compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

Ok, so my alignment on my driver side front is not right. The wheel is leaning out and wearing the outside of the tire. I wanted to get an alignment done before I get my new wheels and tires put on. He says he'll check the front end parts before doing the alignment. So he leaves the steering wheel unlocked when it puts it up on the lift and grabs the tire and moves it left to right and then up and down and then tells me my steering linkage is bad. He does the same to the passenger side and then goes underneath the car for a minute or so and comes over and tells me my pittman arm, idler arm, inner and outer tie rod ends, and adjuster sleeves are all worn and need to be replaced. I questioned how he tested the linkage with the wheel unlocked and and then after calling around to a few places for the idler and pittman arm prices I questioned him about if the pittman arm is really a wearable item and then he got all pissed off because I'm questioning him. I can believe the tie rod ends are bad, but I have a very hard time believing the pittman arm is bad. So they want almost $1000 to replace everything.

How can I tell if all these parts really need to be replaced? Whatever does need to be replaced I'll be doing myself and then take it back for an alignment.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that the other reason I wanted an alignment was because if I going in a straight line on the highway doing 65mph+ the car will be all over the lane.

TexasSilhouette

iTrader: (4)

Tie rod ends are a simple ball in socket with a spring holding the ball into the socket. There should be no lateral play in the tie rod end. As the parts wear, the spring takes up the slack until it can no longer. To see if a lot of wear has been taken up, try to squeeze the end into the socket, if it can be done easily, you may want to consider a replacement. I have seen rip-off artists use pliers to compress the joints to demonstrate their wear, you would be able to compress a brand new joint with pliers so don't fall for that horse wash.

Idle arms are an item of considerable wear and can be checked for up and down play with the wheels pointing forward. A small amount of play is almost always there but the tighter it is, the better your steering will feel.

The pitman arm on a third gen is a non wearing item (except in rare instances where it was allowed to remain loose).

The center link houses the wearing point for the pitman connection check it for up and down play but mostly for rotational play. If you can rotate your center link more than a hair, its replacement will help.

Adjustment sleeves are reusable but shops like making you buy new ones so they don’t have to remove the old ones. Since they charge you the time to remove each component individually but just knock the ends off and let the whole assembly hit the floor. New sleeves do make a rebuild look pretty, but once you drive through a puddle you will never know the difference.

Replacement of all of these parts is trivial and the $1000 price tag is the equivalent of rape.

Consider the mileage on your car and determine if at this point you may want to just do a front end rebuild. A front end rebuild would include ball joints and lower control arm bushings and (anti-)sway bar bushings.
If you use urethane bushings and high quality parts you will really like the way it feels when it’s done. If there isn’t one on the forum already, I can give you a driveway alignment guide that if followed will have you within a degree of road ready.

The alignment shop you went to I suspect sells “Life Time” warranty alignments, they make their money by raping the customers every time they come in and the warranty is a ploy to suck them back in. See if you can’t find a competent technician to align your car, he will likely charge more than $19.95.

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

Thank you for the information! I just went a checked these out: the idler arm has very little play in it, the center link I couldn't get to move rotationally or side to side. The wheels are turned a little and I was just feeling through the top of the engine ba though so I'll recheck the idler arm when the wheels are straight. I'll have to pull the wheels off to check the ball joints.

Yes, please go ahead and give me the link to that driveway alignment guide. I really need to get the driver side wheel straight up, with that done I can at least still put my new wheels on. I just spent around $650 for new tires so I can't risk those wearing funny. My factory service manual should be here today, maybe that'll help with alignment too.

Just so you know, I have put 1" lowering springs in (which don't look like they did much) and new KYB struts. That's when I noticed the driver side wheel wasn't straight up and down any more. I have "new" polyurethane bushings for the front and rear control arms (they've been sitting for a whole though, copyright date on them is 1987, I was kind uphappy about that when I got them). I was going to put them in when I did the front springs but I couldn't get the bushings to come out with the control arm still hooked to the spindal so I just said **** it. The car was still wandering around before that though. I noticed the wandering started after I replaced the brake pads in the front and a bad hose caused the passenger caliper to seize up.

