85berlinetta2.8

ok so heres the whole story. sorry its long. if you dont want to read it all just read the summary

i needed 2 tires and an alignment. speedy had the cheapest tires and if i bought from them i get 20$ off an alignment. smart to go there right? so i order the tires, they forget to call me no problem im a nice guy. roll off my back. so the day after i go and leave my car with them. new tires on my ne refinished rims. so i come to pick up the car. they tell me its still wandering on the road and i need to get the pitman arm replaced, they will credit me to get it re aligned for 30 days. i say ok ill do that. i pay and go fire it up.

now when i say big exhaust leak i mean i couldnt even hear the radio. my car didnt sound like that before. WTF!?!! so i go back in and tell the guy uh, my car sounds like ****. i know it has a small leak at the header but now it sounds like nascar. the manager brings the mechanic out. "yeah man your exhaust rotted right off. its all rusted you need a new one"
i leave and my alignment is worse and go immediatly to my trusted mechanic (who doesnt have an alignment rack else id have him do it)

so he peeks under the car and points out a FRESH hole. like someone stabbed it with a screwdriver.

so i go back to speedy and get the manager out. he sees the hole and says to put it on the lift again. i see myself by looking at the lifts wheel ramps that the car dragged and the exhaust got caught.
i bring the manager into the shop and calmly show him that the exhaust got caught and ripped off. sure its rusty but i say "it wasnt broken like this when i dropped the car off" he says dont worry it will be replaced for free. the mechanic who worked on the car is still yelling about its not his fault it rotted off and i sit in the waiting room and watch him cuss and throw things.


the manager is calm and apologises a lot. so i got a new pipe put on that replaced ALL the rusty parts on my exhaust. YAY right?

so i go to the auto parts store looking for a pitman arm. they say its a non wear item on my car. cant get one.

damn. go to fire up the car. wont start. starter just grinds and spins. it was making a bit of a noise before but now its all bad. look under the car and the bolts are hanging 4" out. now if i was under the car working on alignment, you would think i would see 2, 4" shiny thread bolts hanging off the starter and tighten them up. i push the starter in and go back to my trusted mechanic. (hes great) he jacks up the car and tightens the bolts leans on the tire and says "uh oh thats bad" "what" he grabs my tierod which i know had been adjusted for the alignment, you could see the threads that was moved. "your tirods are ****ed" wow.
so you see my issue. i got new tierods 20$ each side. and im thinking, my credit is only good for the bad mechanic that ripped the exhaust off my car at speedy. i dont want him doing the alignment.


*SUMMARY*

so first my problem

pitman arm. is it whats causing my alignment problem?
what else should i replace?
i already did: shocks, struts , springs ,balljoints, sway bar endlinks, i should do the inner and outer tirods and sleeves right?
what about the centerlink whats that all about. does it wear or just replace when its bent?

should i get an idler arm? maybe the bad mechanic got that and the pitman arm confused?


what about the rag joint?

i like this thread

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...itman+bushings

im going to get my good mechanic to replace all the parts, and im going to tell the speedy manager -who is a nice guy and knows the bad mechanic is a grumpy old man- when it comes time for my alignment that i dont want the bad mechanic to work on my car.

TuOrZ

go elsewhere or stand outside the bay door and watch the guys work on it (which will only **** them off and with your history at that place who knows what they'll do to the car, lol)

just go elsewhere, any decent sized place can do an alignment.

85berlinetta2.8

yeah i really dont want to shell out 80$+tax for another alignment

so what parts should i replace? i may just do them all

any opions on the pitman arm?

anyone have a pic of where the rag joint goes?

TuOrZ

rag joint is on the steering shaft, close to the steering box. It's a rubber like disc with few "studs" in it. You can find a replacement at autozone in the help isle/section (it helps to bring the old one with you).

They are correct that pitman arm does not wear out (I guess it could be damaged or something along those lines, but that's unlikely).

Idler arm probably needs to be replaced, as do both inner and outer tierods, might as well do the centerlink too.

