what will it take to put rack and pinion from 4th gen into my '92 RS?

 

A sawzall, so you can cut the whole front end off and weld it on your car. Other than that, never seen a R&P on these cars yet.

 

Why??

 

At onetime, Hawks thirdgen had a power R&P setup from Appleton Rack & Pinion but I don't see it on the website anymore. All they have is a manual R&P setup.

 

because im tired of effing with 4 tierod ends and all the bullshit parts are worn out on my car and to rebuild it nice cost alot more than a j/y r&p

 

do a

it will cost alot more to put a worn out used pos j/yard r&p in your car than to rebuild the whole front end. Unless you have a sawzall and a welder and a free donor 4th gen, then you could use Nelapse's method. That would be pretty cheap.

 

...you do realize that rack & pinions have inner and outer tie rods right?

As for the swap, do a the topic has been covered many times. - It takes some fairly extensive modifications to maintain a 1/2way decent turning radius.

 

Rack and pinions have inner and outer tie rods, which would make 4 tie rods.

Just keep what you have, it works just fine.

 

where did you read that? you better google search r&p's if it wasn't better then why is it on 4th gens and vettes

 

Are you talking to me?

I only said that what you have "works fine". I never said it was better, I said it works just fine. It's power assisted steering, it works, leave it alone. That's my thoughts on it, you could focus more on pulling more power out of the motor instead of worrying about a rack and pinion.

 

-because the steering linkage stlye on a 3rd gen wouldn't fit
-it was cheaper
-it was lighter
-a combination of the above

If I were you I'd keep my piehole shut; you obviously have no clue and are talking out of your ****. The ONLY real application for this on a 3rd gen is on a drag car to cut weight.

BTW, google this

 

sorry im a a&p aircrfat mechanic and i like to have the best type of part i can afford, i obviously do not know what im talking about, thats why i asked. and btw i do have a donor 4th gen a 96 lt1 im slowy changing over parts to my 3rd thats why i asked, if i could save a dollar i will = no trips to napa , and i do have a sawzall oxy acetylene, and a mig setup pretty much whatever i need in the hangar, i thought TGO for for tech advice not arguments from all the diagrams ive seen r&p's only have outer tie rods. so sorry for ruffleing your feathers

 

I have an A&P too... those credentials mean a lotta nothing nowadays. They might impress someone in the car world, but not the real world.

 

Most racks have inner and outter tie rods.

About 75% of them have replaceable inners, if they dont u rebuild the whole rack.

I would almost care about a swap to rack if i was going for the ultimate liteweight setup, but I havent seen an affordable thirdgen swap that didnt require 4 universals to work lol

later
Jeremy

 

As I said, the largest problem with putting a r&p in these cars is maintaining a semi-decent turning radius. I've read of an odd-ball rack unit that has enough travel, otherwise you have to mod the spindles to move the tir rods closer to the axle centerline.

- Without one or the other you end up with the turning radius of a school bus.

 

Hi,
a guy here in Sweden converted his car to RnP from a Volvo 740 (power assisted by default), but he doesn't use the power steering, just plugged it.

Anyway, he had to use a lathe and make one or perhaps two weldable bushings that he welded to the crossmember. After that he could use the standard mounting holes from the RnP steering assembly. On the drivers side he had to notch the crossmember quite a lot to fit the angled steering knuckle. And he also had to use yet another steering knuckle on the steering shaft to get the correct angle. He also used some sort of device that actually gave him a faster steering motion than stock. Think it's a hotrod device, mounts directly on the steeringshaft.

His car is a dragrace car though. 4 link in the rear etc. It started out as a GTA-88 with 350 TPI, nowadays he's got a very big BigBlock in it.

I have actually bought a RnP from a Volvo 740 myself to do this conversion, even if I'm a little concearned about the turning radius. The reason is that the stock steering assembly in my car needs a serious rebuild because the car is all over the road even though you're not moving the steering wheel. And it is the steering that's my problem. And you get old Volvo cars in Sweden almost for free.

I wanted to save some weight as well so I'll try this out, whenever I get the time. I've got a 7.5 month old son so I'm not working on the TA that much anymore.

 

Most, if not all power rack and pinions wont work on our cars because they do not enough left to right travel in the rack. The steering arms on our spindles are longer than on 4th gens. Think leverage with wrenches, the longer wrench needs more travel to get the same amount of rotation on the bolt/nut.

Our spindles need 6.5 inch's of travel to go full left to right and pack and pinions only have about 5.5 or so inch's of travel. So when the power rack is turned, it hits full lock before the wheel is fulling turned.

There is one rack and pinion made by Flaming River I think. It has the 6.5 inch's of travel, but it isn't power.

Hopefully that explains why it doesnt work

 

I have driven a lot more cars with on-center wear on steering racks than steering gears (since you can adjust the gear to some extent too!). I would never use a junkyard steering rack, it's going to have a lot of miles and a lot of on center wear. Even the junky parts store remanufactured racks only have the seals replaced. GM has notoriously crappy steering racks, my friends 30k mile 2000 4th gen has the classic GM sleepy steering on-center wear developing already.

 

At least someone had the decency to post an appropriate post :thumbup:

 

I've done a lot of research on this and I have found that the 89-97 thunderbird has a power rack with the correct amount of travel, and the 4th gen bump steer kit fits on it. That is the setup I am going with...hopefully it will work out well.

 

The bad thing about the 89+ t-bird rack is that it is metric threaded tie rods and bubble flare/captive o-ring line ends.
The mid 80's t-bird units are standard SAE inverted flare line ends and american threaded tie rod ends, thus easy to hook up and a also easy to mount making them a favortite for swappers. Problem is they're back to a lower travel length, thus require modding the spindles.