AlkyIROC

I'm surprised they didn't call the ball joints too. What about the a-arm bushings?

When in doubt, take it to another shop for another inspection.

As mentioned above, it's easier to replace the adjusters than to remove the old ones. If new adjusters are $20 and the shop rate is $60/hour and it takes an hour to free up the old ones to remove them, it's cheaper to just buy new adjusters.

Cheapest route, buy all the new tie rod ends, idler arm and center link from your local auto parts store and replace them yourself. Reuse your adjusters if you can or just buy new ones. Measure the length of each tie rod from grease nipple to grease nipple and set the new ones to the same length so you'll be close to what you have now. Then drive back to the alignment shop to get it all aligned. The caster/camber adjustment is the worst and most time consuming. You need a special tool to hold the top of the strut while it's being adjusted because both adjustments have to be done at the same time. When you go to an alignment shop, ask them if they have the special tool for doing caster/camber on a third gen. It's an adjustable clamp that hooks onto the inner fender and attaches to the top of the strut to hold it in place when the upper bolts are loosened.

Alignment shops make very little money just putting the car on the alignment rack and doing adjustments. They make money by finding worn out parts to replace. Many are more honest about what a car needs than others.

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

I'm getting up early again tomarrow and I'm going to take it to Bulldog tire. I'll ask them about that tool when I call to see if there's a line or not before I go up there.

Because I was so pissed off about this all day I keep thinking about it and I think I believe the guy that someone is probably wrong besides alignment because the car is all over the place but it most certainly isn't everything under there. Like you said, they make their money off replacing **** so he's probably if one piece is bad might as well just replace all of it. Which is also probably why he tells me he replaces pittmann arms all the time. But I'm still skeptical about it since he lied to me.

dennis teichera

I’ll bet your draglink and idler are worn for sure. Tie rods tend to not wear so quickly but are still susceptible to normal wear and tear. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if you really need the items he pointed out. I always change adjuster sleeves, there is nothing more aggravating than trying to set toe with seized sleeves and they only cost ~10/ea so it’s cheap and makes the job much easier. I’d pick up your parts at Napa, use the premium line. The higher end Napa parts are Dana/Spicer and are noticeably higher quality than Moog, TRW, or the other lines available.

Have it aligned at a shop, I do my own alignments as do many in the group I run with but it is a very specialized trade and shouldn’t be attempted by someone asking how to check steering linkage for wear (no offense intended, everyone has to start out somewhere). Getting to within 1 degree as the previous poster suggested is not even close to accurate considering toe adjustments are typically measured in 1/32”. Even having a degree of difference side to side in camber could cause drivability and tire wear issues.

AlkyIROC

I took my race car into an alignment shop last spring after flipping my center link over to drop it down lower. Do tires were toe out after the flip. I rough guessed where straight was so I could drive the car on an off the trailer. The alignment wasn't bad for a guess. I was only out a couple of degrees on both sides.

I changed my spindles over the winter and I see the passenger side now has too much toe out. I'll rough guess it again and take the car in to the alignment shop again in the spring to get it set perfect. I also want to see how close my 4-link alignment turned out. On the alignment rack I can adjust the wheelbase so the diff is square.

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

Oh, I don't think I mentioned it, but last time I had the front of the car up on jack stands I tried moving the wheels side to side with the steering wheel locked and there was almost no play (felt like just enough movement the steering wheel lock let happen). Just figured I'd throw that out there while I was thinking about it.

I'll let everyone know what happens at Bulldog Tire tomarrow.

TexasSilhouette

iTrader: (4)

You need to drive it to the shop to have it aligned, that is all this is for, not intened as a replacement for a proper alignment for god's sake!

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

Alright, I took it to Bulldog and they said the idler arm is bad but everything else is fine (and I specifically asked him about the ball joints too). I went to AutoZone and got a new one for $30 with a lifetime warranty. I have the stock one off except for one bolt but I'll have to finish a little later and hopefully they won't be so busy I can't take it back today.

