Which is better for a road racing application. Spohn's coil-over or the Pro series Eibach springs????

 

Come on guys I've seen lots of posts on installing the Coil Overs but nothing on the performance afterwards. Let here how they perform

 

i didn't have spohn so i can't comment..

 

You have the PA system????Right. Do you think your better with the coil over then with the old springs. I'm looking to start the suspension on my race only car and ran across this when looking for new springs. Any input on the performce of coil overs over the standard aftermarket springs would be helpful.

thanks

 

I have exoperience with coilovers, I have experience with 3rd gen suspensions. I just do not have first hand experience with coilovers on 3rd gens.

Let me ask a few questions to see if I can help steer you in the direction you want to go- I do know alot about the process on getting coilovers onto a 3rd gen and what it takes geometry wise. But before all that, What are your intentions imeddiately for the car other than coilovers? Meaning what other parts (and I mean exactly with discriptions of options are you planning to put onto this instance?- I do not mean what do you "intend to do in the near future" when you get more money. Reason I ask is in is crucial to nknow what parts are being married together and to see if coilovers are even in the budget because the magnitude of variance toosee a significant difference of them is based on what else is done to the car also.

Dean

 

Hmm, that's a hard question to answer. I personally would need to look at how you plan on bracing the strut towers. If no bracing is added then I'd go Eibach springs. If you plan on bracing it go with the coil overs to save some weight. When I say bracing I mean like a cage going through the firewall to the top of the tower. Since the strut is further out from stock the force seen by the spring is obviously less but it's still the whole corner of the car and the front no less.

 

well it was a very fine line. without comparing anything other then performance i'd say it was better. mainly because you can dial it in which you can do with standard spring choices but it's obviously slightly different. would i buy them again.... never. the price does not hold up to the gain. it's alot of work to get the rate perfect which not only costs time and money but the ride isn't quite as nice. if your building a race car only though then it might be of an advantage to you for the complete adjustment.

also understand though that i had alot of suspension modifications with everything you can buy in a catalog and then some. i also had some extra bracing under the hood beyond the stb and a cage in the car. while i don't know if the cage added anything in the way of the coilovers the stb and extra bracing underneath was cruitial to the ride quality.

 

I really don't understand people's fascination with coil overs. Particularily for Road Racing. Just what is trying to be achieved?

The disadvantages to coil-overs ( For Road Racing ) far exceed any advantage. And in my books there are no adavantages at all.

1: Weight loss w\co's. Whoopee....maybe 2 lbs per spring. Will be offset by the 20 lbs of extra bracing and reinforcement to strut towers that will be required.

2: Ride height adjustability? You can do the job cheaper and better with standard Circle Track height adjusters. $39.95 each.

http://www.pitstopusa.com/searchresu...ategoryID=1793

Problems with c\o's for Road Racing. And they are two BIGGIES!!

1: Scrub Radius. People forget about this and it is a big, big issue. Coil Overs will force your front track out. You can't tuck the wheel and tire in as close to the strut with coil overs. Larger scub radius is bad, bad news. Other problem is that you may have to run a narrower front tire and wheel than with the stock design suspension. I can run 315\35x17's on 17x10.5" wheels under the stock front fenders. Karl runs 18 x10.5's up front. No way can you get that much tire and wheel under with Coil overs. If you run flares then you have the huge scrub radius problem again.

Edit: Front and rear wheels are actually 17x11's. Karl runs 18x11's all around and will to go to 18x12's on the rear, in the near future.

A local Mustang Road Racer did this ( Coil overs ) to his Race car. Fairly nice job too. The results were HORRIBLE. Car handles like a pig due to scrub radius. He had to run a narrower tire and wheel combo than he liked. Plus, he found that he had to Jack up the ride height because the tires were still hitting the fender lips. Flare's will be added...at extra cost. But he'll still have the scrub radius issue . All in all it was a huge failure.

2: The chassis is simply not designed to take the loads. Road Race cars place a lot more strain on the inner wheel houses than " Most " drag cars ( Wheel stander's possibly excluded... but we may hit five or more curbs per lap. Multiply that by 20 laps and you have the equivalent of 100 wheel stands per race!! ). Every corner and " Curb hop" repeatedly places suspension spring loads to the wheel housing that they are not designed to take. So you now have to brace and reinforce them. Where is the weight savings in that?

