Timmys88Z

Ok, so I had planned on buying some lowering srings and be done with it. Then I stumble across this:

*edit (see below)


I had always thought cutting the springs was bad for them and the ghetto way of doing it. Now this guy says it's the better way of doing it???

Someone wanna clear this up?

Timmys88Z

[b]cut WS6 springs
has anyone cut their WS6 springs and not had any problems...

also how many coils from front and how many from back...

pics of car with 16" wheels and cut ws6 springs would be good too...

i am thinkin 1 coil front but not sure on the rear...

btw ... i have 2 sets of springs so if i dont like it i can always go back to stock ...

thanks,
Chris

GK
Administrator

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Bay Area, CA

Yes, cutting springs is ghetto and will **** up your ride. I've been in 3rdgens with friends that have jacked up there cars because they were to cheap to buy springs.

I'm lowered 1.5" front / 1.75" rear and IMO, its the perfect stance. Its not too low or to high. Its just right.



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03-28-2002 07:07 PM


GK
Administrator

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Bay Area, CA


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ThirdGenZ28 92
GK..what springs did you go with???
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Sprint Performance.

They were the only company with a 1.5"/1.75" drop for the convertibles. Everybody else only made a 1" drop for the verts.




BadForm
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: College Park, MD

problem with most pre would lowering springs is that they have inherently bad handling characteristics compared to properly cut springs. Not that most people would notice, since they just drive their cars on the street like normal people. However, progressive rate springs especially make for scary handing at the edge of grip thanks to a lessened predictability and feel for the road.

If it was actually a bad idea to cut springs, then GM wouldn't do it to all of their f-body project cars. The key is to cut them properly. Heat is bad for springs. Also, the springs need to be able to seat properly, something else few people take into consideration..

The general concensus seems to be to cut 1/4 coil at a time and see how it looks. If you wanna do it.

Other spring stuff:

Before I gave Jeremy the Formula, I took the suggestion of a friend with the best riding and handling thirdgen I'd been in, no suprise he cut his springs, but that's not what I did. I removed the spring isolators from the rear and indexed the springs back there. The rear dropped over an inch. Made it sit level at least, without any more harshness to the ride than before.

There's a straight part at the top of the spring. have them pointed toward the front of your car and it will lower the rear. Have them point to the back, and they will raise the rear. Mind you, I'm talking slightly, but they do infact change ride height depending on how the spring is indexed. That's how you adjust left and right ride height and compensate for sagging springs.

Whee.



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03-28-2002 07:27 PM





.
quote:
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yah yah yah, heated isn't AS bad as cut tho
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What do you mean?
Heating the springs makes them lose... well.. their springiness.
They can become brittle as a result, and eventually crack.

Cutting the springs correctly (i.e. without heat and attention to how it seats, etc) results in a higher rate of spring pressure with similar ride characteristics to how they were before they were cut.

How is heating them better? Just curious...



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03-28-2002 07:55 PM



MrDude_1
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Mt Pleasent, SC


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BadForm


What do you mean?
Heating the springs makes them lose... well.. their springiness.
They can become brittle as a result, and eventually crack.

Cutting the springs correctly (i.e. without heat and attention to how it seats, etc) results in a higher rate of spring pressure with similar ride characteristics to how they were before they were cut.

How is heating them better? Just curious...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



heating them is stupid...
cutting them is just ok IMO, depends on the app...

but the worse is when some ******* cuts them with a torch


__________________
hate me not for what i now drive. hate me for who i am.

look at my website!



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03-28-2002 08:01 PM










Silverback
Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Jungle


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BadForm

Before I gave Jeremy the Formula, I took the suggestion of a friend with the best riding and handling thirdgen I'd been in, no suprise he cut his springs, but that's not what I did.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hey, that's me I think!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BadForm
I removed the spring isolators from the rear and indexed the springs back there. The rear dropped over an inch. Made it sit level at least, without any more harshness to the ride than before.

There's a straight part at the top of the spring. have them pointed toward the front of your car and it will lower the rear. Have them point to the back, and they will raise the rear. Mind you, I'm talking slightly, but they do infact change ride height depending on how the spring is indexed. That's how you adjust left and right ride height and compensate for sagging springs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Got it, I was trying to figure out what you were getting at in your email... Yea, I think I was the one that showed you that. For those of you that don't know, you can change the rear ride height a little (about 1/4, maybe a little more) by rotating the spring and aligning the pigtails on the top of the springs differently. With them in the back of the pocket the car will sit the lowest, in the front it will sit the highest (the pocket isn't parallel to the lower spring seat.