90Formula-X-F

You had mentioned a specific problem of your car being all over the road. If your car does things like follow the pavement groves and pulls at 65+ it's almost for sure going to pull after it's aligned. The problem will be in the tires.. Just for info

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

Alright, well I was able to get the new idler arm on yesterday. Had to rent a ball joint seperator and I still couldn't get the damn thing off. So I gave up went to return the seperator back and the older guy working there asked me how big of a hammer I used and I told him I didn't know and he suggested a bigger hammer might work so I bought a huge 3lb. blacksmith hammer and boy did it come off quick after that. The stock one was definately worn out. There was NO resistance left in it, I could spin it around freely. I drove the car around for about 30 miles today and it turned MUCH better and when I got it up to 60-70mph (different road from last time though) it didn't wander anywhere near as much last time I had it up that speed, and it was just as windy today as it was last time too. It really didn't wander until a big gust anyway. My 1" adapters came yesterday and my new tires came in today and I got them mounted up on the new wheels and I'm still going to take it to get the alignment checked in the morning before I put the new wheels on.

AlkyIROC

I think I teach that to every new apprentice that comes into our shop. I work on heavy duty so pulling a tie rod off a big truck required a 20 pound sledge hammer. Last week a new apprentice was struggling to remove a tie rod. I told him to hit the knuckle with a big hammer. He started hitting it with a 2 pound hammer. I then said, no go get a BIG hammer. 2 hits with the sledge and it popped right off.

I have an automotive sized pickle fork (proper name for the tool) that attaches into my air hammer. I think I use it about twice a year on the occasional pickup truck that has a steering component I can't get a big hammer on.

Guest

You should align the car with the new tires on.

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

The new wheels are tires shouldn't affect the alignment though. The new wheels have a smooth lip so they won't be able to hang the tool on them.

camarojustin

You should always get the alignment w/ the new tires on!

ling427ttvette

iTrader: (1)

After reading this whole thread, I can see that you know nothing about front suspension and you shouldn't be working on it.

When you check the suspension parts, the steering wheel is supposed to be un-locked. The side to side motion was to check the inner and outer tie rod ends. Usually works best with one person shaking, and another person looking. The mechanic went about it all wrong and just made it look like he knew what he was doing because he knew you know nothing, they thrive on people that don't know much.

And, they can align it with wheels that are smooth on the outside. There are special adapters for them. Put the new wheels on before you get it aligned, once you put the new ones on it will likely mess with the alignment.

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

I do know a little bit about working on the suspension but you'd be right in saying I (obviously) don't know anything about alignments, I've never had one done and never looked into the process and that's why I'm standing there watching what these guys are doing with my car. Yes I questioned the guy at Big 10 about how he did it because that didn't make sense to me but I'm not an idiot and I knew he was full of **** about what was really worn (which was why he got pissy). The guys a Bulldog did have one shaking and one looking so that's good to know that they were doing it right. Guess I'll have to get up a little earlier tomarrow to put the taillights back in and the new wheels on.

dennis teichera

You're alright compuwiz, the last few posters are typical backyard mechanics. They just enough to be dangerous but don't really understand anything at a professional level. Changing your wheels and tires has zero affect on aligment what-so-ever. You could align it with worn out 13" tires and swap to new 20's with no change in alignment.

Guest

Nothing? What if the alignment is done with tires that have been used on a car (like his) that has been run way off camber and worn in that off camber pattern into the tread of the tire, then you change the tire? And there's no way to know the wear pattern of the tires on the car so the simplest way to avoid that is not to align the car with tires you're taking off.

I sure hope you dont consider yourself a professional mechanic, because you arent.

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

Well I didn't have enough time to get the wheels put on before I went so if they start wearing funny I'll take the car back and make them fix it. Anyway, the the right side toe, total tow, and steer ahead were off. The camber and caster is fine on both sides.

ling427ttvette

iTrader: (1)

Nope, I don't understand anything at a professional level when I work in a professional shop.