To me, it's all a bad idea. If you're building a serious Road Racing car and the rules allow it... just Tube Frame the whole front end, build a proper Double A-Arm suspension and be done with it. Or just stay with how it was designed from GM.

Just my .02c

 

wow...brought up some points to me i never even thought of. so if one were to go with a coilover setup it is not just a bolt in installation? is bracing a necessity (i dont plan to road race but this is a street/strip car that may see some SCCA).

 

I don't know the post nore do I care to search for it but there was a thread showing a really nice aluminum perch all bent up. He hit something hard, curb, wood in the road, can't really remember. I don't even know if he had coil overs or not, all I know is the thing got bent BAD. I wouldn't put all my weight on these strut mounts if I were you, it's just asking for trouble. Brace it and then maybe, even then I don't think it's worth it.

 

coilovers for the most part were bolt in for me. required a coilover front end but other then that.. highly recommend some sort of strut tower bar though to keep it from flexing.

 

If you do go the coil over route, Spohn's at least come with a plate that helps to spread out the stress. I am still not sold on the coil over route...the only thing that is a positive in my book is the ride hight adjustability.

.02 cents

 

i have read a lot about this recently and everything that seems to come up is how bad it bends the fenders etc. and with the stealthram i cant run a strut tower brace anymore, actually sold my kenny borwn. so it looks like they are out for me....i really wanted them too especially after seeing the rear coilover kit from spohn. i wanted to try to get the billet mounts and some sort of plate for the spring to rest on underneath the fender but i just dont know if i should chance it.

would a brace from the strut towers to just the cowl work well enough (once again stealthram in the way)?

 

Ask yourself this. Just what do you hope to gain with coil overs ( for the front )? Are you doing it just because they look kool? If so that's absolutely the worst reason.

Are you doing it because you need to adjust the ride height? Just how often do you really need to adjust ride height? And if you really do need to change it you can either buy an adjustable spring spacer kit like the one I linked to or you can install an adjustable weight jack like the ones from Ground Control.

http://www.ground-control.com/?D=72f...7607aca9045a31

They have an adjustable one that can be accessed from beneth the Control Arm with a 1\2" ratchet. Simple, effective and cheaper than Coil-Overs. Plus it places the spring load where the factory intended them....In the HEAVILY reinforced X-member. They also have a Nascar style weight jacker system where the weight jacker bolt can be accessed through the engine compartment. This require a bit of welding skills and "removal" of the X-member ( you can actually do it without removing the X-member. Just a bit more difficult ) to install the kit....but it's well worth the extra effort. $259.00 for either system

You can go better than the Ground Control kit by fabricating your own weight jack system......and you can build it for about one half the cost. Any Circle Track supplier can provide the parts. One neat thing you can add is an upper " Swivel" plate for the spring perch. This ensures that the spring has no " bowing " loads placed on it during suspension travel and makes it easier to adjust when loaded.

Circle Track suppliers are a good source for HARD CORE parts. Because there are so many " Roundy Round " tracks in the US, parts are usually dirt cheap. And they are well made. Check these places out. Everything from Aluminium Rads to Weight Jackers ( couldn't think of anything with a " Z" ).

http://www.lefthanderchassis.com/

http://www.howeracing.com/

http://www.pitstopusa.com/

http://www.stockcarproducts.com/techindx.htm

http://www.behrents.com/

Hopefully this gives some people some ideas.

 

where is it bending the fenders? never did on mine although i didn't have the thousands and thousands of miles on them that would require it i'm sure. i had alot of bracing which helped and i never had any twisting or bending of the actual body, did start to bend the hms mounts i had though as they were quite soft. i would just stay with the stock ones with coilovers as they held up better.

 

Yeah, people forget about aluminum it's it's inherent properties. There is a reason why aluminum connecting rods only last a fraction of the life of a steel or ti rod.
Those mounts are really nice but they're eye candy only. Expensive eye candy at that. To get the extra travel out of the struts I'd just space out the steel one and I believe somebody sells spacers, just not sure who. The spacers can be made out of aluminum.

 

chickenman i want to go to coilovers for many reasons, the adjustability, tube kmemner and aarms, looks being one but its down at the bottom of the list, having a coilover kit period on a thirdgen, and i plan to go to the rear coilover kit from spohn as well so i can have coilovers all around. coilovers may not be the best investment but id really like to do it, just like a rack and pinion (which will hopefully follow).

kandied i think it was IHI who had his fenders buckle and warp due to the stress of coilovers on his drag car and all ive heard is how bad it messes up peoples cars besides yours. lucky guy

so my MAIN question is....im not going to be able to brace the strut towers together because im running a stealthram. if i get spohn's 3 plate system (a different coilover set, 200# springs but see is steve will sell me just his plates seperate) would that suffice is being enough support?

