads say "50 state emissions legal"- but no C.A.R.B. number- can I get them?

However, the Sportsman IIs do have a C.A.R.B. number, but, the damn runners are too big!

 

a 50 state legal part and a carb EO number can both be legal in california, however, they are different. something with a carb EO number is usually an aftermarket part that the state of california makes legal and has to go through many strict guidlines. Something that is 50 state legal doesnt necessarily have to have a CARB EO number, it has to be a stock replacement part. basically, it cant differ from the origional part.

this probably doenst make much sense how i explained it and im to lazy to type, so come over, and ill explain it to you.

 

that's cool mike. Not a 4.0 student like you, but I got it, lol. So then yes or no, can I run either the S/R or S/R Torquers?.....because they really aren't "stock" at all (bigger valves, different CC.)

 

Those are supposed to be legal to use here with no issues.

 

you can run them no problems.

 

As long as you have an egr hook up either through the head or from exhaust manifold to intake manifold like Corvette, you can get the heads past smog if you build your engine correctly. Don passed smog with Vortec heads which are not smog legal for cars duse lack of provision for egr. He installed a Vette style egr, was careful with the cam and tuneup and passed with "flying colors."

 

The Sportsman heads have the EGR setup like stock, so you dont need the Corvette type EGR. That's only needed if the heads do not have internal "heat risers" or EGR ports.

You just have to drill the hole in the Sportsman heads for the heat riser ports.

 

So wait a minute,

The sportsmans will accept the same EGR I have now, but they will have to be modified? Can any engine shop do this? As far as the S/R and S/R Torquers go, what type of EGR can I run with those? Thanks

 

Anyone who knows how to use a drill and can read the directions can drill the hole in the Sportsman heads to make the EGR work. The port is there but it is not drilled. Also, remember if you are using centerbolt heads, you will have to clearance the perimeter bolt holes in the heads so the centerbolt valve covers will fit snug.

The S/R Torquers should already have the hole there for the EGR.

 

o.k., out of the three options I have from World heads, which do you guy recommend? -It's just gonna be a mild re-build with the Crane 2032 cam. -Hooker headers to spintech muffler, and a stock TPI sitting on top. I like the sportsaman IIs, but isn't the 200cc runner ports too big for me?

 

For the price you pay for the Sportman II, you can get Trick Flow's for the same price. My car passed test only a month ago with flying colors.

 

Do you have a part number for the Trick Flows? Are they aluminum? Smog legal? Shoot, I thought my only options were the World castings.

 

Trick Flow is a Summit brand and you can find them at http://www.summitracing.com/

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...TFS%2D30400005

 

Yeah, those are the exact ones I was just looking at. $1,005.95 is still a lot of money, even for an assemble pair. Don't you think these heads would be a little too much for my combo though?

Second thought: For the sportsman IIs, will the intake ports on the manifold have to be machined to fit the larger runner size (200 cc) of the new heads? When saying the TFs are "too much", these sportsman IIs are pretty much the same size as the TFs, but the TFs cost way more since they are aluminum.

Third thought: As far as the S/R series goes, I like the torquers better because they have the larger valves than the regular S/Rs. However they have a much larger chamber compared to the S/Rs (76cc vs. 67cc). Now to componsate for that larger chamber, and keep my compression reasonable, I can just run a domed piston or something right?

Are there any other brands besides TF and World that I should be aware of? Thanks guys.

 

A zz4 head would probably work out good for you, over the S/R's

 

Where can I find these heads? I looked everywhere and I can only seem to find them on the zz4 crate engine, not sold separately. Are they smog legal heads? Any other options out there? Thanks again for the help guys

 

I bought my Trick Flows 23* from Performance Heads inside the Chevy Hiperformance magazine for $895.00. Their number is 1-800-722-4645. So far they avertised all of their heads cheaper than Summit.

 

i didnt think that the zz4 heads have the provision for the EGR. if most of your guys didnt pick it up yet ::in the most not-condesending tone possible::, i think eric want to stay as close to stock as possible and doesnt want to tap into one of the primaries on the headers to replicate a vette EGR. so far that makes

*vortech
*zz4
*aluminum vette heads
*edelbrock performer RPM (not like many would use these anyway)

out of the question.

i also told him to take a crash course in porting and port the hell out of the l98 heads he already has. (ERIC: if not, sell them to me.)