Some backyard mechanic I am eh?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well then explain to the rest of us how the wheels and tires have anything to do with the alignment. I suppose that the old ones could be dented and have some runout, but in calibrating the machine it should be detected and compensated for. I might also align the car differently if you have a set of 195/75/14’s on the front vs some 275/40/17’s (primarily, more caster, possibly more toe in, and camber would depend on what you're starting with, but these settings would be affected more by what you told me you were going to use the car for), but the actual alignment settings won’t change by changing the tires, no matter how funky the wear is on the tires that you align it on.

The one thing you can do with tires to mess up an alignment is mess with the tire pressures side to side (similarly, a badly bruised tire can have the same effect)

Guest

So if the tire pressure can effect it, imagine what wear can do. There isnt any difference, the loading placed on the suspension can change with offset and the load center of the tire (that can be in a different place if its basically wanting to rest on one edge) so that can mess up the alignment. If there was no concern about what tires or wheels were on the car, then just align it with the front end jacked up in the air.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Tire pressure is only an issue if it’s not the same tire to tire, just like if it wasn’t loaded evenly/the way it’s driven.

Alignment changes with bump and dip so you can’t align it jacked up UNLESS you plan on driving it that way (some drag racers align their car jacked up most of the way to simulate the weight transfer at the track)

dennis teichera

Sorry guys, I went away for the weekend. Allow me to educate you "professionals". First of all, I already had this discussion with another board member but I will go ahead and post in open forum to eliminate the bickering. I am a professional. I worked with Goodyear and Firestone in the late 80's before going to GM for a few years in the early 90's. In 1993 I went to DCX where I specialized and am currently Gold certified in their suspension and brake program. I joined a Ford/DCX dealer in 1999 and did some schooling with Ford again specializing in suspension. I was the only suspension expert in the S.F. region dealing with "lemon cars" and repairing potential lemon issues before they go to that point. I also did some work with Hunter (you so called "experts" may be familiar with that name).

With the formalities out of the way I will try to explain, obviously some are not going to be willing to be educated as they already know everything. First thing to remember is we are not discussing garage alignments here where tire pressure and size are more critical as is the levelness of the garage floor. In a shop with a leveled rack and electronic heads the machine will compensate for any and all variables in wheel run out, tire size differences, worn tires, and even low air pressure. The heads are mounted to the wheel assemble and compensated for each wheel, tire size and condition does not even come into play here. The heads are measuring with electronic signals for the perpendicular ness to the floor, and distances to each of the rear heads for thrust angles. Explain to me how you “experts” think that having worn tires or wheels with different diameters will affect these measurements.

As for the “type” of alignment based only on the type and size of tires? I always talk to the driver first. I have seen way too many guys with no driving experience come in with “R” compounds wanting “performance” alignments as I have had Miata guys come in with track only cars but require OEM rubber and wheels.

I am going to ASSume you meant less toe in and less camber as running more of each hurts performance rather than help it.

Guest

I still say go ahead and align the car with it on jackstands or whatever with the wheels hanging down if it doesnt make any difference what tires are on there.

camarojustin

that's good info, I was actually just reading about this on the net trying to edumacate myself on this subject. It would seem that alot of people doing professional alignments don't really know what they are doing because I've had lot's of places tell me to put the new tires on B4 the alignment.

dennis teichera

A lot of shops prefer the new tires on first not because of the accuracy of the alignment but so that they can confirm it drives straight on the post align road test. If they align it then you put tires on and it pulls right or left they have to determine if it is a tire defect or if they aligned it with a tire pull to begin with. It just simplifies things on their end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

I still say go ahead and align the car with it on jackstands or whatever with the wheels hanging down if it doesnt make any difference what tires are on there.

You still need the suspension at static ride height regardless of what wheels/tires are on it. It is impossible to even come close with the suspension in full droop.