While you have that apart do the lower balljoints, swaybar endlinks and bushings

Throw in some new struts and you'll have a brand new front end

TuOrZ

oh and the tierod adjusting sleeves will probably be rusted beyond any reasonable use too, you can get the stock replacement for very cheap (like $5 each) or go for the nicer ones available from hotchkis or other aftermarket places

PS: for tierods, idler arm, balljoints, try to get some MOOG parts

yuel

just my opinion, but from personal and friends opinion, the best place and only place i will get an alignment is from a dealership, doesnt cost a whole lot more if not the same, but much better quality service then a 20 yr kid at a local tire shop, alignments are easy to do, but there are proper steps in doing it correctly.
my 2 1/2 cent opinion

85berlinetta2.8

thanks for all the replys, i just bought inner and outer tierods, adjusters, idler arm and as soon as i get an opinion or two on replacing the centerlink ill do that. ill get the ragjoint too

Dizturbed One

I'm 100% with the guy that said dealership for alignment on these cars... Simply because I remember seeing a couple alignment guys on here mention a certain tool needed for these things, and some other problem with alot of inexperienced alignment guys not realizing that you can set some aspect of the alignment... I don't know much about it, but I've seen a couple posts about former alignment guys getting pissed when they have to take their cars in and they aren't done right.

85berlinetta2.8

anymore information on this tool?

im thinking about asking for a refund and going to the dealership. id like to use this tool and the mechanics bad behavious as leverage for the refund

STRIFE69

First off you should ask the shop that worked on your car WHY they didn't tell you you had bad/worn parts on your car that would affect a proper alignment. If they knew you had bad parts that needed replaced then why would they aligned the car? It common pratice to check for bad parts before doing the work so you can inform the owner they need to dish out $$. I would demand your money back.

Thats like doing the work then going oh yeah it won't work cause you have bad parts that need replacing.

If you changing the tie rods and idler arm might as well go with the centerlink too. Only one more bolt to undo to change it too. It's a moving part so will wear like the rest.

85berlinetta2.8

ok ordered a lifetime warranty centerlink

cant find the rag joint. is there another name for it?

still cant find a pitman arm- will goto dealer

V6#20

The guy told you the wrong one. Its the idler arm you need to replace. You basically should never have to replace the pitman arm because it is solid mounted to the steering box and the centerlink attachment point has the bushing on its side.

However, the idler arm has a pivot point that wears and drops the angle of the passenger tierods.
You can order a MOOG heavy duty idler arm through Summit racing for about $75 (part # MOG-K6483T)

85berlinetta2.8

ah thats what i needed to hear. somthing that i dont have to buy.

already bought white box idler arm. may return it for a trw one. dont think i can get a moog one. dont want to order one .

yuel

totally agree with STRIFE69, demand that refund!

85berlinetta2.8

ok i replaced the tinner and outer tierods, center link, and idler arm. and my good mechanic used a measuring tape to measure thr distance from the center of the front tires and the distance of the center of the back of the front tires and it was perfect. dont know if this is a ghetto alignment method. but wehen i drive its still way off. i havent taken it to the alignment machine yet for my free alignment, but im wondering agian if it is a bent or damaged pitman arm.

are these expensive? or is it easy to tell if its bent?

nape

iTrader: (1)

Are the roads you're driving on smooth? If not, the car will want to wander, especially if you have 16" wheels which would usually mean a 245/50/16 (fairly wide tire).

My '91 GTA used to wander pretty bad and a lot of that was eliminated when I put a wonder bar (steering brace) on. I've had two from TDS and they fit perfect and solved my problem: http://www.top-downsolutions.com/pro...&reviews_id=32

As far as the setting the toe with a tape measure, that's how race teams do it. In this case, if it's good enough for racing, it's good enough for the street.

Also, did the alignment shop give you a print out with the specs they aligned it to? Most alignment places do that. If you have those specs, post them up. Maybe the tech used the wrong specs.

If all else fails, I'd say your last wear item that you could replace would be the steering box itself.

85berlinetta2.8

ive tanken it on all sorts of roads. and believe me, its off alot. the top of the steering wheel is between the 10 and 11 o clock position. i center the steering wheel and the car turns sharp to the right. i have 205 70r 14" wheels.

still i havent gone to the alignment shop but im in fear of my pitman arm being bent so im gioing to post some pics of it here. it was the crappy mechanics reccomendation to replace it... and i dont want to waste my free alignment on it being actually that.

its at night now and its raining so please ill try to make the pics decent.

i really need my car to drive straight. ive spent enough $ on this. and the pitman arm is the only part besides the rag joint and the steering gear.