__________________
Mark
’87 Formula 350
’83 Crossfire TA
’97 WS6 TA




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03-29-2002 06:09 AM



Silverback
Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Jungle

OK, lets see if I can answer everything here relative to the world according to Mark (in other words, how it actually works )

My problem with aftermarket springs:
- they cost money for something that there isn't much reason to spend money on unless your springs are damaged
- all of the ones that I know of are progressive rate except for the GW ones, which are actually a set o custom wound eibachs.

My problem with progressive rate springs: they're vague on center, they have a soft range and a hard range (some actually gradually change, but most don’t), and 90% of the time you're in the soft range, which is in the middle, around normal ride height. This is not too bad going into a turn hard, you just compress out the lower rate section and use the stiffer section. Where this becomes a problem is in transient maneuvers, like going from a left to right turn (say a slalom, zig zagging through traffic, and S curve...). If you start in a curve, and enter an opposite curve, the car has to go through that soft range to compress the springs enough to get to the high rate part again. It gives the car a feel of floating through the middle and can cause some funky under steer and then over steer depending on your pattern of accelerating or braking, which at the limit will put you off the road (under steer), spinning (over steer) or bouncing off of something hard.

They're good for cars that don't really get driven hard and spend most of their time on the street. Not optimum handling but good looks and some control over bottoming.

Cutting springs with a torch:
- faster
- no reason that it should damage the spring unless you quench the spring right after cutting, let it air cool in still air instead
- if you're **** retentive, you can heat the last coil left after cutting and bend it a little so it tucks in like stock

Cutting springs in general:
- raises spring rate
- lowers ride height
- the reason that it's gotten a bad name is that it usually doesn't do both at the same rate. Really on a 3rd gen in most cases you really barely want to raise the spring rate in the back, while you need to raise it in the front, and you need to lower the back more then the front. This is why I cut my fronts more (raising the spring rate more), and then swapped the thick back spacers to the front to get the ride height up, and lowering the rear ride height. If you just cut them to get the right ride height all around, the front would have a tendency to bottom on bumps and the back would be way to stiff (dangerous over steer and ride like an unloaded pickup truck).

Heating springs and compressing them while hot:
- lowers ride height
- keeps the same spring rate
This is no good for f-bodies. It might work to level the rear with the front if you want to keep the thick spring isolator, but otherwise the car would sit nice and bottom at every bump. Also, if you don't rig an assembly to hold the springs and compress and heat them evenly you'll end up with a progressive rate spring with the soft side softer then the stock rate and less ride height, that's a real problem. The right way is to rig a spring compressor that sandwiches the spring between 2 plates, compress it to the height that you need, and heat it in the oven till it weekens the spring enough that it won't spring back. Then take it out and let the whole assembly air cool and take it apart, you'll have a shorter spring

Is that everything?



Last edited by Silverback on 03-29-2002 at 07:25 AM

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03-29-2002 06:38 AM



Silverback
Member

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Jungle

Oh, I know, I could answer 84TAVeRT’s original question.

I’m assuming that we’re talking about 3rd gen WS6 springs?

What are you hoping to do with the car, street duty, autox, road race, serious crazy *** street duty that requires more of a road race suspension (not that I’d know anything about that )? How much lower do you want the car to be?

My gut reaction is that you won’t like the WS6 springs cut. For most applications you’d just be starting with too stiff a spring. Cut WS6 springs would be interesting to try if you were a serious road course junky and were willing to do some experimenting with trying to find the right sway bars for the combination.

What I believe is the perfect setup for most street cars is to start with a set of TA or Z28 springs that are not the WS6 spring rate, actually, any v8 car springs that are not WS6 or the comparable Iroc springs will work, but if you have a choice I’d go for TA springs since they used a slightly different/more aggressive bias from front to back which accounts for some of the different feel between the Chevy and Pontiac. Cut the back about ½ a coil, pull out the thick top spring isolator and put a couple of lengths of heater hose on the last coil. I’d pull the front and cut them 1 coil, throw out the thin stock front spring isolator’s and install the thick ones from the back. You’ll need to get shorter bump stops (cutting the points off the sock ones will work, but they’re ugly, make sure that whatever you use contacts the frame before the control arm does though, the control arm will contact the frame first on the back side of the control arm opposite from where the front side has the bump stop), since the front should just about touch the control arm bump stop like that. This will lower the front about 2.5” and the back well, enough more for it to sit ‘right.’ (BTW, this is relative to the stock ride height for the early 3rd gen f-bodies, which was an inch or more higher then the later 3rd gens)The biggest thing is to get the springs even and seated correctly (make sure the bottom coil in the front ends between the 2 little holes in the control arms and point the top pigtail on the back spring toward the back of the pocket.