 

The metric tie rods aren't that big of a deal. The C4/C5 and 4th gen f-body's use the same thread and the 4th gen uses the same taper on the spindle end. I agree that the ISO flare line fittings are a problem since all the an fittings are either inverted flare or saginaw...but I am working on a solution to that.

 

A decent parts house(not dipcount or vatozone) should have the Gates power steering book. You can look up hoses by end type and configuration. - When I was hawking parts that's how I helped out guys doing swaps.

Thanks for the info on the tie rods. Gives me another option for mine.

 

Glad I coudl help. Actually there are a couple of places here that make power steering and hydraulic lines so that is always an option. I have the rack kind of dry fitted right now. I can't mount my spindles until my coilover kit sells (which is in the classified section in case anyone is interested) so I can buy my new setup. But everything looks like it will fit pretty nice.

 

Bringing this thread back from the dead. So has any progress been made? My steering box is on the way out and I'd like to swap in a r&p. So is the t-bird r&p compatible with the stock pump or do I need to switch that too? And could you post a pic of your mounting brackets? Thanks.

 

Anyone?

 

Basically any rack is compatible with the stock pump, you'll just need the proper configuration lines to hook it up. - The Ford type racks have 2 eyelot mounts, thus making mounting very simple. 2 small pieces of pipe with a 3/4 nut welded in the end works very well.

Again, the major issue is our spindles. The steering knuckle is much longer than typical r&p oriented spindles, thus erquire more travel for the same turning radius. There is no good way to address this, which is why r&p steering is left mostly for drag use.

 

According to this thread the t-bird rack has the right amount of travel. Don't know what the t-bird rack measurements are, but would bump steer or geometry be a problem?

 

bumpsteer and geometry have to be accounted for in your unit mount height and your outer tie rod pivot height.

I haven't checked the travel length of the later t-bird racks. I'll have to check and see what changes were made in what years. I know the early t-bird rack is the same as the foxbody stang rack, thus it's travel length is too short for our spindles. - IIRC we need about 6" of travel to utilize our spindles and maintain a stock turning radius. Personally, the lines are easy, but I work for a hose company.

 

I can bend up some hardline for it with the right fittings so that's no prob. I'll have to grab a rack from the jy and do some test fitting. So as long as I can get the pivot points as close to stock as possible I should be fine then, right? Thanks.

 

basically, yes. Bumpsteer kits allow you to mount the tie rod at the same angle as the control arm.
- hardline will crack, especially without a solid mounted engine, there has to be a flex coupler(hose) somewhere.

 

Just make the lines out of braided line. -an fittings are available just about anywhere. Or just get some rubber hose made at local shop.

 

Sweet, thanks.

 

oh, and if you check the group purchase section, there is a company that is making some drop spindles with a shortened steering arm. Racecraft inc I believe is who it is.

 

lazzerus back from the dead. any progress with a livable turning radius using a power r&p?

 

'89-'97 t-bird racks have the same amount of travel so turning radius isn't a prob with those, not sure how quick it will be though. Anyone know how many turns lock-to-lock?

 

I would run the racecraft spindles over the long travel rack. With that much travel, I'm sure the ratio isn't great on that rack.

As for the lines, if you use AN/JIC hose ends you'll need the proper conversion adapters to screw into the pump and onto the rack.

 

well i thought i would call appleton about one of their power r&p. they can make any ratio you want. and i think shagwell is dead on about racecraft spindles, but they will probably be used to mod & mockup. then they can make the real one. this well be the last build of this car so i am going all out. it will be a street beast with a bad case of roid rage!

 

instead of doing any modifications you could wait until sometime this summer when flaming river told me they would hopefully have a bolt in rak and pinion available for our cars. i talked to one of their reps in november who said they already had the car and expected to start working on it after x-mas and hopefully have it out sometime this coming summer

 

thats a power r&p right? the thought of a manual r&p and 275's make's me want to cry. nope. noway. notta! and who's k member will it fit?

 

thats right, a power rack and pinion. they had no idea on a price yet, but it comes with a bolt in cradle, pump, steering box, rack and pinion and can also come with a steering column. i asked how much for the whole thing for the 1st gen and it was about $1800, and was about $2200 for the 2nd gen. so i would expect the price to somewhere around there when it comes out

 

ooouuuch,ouch,ouch!!!! SON OF A BLEEP!! maybe a quick ratio box wont be to bad after all. wada ya thunk?

 

ok wait a minute. what do you mean it comes with a steering box? i thought that was the part i was getting rid of?

 

You are right their is no steering box, rack and pinion eliminate it

 

get a racecraft k member with rack mounts and get their rack and pinion spindles and then get a pinto rack and you are set.
thats MY opinion.
of course you would have a manual rack, but thats really not that bad unless you parallel park all day long.
once you are over 20 mph, you really cant tell a difference and thats from personal experience (not with a pinto rack but with manual steering in general)
the only thing is you would probably not want to run massive caster unless you were intent on developing strong biceps.

 

That is exactly what I have installed in my car, some of the K-Member have mounts for 4th gen rack and pinion

 

which k-members exactly use the 4th gen R&P? I still want power. stop and go traffic during the weekend cruise with 275's and a aggressive setup would suck. or i'm just a wuss.

 

572 rat that looks like the same setup I have on my project car. Is that a manual or power rack?

 

That is a manual pinto rack from unisteer
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Racecraft does, but you mat want to check around with Spohn, BMR, PA Racing

http://www.racecraft.com/proddetail....d=428300000000

 

that is such a sexy k member.
i want one!
too bad its so darn expensive