85berlinetta2.8

if you need to see closeups of any of these pics go to http://kcampbell2.photosite.com/camaro_steer/ and clikc the images

nape

iTrader: (1)

Your pitman arm looks fine to me.

So your only problem right now is that your steering wheel is turned when you're going straight?

If the car isn't wandering anymore like you said in your first post, an alignment shop can fix the steering wheel being off. If you have the car going straight, and you let go of the wheel, does it keep driving straight?

They can either adjust both tie rod ends back in one direction, or remove the steering wheel and move it over a couple splines.

If it doesn't pull, you're fine.

85berlinetta2.8

you mean if i drive straight ignoring how off the steering wheel is, and let go of the wheel if it drives straight?

im pretty sure its still wandering. its alot of work to drive.

nape

iTrader: (1)

Exactly.

Any chance you checked to see if you have the imfamous frame crack around the steering box?

85berlinetta2.8

if i let go of the wheel it wanders to the right.

where exactly is this crack supposed to be?

Dizturbed One

right around the steering box, happens alot.

i've seen it on my mother in laws old chevy truck too, happened right behind the steering box and back towards the cab slightly.

when you turn hard while sitting still you can usually see the fender and hood having some seperate movement issues if it's already really bad, that's how i noticed it on my mother in laws truck.

85berlinetta2.8

interesting development.

i go back and ask the manager ifhe remebers me. the mechanicsure did.

anyway i say i have replaced every thing but the pitman arm, and have taken it to a different mechanic that said the pitman arm doesnt wear it bends, and its not bent. the manager says their alignment rack is down and isnt likley going to be fixed before the end of the year when they are closing. and i say no more speedy here. and he says yeah. so i suggest a refund and he grants it. 70$ ....... in a little bit ill be goint o my local BIG GM dealer not the small ****tty one that screwed me before.

C&DPerformance

Is your car wondering or pulling? If it's wondering when you let go of the steering wheel it will go anywhere. Your pitman does not wear out. The only way to damage it is in a wreck and it usually twist the splines on the gearbox. What kind of shape is your back tires in. If they are crap or low it can wonder. Find someone who has a DSP600 it is the best alignment machine there is. Most of the dealerships are getting them now. Tell them you want a before and after printout. And make sure caster is set.

85berlinetta2.8

what is caster?

llvll4l2c91350

lookin at car from the side. imagine a straight vertical line from lower ball joint up. now another line from lower ball joint (1st pivot point) to top of strut (2nd pivot point). those 2 lines indicate ur caster angle. wont affect tire wear but will cause handling differences or pulling problems if its off.

85berlinetta2.8

what would set that off

and how do you adjust that

nape

iTrader: (1)

You need a caster/camber gauge to set it yourself, and caster is adjusted on the same plate as the camber.

Fore and aft movement changes caster, side to side changes camber.

85berlinetta2.8

GOOD NEWS!

i went to the dealer and they treated me very well. i got a shuttle to and from my house, and the alignment was only 98$ canadian. they also printed off me a spec sheet. the car is wayy better now than it was before, and its so much easier to drive.

here it is


thanks to everyone for their help.

nape

iTrader: (1)

As far as a diagnosis of why your car was all over the road, I would say it was because of your toe.

I don't know why it lists degrees, usually toe is measured in inches. If you had 5/8" toe out (positive toe = toe in, negative toe = toe out) on each side, that's nuts. A lot of people usually say 1/16" per side for 1/8" toe out total is about as much as you want to run.

Your mechanic evidently didn't get it dead on with the tape measure.

*edit* fixed my switch up with toe in/out.

85berlinetta2.8

thats ok, i didnt expect him to, i just get him to install things. hes always been good to me, like never using the rocker as a jack point, and giving me fair prices. as for the mechanic at speedy, their shop is going out of business for a reason.

so glad i got it done right, now.

C&DPerformance

Positive toe is toe in and negative is toe out. All alignment machines read in degrees. 1 degree equals 1 inch of toe. Toe is read as total toe don't worry about each side if you have more on one side it just makes your steering wheel off. You have a .10 of a degee toe in and that is what is spec on our cars. As long as the man wasn't bumping the heads looks like he did you a good job.