[QUOTE-camarojustin]It would seem that alot of people doing professional alignments don't really know what they are doing because I've had lot's of places tell me to put the new tires on B4 the alignment.[/QUOTE]Most "professionals" today are not suspension experts at all. Anyone can learn to use the new computer alignment machines, they literally walk you through the entire procedure even telling which bolts to loosen and what size wrenches to use. It takes a true craftsman to actually align a vehicle properly, look for older guys in smaller garages. The big chain stores hire lower paid apprentices to the front-end work. Or better yet, find someone local who does them in their garage, it takes a little longer but if you can find someone who can align a vehicle in the garage, I guarantee it will be the best alignment your vehicle has ever had.

Guest

Exactly. So now that you're following along, what happens when the center of the load placed on the suspension moves?

compuwiz1937

iTrader: (17)

Wheels and tires won't change how much load is on the suspension...

dennis teichera

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

Exactly. So now that you're following along, what happens when the center of the load placed on the suspension moves?

As the CoG moves the static height also changes which will both camber in or out and also change toe. You are confusing changes caused by CoG vs. simple static height changes. Adding a different size tire does add any weight to the CoG or cause any suspension movement.

This is easy to prove on an alignment rack; set the vehicle up get it ready for alignment, now make the screen is in an active mode. Try lifting the chassis by the cross member and watch the toe/camber number, now try lifting by the lower control arm at the ball joint- you will see that by lifting at the cross member and unloading the suspension the camber will fall in and toe will follow yet by lifting at the ball joint there is virtually no change (some is expected as the machine is very sensitive).

Guest

Virtually no change because there is a change, and its because the ride height has changed due to the reactive load placed on the a-arm being moved. Where the force is applied from the ground to the tire has an effect on the spring height. I guess you've never seen a car come in with a tire worn so bad from a damaged and never fixed part that there was literally daylight coming through on part of the tread section of the tire, changing the location of the force placed on the suspension and therefore changing ride height. You've already agreed with me the ride height is a factor, there's the answer you wanted to prove it can affect the alignment. Probably not true with most well maintained and relatively close alignments, but in any case its possible to happen.

dennis teichera

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

Virtually no change because there is a change,

Right

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

and its because the ride height has changed due to the reactive load placed on the a-arm being moved.

Wrong, the “virtual” change I am referring to is the change the screen will show when any movement occurs. In this case the movement would be from the actual act of jacking up the vehicle. The .02” of toe change is what I am talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

Where the force is applied from the ground to the tire has an effect on the spring height.

You are talking about drastic changes in wheel offset and wheel offset only. Changing diameter will have no impact on scrub and minimal change with small offset differences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

I guess you've never seen a car come in with a tire worn so bad from a damaged and never fixed part that there was literally daylight coming through on part of the tread section of the tire,

Daylight? No, because if there were daylight showing through the tread then air would leak and the tire would be flat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

You've already agreed with me the ride height is a factor

Yes, changing ride height AT THE SUSPENSION LEVEL, not ride height as a result of larger rollout whether it be from bigger wheels or different tire sizes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmax

there's the answer you wanted to prove it can affect the alignment.

Not quite, but you put up an interesting argument.

Guest

I was talking about between the road contact patch of the tire and the ground. Some people dont understand the definition of maintenance, and when you correct a severe off camber to correct off camber and there's space between the tire tread and ground, well things have moved a bit in the loading area.

Anyway, this is obviously pointless. Go ahead and keep suggesting what you want, and I'll continue to do otherwise as I've seen it have an effect where I've worked.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

No, I wrote that when I really should have been getting some sleep and messed it up. I mostly meant more caster to compensate for the wider, lower profile tires having more of a tendacy to follow ruts/road surface imperfections and more toe in like I said to compensate for the extra force that he wider tires and additional caster will put on the bushings which would tend to cause a slight extra toe out at speed.

And of course I’m saying “more” as in more relative to the same car with the same intended use with smaller tires, not relative to stock alignment which has not much to do with “performance” as in optimum handling.

modaz28

Hey just to let you know I paid about $130 for all new parts on Ebay Motors. Took me about 1hr to get old parts off. But i had a lift and air tools and an
alignment machine.