Spohns Plate System

 

Well if you really want to go with Coil-Overs then the Spohn kit looks pretty good.

As for bracing. Try and run a couple of braces back to the Firewall from the rear side of the Towers. That should help some. Custom fabricate braces using Heavy wall tubing with Rod Ends. Weld some doubler plates to the Firewall and Strut Towers with Tabs ( Double Shear ) to bolt the Tubes into. That will help some.

The Rack and Pinion is a good idea BTW.

 

well if you can't use a stb bar don't go coilover... not that you can't but a stb makes a huge difference in ride with them on the street. as far as the other statement... i'm not even going to comment on that smart remark lol. show me some pictures of someones parts that were destroyed during normal use with coilovers. i'm the last to argue the setup as i don't like coilovers but they work just fine when setup right and you don't beat on your car.

IHI, i have no idea what he did to bend his fenders as i never heard anything about it. the last time i saw his drag car it was a low 13 high 12 car so i don't see how it would have had anything that could bend a fender but i'm sure things changed when he got it running right. what's so incredibly funny as you say we've all heard how bad it has been on cars, post a thread to some documented truth. show me a strut tower that ripped, show me a buckled fender.... at best i've seen bent strut tower braces. the one strut tower that was actually ripping from the welds was on a teenagers car who hit a curb. go figure..

i'm just giving you opinions and statements on what many of the thirdgens in my area are running with having zero problems wether they are street cars like my own or low 9 sec drag cars. make your own decision. there are enough parts out there to do it safely, have been for a long time.

 

And the key point is that the original post ( by mykxt202 )referred to whether or not Coil-Overs were a good idea for a Road Racing car.

Edit: I just noticed that halfway through the thread "CamarosRUS" kinda hijacked "mykxt202's " thread. So we started off with a question concerning a Road Racing car....and replies were given by a different person for a different application. Kinda confuses the issue.....especially for an old fart like me LOL.

They are NOT a good idea a good idea for a Road Racing car for the exact two reasons I stated in my first post. IE: Scrub Radius and repeated suspension pounding when running over FIA curbs. If you want them for street, show or Drag Racing...go right ahead. But for a Road Racing car....forget about it. It will be a dismal failure ( on our cars ).

 

which is true, i wouldn't run them on a road race car. you wouldn't gain anything that couldn't be done with the conventional setups. it's just an unnecessary expense for such an application.

 

i did kinda hijack the thread, my apologies but i know kandied has personal experience with coilovers and chickenman has some very good advise. i think ill try to give it a shot....only if i hear back from spohn about his plate system. and i will try to fab or have someone fab brackets that run from each strut tower to the firewall.

 

Something is in the works in the very near future and I plan to hopefully have a Coilover setup on my car very soon.

In all respect Chickenman, I do not have any issue running coilovers on my 16x8 factory Iroc rims with even a 255/50-16" tire on them ( I ram currently running 245's). They would fit fine without having to add any spacers that would push out the factory scrub radius..

The setup will in fact eliminate about minimum of 5 lbs on each side of the cars front unsrung suspension weight when going to this new prototype coilover set when compared to an A-arm mounted weight jacker setup. Plus the better articulation angle of the coil for travel movement freedom over an A-arm mounted weightjacker.

The strut mount bending problem has been addressed and will no longer be and issue.

The inner fender will be sufficiantly braced as well for the new strut mount to clamp to securely and solidly.

I intend to go to a coilover setup to reduce unsprung weight and gain ride quality and handling ans a result of that reduction. Aftermarket wide rims is not an issue for me and will not affect my suspension geometry. The gain of ride heght adjustability, coil rate changeout, and roll center changes while retaining ride height is a major adjustment tool I seek and this new setup gives me that advantage.

Please don't ask any further info for now, just know a prototype has been built and being tested. There is more info to come when more info presents itself. As for now, thats all I know and can provide.

 

I know you said no questions, but I need some clarification.

A prototype of what?

Are you saying the Spohn coilovers are inadequate or are you saying you are working on some bracing (strut mount, etc.) in conjunction with the Spohn coilovers?

 

It is nothing I am building. It is an upgraded version designed for lowered cars.