Also, does anyone know what machine work goes into installing bigger valves and valve springs into the l98 heads and about how much it costs? I believe this was one of the major reasons that eric wasnt going to reuse the heads he has.

 

Thanks mike, but I think I can talk myself. I think I will be going with one of the World heads, or re-building my stockers...I will have to talk to my eninge builder about that. As for the the TF heads, I don't really want to run aluminum and they cost too much.

 

Then sounds like the World heads are just your fit, Just a stock replacement head that's all they are.
The zz4 heads are found on ebay fairly reasonable. There a head that you can work with for more performance with porting etc, but you don't want that style egr system I guess.

 

Just get AFR 195's and be done with it

 

He means Afr 190's for you. But then there is the debate vs. Tf and afr for what you get for the money.

 

Both of those are out of my budget and needs, period. So that leaves World or ZZ4 heads. If the ZZ4 heads are like the vortechs to where you have to run an EGR line from the exhaust to the egr then I can't do that. I am not going to drill into my jet-hot coated headers. Plus, I don't think I would pass visual since that is a smog device modification. And for the S/Rs, I don't understand how even they can call the "stock replacements" when they have bigger valves, better springs, and larger cobustion chambers (I know bigger is not always better.) Sorry if I can't "be done with it", cylinder heads are one of the biggest choices to make when putting together an engine so I would like to put some thought in it. Off to ebay now to look at the ZZ4s. Thanks

 

Nobody is going to tear your car down to look at what size valves you have. The smog computer can tell lobe separation angle to some extent, so you can't get too crazy with your cam. You need vaccuum to work your egr as well. Lift doesn't effect smog tests at all. Efficient combustion hambers will help it run cleaner. Any engine combination used by G.M for your year of car or newer is smog legal. That means that even though the external egr wasn't used on Third Gens, it is legal because it was used on Vettes. You just can't put a truck system in your car, but Vortecs with a Scoggin-Dickey base and the external egr will pass because no one can tell what is under the tpi. You just have to have all of the smog equipment installed and working on the car for visual.

 

Dude! Everyones' car that is on this board passes smog with different combinations. LT4 Hot Cam, ZZ9 Cam, SLP 219 Cam, ZZ4 Cam, Some of the Comp Cams, Trick Flow Heads, AFR's Heads, Corvette Heads, Vortec Truck Heads, World Products S/R's 2.02 valves, Edelbrock Performers Heads, Super Rams, SLP Runners, TPIS Runners, SLP Headers, Edelbrock Headers, TPIS Manifold, Edelbrock Manifold, Scoggin-Dickey Manifold for the Vortec Heads, Accel Manifold and all of the Cat Back Systems. All of this stuff will pass smog and will put your car into the mid to low 13's to mid to high 12's. My advice to you is to buy some parts little by little til you get everything you need when it comes time to build your engine.

 

By the time you spend all that money reworking the World heads to match the T/F's (World heads suck out of the box) you could have the HP and the benefit with less weight. So they don't cost more when you look at the big picture. Get them, they are the way to go.
My $.02

 

There is it said there Irocster, no need to panic about smog. On the other hand if you don't want to mess with your nice jet coated headers that's your choice understandable. I still say for you and considering your probably on a budget pick up some used zz4 heads that are in good condition, and be done, or like they say spend the extra money and decide about the trick flows, those are 2 heads that are good right out of the box. Vortec's on the other hand are a bit tuff b/c you need every thing done, the egr, the base and headers all in one shot. You want to spend money only once for a good head not twice, and that's what you would be doing with s/r's

 

Shoot you guys are probably right. One question with the ZZ4 heads though- they have D shaped exhaust ports right? And I know for certain that the headers need to be smog legal (2055s). But these hookers don't have D shaped exhaust ports, so how can I use the ZZ4 heads?