This will give you a front spring rate of 840-900# and a rear around 200-220 (there are 16 different possible factory front springs and something like 7 or 8 rear which is why the range)

If you don’t want to go that far and have it sit more like some Eibach pro’s (really, you won’t be able to tell the difference unless you park a car done each way next to each other, the lower one will just look better. I think the Eibach pro’s on my ’87 look 4x4, but they were on the car when I bought it), I’d go with cutting about ¾ of a coil off the front and about 1-1.5” less then ½ a coil on the back.

If you want to use the WS6 springs, I’d cut them similarly to my first description, but be aware that the front spring rate should be up over 1000#, though I’ve never tried or measured this combination (the WS6 springs start at 548, the other V8 fronts are in the mid 300’s). You’ll have one seriously stiff car.

As a side note, you’ll be happiest with any of these setups with good shocks (with the first setup you’ll be so low that you’ll have potential to bottom on serious bumps without good shocks), and most people like these combinations with smaller sway bars (WS6 are probably way to big, I like a 32 on the front and a 19 in the back, at some point I’m going to try modify a 4th gen WS6/1LE hollow 33mm front to work on my 3rd gen to keep the weight savings of the hollow front WS6 bar.

If you’re just going for looks then keep the WS6 bars and get some Eibach springs or some other crap. You’ll be happiest with this if you want the look but not the handling (remember, with the handling comes some harshness. I would venture to say that although I would argue with anyone that my ’83 is probably one of the best balanced 3rd gens handling wise, it can get harsh on a bad road, OTOH, I think that the ’87 with it’s big WS6 sway bar and softer eibach springs is more of a pain in the *** to drive on a bad road).

Sorry for the book…

2ponchos

very interesting stuff.. could put eibach out of bussiness lol!!!

Timmys88Z

helloooooo........

82camaro

Cutting springs will drop the car and increase the spring weight--pretty simple concept. The usual problem is how much to cut and cuting them the same left and right. And then making sure the front-rear spring weights are optimal. 1/2 coil on the front springs won't result in the same drop and same change in spring rate on the rear. You could end up with a loose or tight car and handle worse than before the drop. Drop coil springs priced pretty good, and they are match so you won't have to cut and recut to get the best handling. Another problem is that for the cut springs idea to have a chance to work, you need to use good fairly new springs--not 10+ year old springs that have weakened over the years. Could have weakened more on the right than the left--how would you know for sure?

irocet305

Does anyone remember project silverstreak that super chevy mag built? They used factory new camaro coils witha half coil taken off. The key item they used in that car was new spring isolator cups, and (2) spring bushings in each coil from a mustang. As bad as it sounds using stang parts on our cars, I guess this set up works really well. No bottoming out, about an 1" lower than stock, and the increased spring rate. This did'nt make the ride harsh, it rode as well if not better than stock. If your going to lower I would give this a try. I've used eibach springs on my car and hated them. Not for the handling or ride, but because they litterally ate my front spoiler and airdam. I drive my car daily seeing as it's the only one I've got, and these springs are'nt liveable with driveways, speedbumps, and pot holes. I'm going to try super chevy's way with global west suspension settings. I'll let y'all know how it turns out. One more thing....NEVER HEAT COIL SPRINGS! They are tempered.... if you heat them you'll bounce like a lowrider 64' chevy going over uneven pavement. This makes the springs very weak, and possible suseptible to breakage. I don't think it would be fun to have one break at 60 MPH. Just my input..... If anyone needs info from that magazine, I have it in my archives. E-mail me with requests

2ponchos

id like that info if u could get it to me.. migitymackdaddy@yahoo.com thanks!!!
i am going to cut mine and see how they work.. i have ws6 springs actually i have two sets of them so if it dont work i can always go back to stock for a bit.

