does anybody have any pics of ladder bars on our cars.

 

There's a bunch in my picture gallery on my web site

 

planes you install ladder bars ,subframe connector

my mail babyone125@hotmail.com

 

I suggest you take a look at the rear suspension write up on Stephen's web site to make sure ladder bars are what you want. http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/4link.html

Stephen, that is very well laid out website with lots of good info. My wife and I just had her website done and it gives you a new apreciation for a well laid out site without all the junk you see on a lot of sites.

 

I've only been working on my web site for about 10 years now. Gives me lots of time to realize how not to clutter it up with useless information or whizzy new HTML stuff. The newest HTML I use is on the gallery page to display the pictures. You'll notice I don't have a links page. Personally I hate links pages on private pages. It just becomes a web site that only has links to other web sites that only have links etc. Banner ads, even ones that pay for click throughs, don't pay enough to clutter up my pages. If someone wants to pay a set monthly fee to display a banner ad, I'll put one up but nobody wants to pay for advertising any more so there's no banners. The only banners I would put up are ones I create to promote any car sponsors but I have none. I am planning on redoing the web pages again. Roughly every 12-18 months I want to try something new.

As for suspension, I'll be starting on my back half project soon. The ladder bars are coming out and I'm 4 linking the car. I haven't made that first cut yet.

 

If you wanted to get real ambitious you should look into doing an offset 3-link setup. The offset 3rd link, if setup properly, can completely conteract axle wrap. You might want to cruise over to www.corner-carvers.com and read up on what Bill Shope has to say on the subject. He was one of the original ram chargers and they use this setup on the "high and mighty" car with some success once they learned how to set it up properly. I bet you could use a regular 4-link kit and just leave off the left hand upper link.

Road race guys like the 3-link because it inherently can't bind since there is only 1 link to constrain the axle in each plane.

 

Third gen suspension is already considered a 3 link with the LCA and torque arm.

If you're going to go through all the trouble of installing a 4-link system, why would you leave off one of the bars? The bottom bars are used to set the wheelbase. The top left bar is used to set the pinion angle. The top right bar is used to adjust the preload. You need all the bars on a 4-link system.

There's actually one more bar required for ladder bars or a 4-link/3-link system. The axle locater. It can be a panhard bar, diagonal link or a wishbone. All do the same thing. They keep the diff centered under the car.

 

yes and no. The 3rd gen system isn't considered a 3-link because the tq arm slides. A true 3-link has fixed mounting points.
- The thing is with a 4-link is that unless you keep the upper and lower bars parallel, the rear will steer under hard cornering. Obviously, you don't want the rear twisting sideways going into corners. BUT, if you run the bars parallel, they don't plant the rear tires as well. By only having 1 upper bar, no matter where the rear is at, it only has one locator for twist, thus doesn't turn when one tire is up and the other is down.

- Stephen, I know you know what you're doing/talking about, just FYI...
About 6 months ago the National Dragster had a really great article on tuning 4-links. I've got 2 10.5 outlaw cars cutting 1.1X 60fts on a 4-links and I still learned some things from the article. It's not overly long, but it's a well written over-view. - Since you're switching to 4-link you might wanna read it.

 

Good explanation Shagwell, a torque arm and a 3-link setup are completly different in both how they work and how you tune them.

Correct me if I'm wrong but why would you want to preload your rear end? I'm having problems figureing out how you could adjust your upper control arms to do anything but bind if they weren't adjusted equally. Now you could adjust them at different angles for some sort of funky instant center that could offset axle torque.

 

Many factory cars such as Ford Fox bodies and GM G bodies use a factory 4-link system but they're classified as a triangulated 4-link. The top 2 bars are angled inward. This eliminates the need for a locater bar and is close to the idea of a 3 link system.

Setting up the 4-link is like I mentioned above. The bars are all adjusted to the same length. The top right bar is used for preload. It's installed as the same length as the other bars but is used to preload the suspension by lengthening or shortening the bar. If the car pulls to the right on launch (normal effect due to chassis twisting), you shorten the preload bar one flat. If more than 2 flats are required to make the car go straight, you have other alignment/chassis problems.

Preloading the bar is the same effect as that air bag in the right rear spring. It's a chassis tuning aid.

 

Stephen's right on with the preload deal. When your front end is in the breeze the rotational torque of the motor will steer the car, since it will hook the driver's side tire harder. By preloading one side you counteract the torque, thus making the car go straight. - Be it ladder bar or 4-link in a drag car, if it has much power and is going straight it has preload.

- This is what I've been trying to figure out how to accomplish with a tq arm set-up. I've been toying with the idea of leaving the upper links out on the new chassis and experimenting with a tq arm. It would give me infinite lca angle adjustment, and I'll also be running an adjustable front tq arm bracket to allow changes in it's angle. I'm just not sureif it will fly straight without some sort of preload. - I have combatted it some by preloading my sway bar(works for the GTA), but I don't know if I can get enough this way to make the system work for a 10.5 outlaw car. I'm gonna try it one way or the other, since I can always just bolt the upper 4-link bars in and drop the tq arm out.