Aluminum is nice, but man, I would be sooo scared of overheating, because aluminum doesn't take the heat as well as cast huh? So if I went with those TFs, is the Crane 2032 cam too small, or would that be a good combo....maybe if I used 1.6 rockers? I'll go look into the AFRs now. So much for that "quick smog question"...lol

 

I have the ZZ4/L98 heads and I wouldnt recommend them over the Trick Flows. You're better off with the TF heads. As far as overheating, just keep an eye on your coolant level and your temperature gauge. That's simple enough, right? Those of us with aluminum heads dont have any problems with overheating.

Randy used the 2032 cam and Trick Flow heads and made 290 horsepower to the wheels thru an automatic. Sound good to you? That's about 350 at the flywheel.

 

You're putting way to much into this, they don't make headers that don't fit heads. By the time you get AFR's you will have spent nearly $2000 and be flustrated to the max waiting for them. Just get the T/F's and be done with it. You can't do any better and they don't have problems with aluminum.

 

Alright then what headers do I have to use with the TFs? I don't think I'm putting too much into this considering I've never built an engine before and I want to get it right the first time like you guys are all saying.

I am assuming the AFRs are more expensive than the TFs, but I only looked at summit and jegs and I couldn't find them there.

O.K, questions for the TFs then I hope I'll be done asking so many!:

-I can't tell from the pics if they have D exhaust ports or regular?
-Accept center bolt valve covers?
-I know the L98 heads use self aligning rockers or something (I think), so will these heads accept the same style?
-They say they have built in heat risers, so that is for the EGR that I have now correct?
-And the most important question, will my stock TPI manifold bolt right up to these heads?

I know I don't know much about this stuff, and don't worry, I won't be assembling the engine (thank ***), but you guys are right when you say to spend the extra $ and not cut corners. Thanks a lot.

 

Why not get a used set of AFR's? If you want new go new, but I still like the AFR's. However, they are mroe expensive and if you order them new you will be waiting along time. From what I hear they are trying to push their ford line of heads so they are spending more time on those right now...

 

-I can't tell from the pics if they have D exhaust ports or regular?

D shape
-Accept center bolt valve covers?
yes

-I know the L98 heads use self aligning rockers or something (I think), so will these heads accept the same style?
yes

-They say they have built in heat risers, so that is for the EGR that I have now correct?
yes

-And the most important question, will my stock TPI manifold bolt right up to these heads?
yes

I know I don't know much about this stuff, and don't worry, I won't be assembling the engine (thank ***), but you guys are right when you say to spend the extra $ and not cut corners. Thanks a lot.
yes

 

I don't know guys. From what I've read all over these boards and from what I've heard, the only headers that I can legally run are the hooker 2055s which have a standard exhaust shape, not D shaped. I know you guys tell me I can run anything not technically legal on the inside (cam and heads) but the headers can be seen so they have to be legal.

Also, I have been researching these heads on the board and have found people are using them with wild cams and intakes. I'm just running a mild cam and my stock intake. I honestly think these heads will be overkill. I'm sure they would give me a bunch of top end power, but thats not were the TPI runs, especially on the street. Well, convince me otherwise.

 

23* Trick Flows work at all practical rpms. Your cam, intake, and exhaust systems will be the determining factor on where your power is developed as long as you don't go too crazy with valve size. Do your headers have the a.i.r. tubes installed? If so, they will pass the visual on smog. Have a good tune up and your good to go. You want to do a pretest before you have it smogged just to make sure there are no surprises.

 

Trick Flows 23* from Performance Heads inside the Chevy Hiperformance magazine for $895.00. Their number is 1-800-722-4645. So far they avertised all of their heads cheaper than Summit.



Did you ever try to call the number above? This is where I bought my heads from.

 

I don't know guys. From what I've read all over these boards and from what I've heard, the only headers that I can legally run are the hooker 2055s which have a standard exhaust shape, not D shaped.

They all have a standard shape. They don't make headers to fit the ports!

 

ok now I'm really confused guys, thanks for the help. I'm trying to figure out what to run, not going to call up a company and let them tell me how good their heads are. Sorry, I just figured that since some heads like the ZZ4s and TFs had D shaped exhaust outlets, you hade to run a special header with those.

 

I just wish they made the TFs with a smaller runner port.

 

 

I'm sorry I have no clue of what I'm talking about. I'm just trying my best to understand all of this. You know, you guys don't need to feel obligated to help me here, if you want to help me great, I appreciate that, but if you don't want to, that's fine too.

