Just wondering, would a bigger sway bar up front make the ride a little harsher? My theory was that maybe each side on the front is now not as independent with a thicker bar....make any sense??

Just curious as I just went from 32 o 36 hollow and maybe it is just my imagination but it feels a little bit harsher.

Thoughts??

 

A little harsher, you bet. The way the bar works (at least in a turn) is that when one front tire becomes unloaded in a turn it transfers the load to the other tire. Did you pre load the endlinks? Did you add poly? Did you change struts or springs? All will have an effect.

 

I have done struts as well and some other things but I did them 1 by one to see the effect of each so basically those are all ruled out. For the time being I used the same stock enlinks (rubber) and used the bushings that the guy left on his bar.....he said they were rubber stock 92 rubber but they sure seem harder than my 21 year old ones. THey are also beat up and cracked.

What do you mean by preload the endlinks? I did the final tightening after the car was on the ground. Oddly enough I can't tighten them anymore as I believe the nut has reached the end of the threaded part (it started slipping).

 

I assume he meant just as you did, with the car on the ground or at least jacking up the control arm. Thats what everyone told me to do when I did this as well.

 

Yes,
A bigger bar will be alittle more harsh, but, the car will take turns much better, with less lean, leting you take corners at higher speeds.
So, it depends on what you want out of your car.

George

 

If you tightened the nut until you ran out of thread you have pre-loaded the swaybar. Ther are some posts about this if I get a chance I will do a search and post a link to one that explains this well.

 

There appears to be some confusion going on between overtightening the endlinks and preloading the bar. These things may occur at the same time, but it is not entirely necessary that for one to occur requires that the other be present as well.


Preload is when the bar is under load from one end to the other, as is the case when one endlink is too short, or the bar, chassis, or control arm is bent. Think in terms of one of the bar arms being pushed up, and the other down.

With poly endlink bushings in particular, you might notice this as a gap between the lower half of the bar bushing and the bar itself at one endlink only, before you tighten anything up. Tightening up to close such a gap loads the bar by that much, which changes your corner weights slightly (and introduces a tiny amount of rotation about the roll axis as well). With any split bushing endlink, the two bushing halves next to the sleeve on the “long” endlink and the two bushing halves away from the sleeve on the “short” endlink will be compressed to a greater extent than will the other four, and the bar’s behavior will be slightly asymmetrical (in right turns vs lefts).


Overtightening the endlinks “preloads” all of the bushings, perhaps even excessively so. But this does not necessarily mean that you've preloaded the bar itself.

It’s not a particularly good idea to do this, even though it will increase the effectiveness of the bar slightly. The bad news is that you’re now clamping the endlinks to the bar more rigidly, and when the bar moves in its arc it will force a greater amount of bending to occur in the endlink (whose other end has to follow the control arm arc that moves in a different plane). Rubber bushing halves will have short lives, and with poly or other firm bushing material the endlink will lose the argument instead, usually in fatigue rather than breaking off right away. That’s one of the reasons why most OE split bushing endlinks use relatively soft rubber pieces - they are intended to approximate a 3-D hinge (think Heim joint/ball joint/rod end for cheap, with no maintenance requirements or noise issues being additional requirements).


Norm

 

Thanks for the info NOrm! So I take it then that preloading is bad (based on your explanation that preload is actually twisting the bar a bit) Is that correct? If i understand that right and it is bent in one direction from the start, turning one direction would be stiff but then turning the other direction would be loose as the bar goes back to "0" and then starts bending the other way......do i understand that right?

So how do you know when you have the endlinks tightened enough? I just snugged them up until the bushings compressed a bit and formed to the pieces.......although as I mentioned it got to the end of the threads which i thought was odd. Maybe because they were used bushing so they were already squished a bit?

 

yes your ride is going to be harsher.. you've increased your spring rate basically... just on one side at a time

how often are you hitting potholes that span the full length of your lane

 

Funny thing is that it even seems firmer when hitting railroad tracks or expansion joints that do go across the road.....that doesn't make senses as both wheels go up relatively evenly so the bar shouldn't do anything.

 

I wouldn't do it as a permanent condition, but mostly it isn't all that bad even though it throws the symmetry off a bit. In anything resembling driving that won't get you locked up, I doubt that you'd notice this unless you were running back-to-back tests and had reason to specifically expect it. There may be some ride motion effects, but mostly bar preload works like adjusting a coilover and just jacks some vertical tire force around.

Partly. Any looseness is something that would be a function of the initial softness of rubber bushings or a gap in at least one of the endlink assemblies. What does happen with true bar preload is that depending on which way you're cornering the bar will not always be helping the spring on the outside wheel, or always opposing the spring on the inside wheel. Ride-wise, I think you'd feel one-wheel bumps on one side more than those on the other.

OE split bushing endlink bolts have a torque spec, which I don't know offhand or even have handy (my CP car lost its OE rubber endlink bushings in favor of something firmer almost as soon as I'd bought it new, and the other cars use something quite different). But by eyeball, you don't want the bushings to squish out much past the OD of the washers. Sort of like shock bushings, actually. With poly, I don't initially tighten them much more than half a turn past snug, with Locktite blue. But I keep an eye on things for a while, retightening as necessary.


Norm

 

Thanks Norm.

One other quick question. I was reading a bit about that the bar shoud be able to rotate by hand in the clam shell bushings when the clamshells are tightened down and the endlins are not attached. Is this definitely the case and if so, how easily or difficult should it be to turn the bar? I think they were fairly tight when I put them on.

I noticed that the endlinks actually are on an angle inwards (with the wheels in the air anyways.....wouldn't the bar slide side to side if it were able to move in the clamshell bushings? I noticed on the front there is very little clearance between the bar and the K-member.

 

Just out of curiosity, what would be the negative effect of them being too tight?

 

Again, no recent experience with OE rubber. But with lubed poly the bar should rotate under its own weight.

Side to side motion is indeed possible, but if everything is reasonably symmetrical the bar will tend to seek a central position. I have seen means of limiting lateral movement, though.


Too tight means there's extra friction in the system, which mostly adds more ride harshness than the small amount of damping that the friction also represents is worth.


Norm

 

Ok, i will have to look at that then before making a final judgement as I believe they are likely too tight. I had the clam shells not quite tight and was using my foot to slide the bar over to centre it. For the time being the old beat up bushings that came with the bar are on there too so I should probably try some new ones. The thing does corner pretty darn well though, quite impressed with that for sure. You can tell the 15 inch rims/tires are the weak link now!

Still wondering about a couple things though:

1. WHat size is the spacer between the bushings (end links) supposed to be on these cars? I don't believe mine are stock anymore so I want to know I am getting the right ones (at the store on the weekend the guy showed me 2trw ones and they both had different spacers yet are suposedly for this car).

2. Any idea if 92 camaros came with harder durometer bushings for the clamshells. THe bar is from a 92 and they certainly seem harder than my 21 year old rubber ones. THe end links this guy had were definitely harder as they were the GM blue ones.

 

1. Long enough to make the bar arms horizontal as seen in side view. Your ride height figures into this as well, so on a car that’s closing in on being 15 years old it’s probably worth the time it takes to actually measure it. For what was shown to you, one may have been for a front bar and the other for a rear bar.

2. No idea.


FWIW, there isn’t much left in 15” max performance rubber that’s big enough for F-bodies and G-bodies. I’m just hoping that the upper shelf stuff doesn’t abandon the 17” sizes any time soon.


Norm

 

I thought I read on this site somewhere that the front and rear links are the same on these cars?