irocet305

Okay, I looked this up and I figured I'd share with everyone else on this thread. My references being Camaro performers (fall 2001), and gmhtp (mar2002). The setup you use is strictly up to you, your budget and the ride quality your looking to achieve.
Now according to the road racer guys in gmhtp of the three they all tried eibach's. They all complained about the same thing....bottoming out when pushed hard or going over uneven pavement. In most cases the went back to factory coils (new of course). The set ups they chose vary, They did'nt elaborate what they changed the front springs to, with the exception of the one guy chosing moog coils because moog can give you all the neccessary info like wire diameter, spring height and spring rate. The chosen set up for one was 706 lbs per inch w/ a half coil cut off. However they did elaborate on the rears. The rear coils were either gm nnm (very stiff), to gm nux coils (softer, RS springs). Also note that these set ups used del lum or aluminum bushings in the control arms, and trailing arms. Probably a little to much for the street, depending on your nvh tolerance.
Now for the Camaro Performers set up they went a different route due to the car being a daily driver. The route they chose is a little easier on your backside and your wallet, but nonetheless still effective for a daily driven street car. The set up they chose is based with mostly of the shelf @ auto zoneparts.
Now I don't know what everyones mileage and wear is so most of these things can probably be left out. They basically rebuilt the whole entire front end with all moog components, used bistien shocks and struts, energy supension bushing and mounts throughout (if you need part#'s they included those too, along with the appox. cost $$). They used hotchkis springs in back with a Mustang front end spacer kit (energy susp p/n 4.6102RX). The spacers thread over the pigtail. They also used homemade spring spacers(?) to level the rear with the front. Up front I assume they used factory coils, or hotchkis. They did'nt elaborate again.... I assume they were factory coils because they took a third coil off with a carbide cutting wheel. I assume they used new spring isolators as well.
Now the things I covered here are'nt so much for asthetics but for handling. If you want to be "slammed" use eibach's. But I warned ya. If you don't drive your car often you'll love 'em. But if you rollin a daily driver corner burner, these things should work. Strope speed shop performed the work on the Camaro performers car (which is really project magnum TPI, sorry....I goofed) I'll include their web site address, hopefully they can answer any other questions of the build up. (www.stropespeedshop.com) If they can't help I know project Magnum TPI's owner is a member here @ thirdgen.org. He may be able to answer any more questions. Sorry about the book.

PF Flyer

... and they'll do just fine, if done properly.

1) Don't over heat them, just enough to cut them
2) Cut 1/2 a coil at a time
3) Heat and bend the top flat again after the cut
4) Don't use water to cool, let them air cool

Cutting used springs are fine and actually preferred, since the spring has already settled.

irocet305

I'm not trying to undermind anyone here, but I know that heated coil are dangerous. Even companies like eibach and moog suggest against it. Now I'm not an engineer, nor do I make coil springs for a living. I just believe in keeping things safe.
I just want to address that when you remove a coil spring it will "unsettle" because the energy that was stored when compressed is now released. That spring will go back to original length. Put you car on a lift for a couple of hours and you'll see that when you release the stored energy and let the car down, the car actually seems higher. Now my other issue is I personally would never use old springs. Going low buck is one thing, but let's be serious and not skimp on safety. That old spring is'nt going to have the same load capacity due to loss of tensile strength in the spring. Again like i said before...if your going just for the look then heat 'em,cut em', whatever you chose. It's your car, your money, and your insurance should you be doing any spirited driving and one of those cobbled springs may break.
Everything here is more of my opinion than fact. I personally believe in being safe. If you've seen someone do work like this to their cars and hurt themselves or damage thier pride and joy then you would understand my concern with telling people to do it right the first time. Let's just keep it safe.

poncho9789

If you let a metal cool over time it will soften (anneal) and if you dip in watter or oil to cool you harden it. Cutting coils are fine but you can also use a saw to cut through them and avoid the problems of worrying about if you are heating them too much or letting them cool too long.

89blackGTA

It seems like a lot of work for something that could jack your car. I dont understand why someone wouldnt just pay $230 and get the springs that are done the right way.

Brian

irocet305

I agree with cutting springs... a carbide cutting wheel is the required/perferred method. Anther thing to keep in mind that I thought of is that some springs have progressive coils. If you cut off the top You remove part of the springs capacity as it compresses which can also alter handling deversely. The whole principle behind cutting coils is to tailor them, if you know what your doing. Sure it's easier just to buy a set, but your getting the manufactures specs which may be too low or to firm/soft for your application. You probably could have coils custom wound, but I imagine that would be expensive. I am only giving idea's as to tried and proven things that have already been done. Like I said it's your car and your money, you decide what you want to do.