The reason why I said that was because 195 cc runners are kinda large for a stock intake a mild cam. Won't the velocity be kinda down and kill my low end torque?

Also, kind of off topic, but what all can be done to the TPI intake/manifold to make it flow better and properly match it to the heads? If anything can be done, can I do it at home? I have all the air tools and a dremel but what kind of tips to use? If I do this I will have to buy a book to show me how to do it right.

 

There isn't a lot that can be done with the base and runners of stock tpi units. There jus isn't enough "meat" in those parts to open them up. The plenum has a lot of room to open it up. Most guys who want more power from their tpi go with a large base and big runners, then port match the plenum to the runners. 195 cc runners are not too large for the stock tpi. Is there any decent aftermarket head for a 350 Chevy with smaller runners? One advantage of the tpi and 350 Chevy is that you can put on the good heads with stock cam and stock tpi, then upgrade later as time and budget allow. As far as killing low end torque with tpi, I think that is almost impossible. The biggest draw back to tpi is that the runners are so long that it is all done around 4500 rpm on a 350. The Super Ram works because it shortens the runners.
Jerry Who on this board has taken SLP runners and opened them up to where he has made most of the runner into an extension of the plenum, and the runner length is down around 10-12 inches.
They really work, and he is looking into the possibility of modifying the SLP runners for others.

 

Yes, I think you are making this more complicated than it is. There are many header manufacturers out there that are smog legal, but only a few are any good. Your best choices are either the Hooker 2055's like you mentioned, or the SLP's. Either one is good. And if you are having this much trouble picking out your components, I wouldnt even think about trying to port the intake yourself. No offense, but that's something best left up to someone who has done it before.

Let me spell out your combo for you here. Pricing is your responsibility.

Heads: Trick-Flow 23 degree aluminum for 1987+ engines with centerbolt valve covers, 64cc combustion chambers
Cam: Crane Compucam 2032
Rockers: use stock or upgrade to roller tips, either 1.5 or 1.6
Intake: Preferably a TPI intake manifold from Edelbrock or Accel, but the stock one will work.
Runners: Stock or Accel, or SLP, or AS&M
Headers: Hooker 2055's 1 5/8" or SLP 1 3/4" (your choice on size)
Block: Reuse your existing 350 roller block, have it bored .030", use hypereutectic pistons with a compression ratio of about 9.75:1 to 10:1.
Transmission: With this increase in power your stock transmission is going to die soon. Save yourself about $1200 to have it upgraded to handle your new engine.
Computer: Have me create a custom chip for your engine.

Budget: Realistically you're looking at about $4000, including the tranny upgrade.

I hope this helps.

 

That's pretty much what I had planned. Except I thought I didn't need to get a custom chip with that combo. If I do, it's no big deal since I would like to have the fans come on a little earlier anyways with a 180 stat....can you program anything like that? I'm also going to go with new injectors, whether I leave them the stock 22s or go to 24, I don't know yet. Now with the bigger injectors, I will definately need a new chip and AFPR. I'll go look into the runners later. The tranny got rebuilt before I bought it, but I don't know how "beefy" they built it to handle mor hp/tq. With this cam, should I look into upgrading the TC? Thanks for the help.

 

Once you change the cam, you will need a new chip modified. You are better off using a ZZ4 cam from GM. It is cheaper than the Crane Cam.

 

Yes, it is cheaper, but I want something that will easy on the computer. I want it to be a reliable and smooth. I've talked to people who have the crane cam and are very happy with it. Yes, I know it is a good $200 more than the ZZ4, which does suck, but when you consider that the cam is the brain of the engine, that extra $ doesn't mean much.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the ZZ4 is a great cam, just not right for me I think. Later

 

The cam is not the brain, the heads are, the cam supplies the fodder for the heads to work with.

 

ok then

 

No matter how you at it, any modifications done to the engine other than stock you will need to modify the chip. It has to be dialed in to work properly. As far as the ZZ4 cam goes, it has a good smooth idle and it works well with the TFS Heads and will get good gas mileage.

 

Alright, thanks for all the help guys....now I just need to decide. I appreciate it.