RICH92RS350

Herb Adams (former GM engineer and racer) recommended cutting with a die-grinder & cut-off wheel, and then heating and flattening the last coil.
It's in his book on race suspension engineering.
FYI
-Rich-

DRIVE2FAST

I HAVE LOWERED A FEW CARS IN MY DAY.
CUTTING SPRINGS IS OK AS LONG AS YOU USE A HIGH RPM CUTTING WHEEL AND NOT A TORCH. OVERHEATING THE SPRING WILL TRASH IT.
HEATING AND FLATTENING THE CUT IS ALSO A GOOD IDEA SO THE SPRING SITS FLUSH IN ITS POCKET. ONLY HEAT THE SPRING JUST LONG ENOUGH TO FLATTEN THE PIGTAIL. DONT THERMAL SHOCK IT AFTER HEATING WITH WATER LET IT AIR COOL. ( WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES YOU CANT DRIVE TOO GOOD WITH MISSING EYES )
BE VERY CAREFUL HOW MANY COILS YOU TAKE OFF AND CUT THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OFF ON LEFT AND RIGHT SIDES FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.
BE PREPARED TO BUY NEW SPRINGS IF YOU F$K IT UP.
THE STRING METHOD MENTIONED EARLIER IN THIS THREAD IS A GOOD WAY TO ENSURE THE SAME AMOUNT OF SPRING IS REMOVED ON LEFT AND RIGHT COILS.
I PERSONALLY USE THIN GAUGE CABLE TAPED AROUND THE COIL TO ENSURE ACCURACY ON HOW MUCH I TAKE OFF.
1/4 COIL AT A TIME IS A SAFE BET BUT BE PREPARED TO TAKE APART YOUR CAR AGAIN AFTER YOU WANT TO LOWER IT FARTHER.
REMEMBER YOU CANT PUT BACK WHAT YOU TAKE OFF SO DONT GET TOO KRAZY. I HAVE DRIVEN AROUND RESTING ON BUMP STOPS BEFORE AND ITS NO FUN. IT DOWNRITE HURTS WHEN YOU HIT BUMPS.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Ummmm....The last post in this thread was in 2002. You just bumped a 9 yr old threads, by basically just repeating what had already been said.

With that said......

I'd done both cut & bought lowered springs & gone autox racing with both. About the only reason the store bought springs were better, was because of the higher spring rate. Higher than even the cutting raised the rate of the stock springs.

But now I use Ground Control Weight Jacks in my GTA. Not the cheapest way, but by far the best choice, IMHO.

DRIVE2FAST

WHAT RIDE HEIGHT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND FOR A 90 MILE TOP SPEED RUN ON A GOOD ROAD ?
IM FIGURING AS LOW AS I CAN GET IT WITH A LITTLE TRAVEL LEFT . (ITS NOT A DAILY DRIVER ITS BEING BUILT FOR TOP SPEED )

Guest

Look at the top of the suspension forum at the "Sticky" threads. I have noveled two extensive posts labeled "Ultimate Suspension part one and part two" that will give you most info you are asking about. The postings detail why these perameters are desired based on optimum geometry with third gen factory suspension points.

Dean

DRIVE2FAST

THANX

micktroup2

I bought Moog stock springs from Summit. I cut a coil off the front and 1 and 1/2 off the back(could use another 1/2 I think!) and they work fine!! Used heater hose for isolators and they are better than before. Used a cutoff wheel and put them straight back in. Easy!! I wouldn't do it with 20 year old springs- the ones that came out were tired and a lot lower than the replacements...

DRIVE2FAST

IM GONNA CUT MY STOCK SPRINGS. IF IT DOESN'T WORK IM GONNA GET MOOGS AND DO WHAT MICKTROUP DID.

DRIVE2FAST

DID YOU FLATTEN THE PIGTAIL WITH A TORCH OR GRIND IT FLAT OR BOTH OR NEITHER ??

lonesomeloser

So I need to heat the cut end and flatten the coil to make it a square coil instead of tangential, right?

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I've never done it. Just cut & reinstall. Never had any ill effects from not "flattening" the coil end again. Just made sure that they are clocked correctly into the spring pockets.

lonesomeloser

No ill effects from the spring not sitting flush against the isolator/body? Also, the rears need to be clocked??

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

As long as springs are clocked correctly, and mine are, the rest will take care of itself good. This is not the first car I've installed springs in without isolaters and never had a problem with the other cars either. I suppose in 20 years it MIGHT scratch enough for some rust to have in.