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iTrader: (14)

anybody have a pic of these installed in the front? how do they mount and do they work with aftermarket a-arms? any info would be great, thanks

-Phil

i searched around and found crazyhawaiians thread with these, no pics on the car and im a little confused where the assembly goes, on the a-arm or in the k member pocket?

blyth18md

k-member pocket. which is why its kinda difficult to take a picture of them installed.

Dewey316

Yeah, it is hard to take a picture of. The weight jack sits in the k-member pocket above the spring. It should be fine with aftermarket arms, since it sits on top of the spring, so long as the spring can sit in the perch, it shouldn't matter what type of a-arm you have.

GodSpeedGTA

iTrader: (1)

weight jack mounts upside down in the front. This is a PA racing k member.

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iTrader: (14)

cool, thanks for the info/pic. So how does one go about adjusting these? do you have to remove the whole thing to adjust it or is there a way to adjust it with the jack installed in the car?

and do they just sit on top of the spring or is there welding involved? id rather not try to weld in the pocket if i dont have to.

GodSpeedGTA

iTrader: (1)

no welding necessary and fairly easy adjusting. For the front, i just jack the car up by the frame to relieve the spring and then you need a 1/2" ratchet with 1/2" extension and you go adjust up or down.

The rears are even easier. Jack up by the frame again and they basically get close to falling out. You use an allen wrench to loosen the adjuster and then you turn it to adjust almost like a coilover but you dont have that dorky wrench you just do it by hand effortlessly.

I couldnt be happier with the setup, REALLY. Cheaper than coilovers, same concept, 2.5" of ride height ajustability and you can swap the rear springs in 1 min with harder or softer springs and the fronts look like they wouldnt be too hard to do with a spring compressor tool. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND!!
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keep your rubber spring isolators for the front weight jacks if you use aftermarket k member. I have mine but the mechanic fig the weight of the car would keep them from moving and they do for the most part but for saftey as soon as i have to remove the front springs for anything im putting my isolators back in.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

For a (mainly) street car, are the weight jacks worth the extra cost over standard coils? How often do you ever really adjust them? Do they come with a recommended setting, or is up to you to install them, see where your car sets/how they do, then adjust them up/down. Then decide if your spring choice was too hard/soft?

tshack

I am woundering the same thing! more info please

GodSpeedGTA

iTrader: (1)

Ok...lets see here. I think its worth it because you can adjust it as low as you want to basically. If i want it slammed, i can have it that way and in 15 min TOTAL time i can have it back to almost standard ride height. Thats great for shows or meets etc.

As far as height goes they recommend you install them at full height and then adjust to where youd like. I would say go half way and then go up or down. You order your spring lengths and can change them by buying softer or harder springs whenever youd like. I told them that my car was a street car with track action maybe 2-3 times a year. So they picked the stiffness of the springs based on that. The ride is ok, but its def more firm than stock but 3rds are loud and rough anyways no matter what you do.

I think it adds the extra adjustability that i desire. If you just want to lower your car to a specific height and leave it that way then just swap coils. But i plan on eventually getting my car to the point where i see a road course maybe once a month and ill need the adjustability then so why not have it now? (was my thinking) Does also allow you to really fine tune your stance. Its not recommended to cut coils etc... and its pretty iffy too. Screwing it up would be costly.

Btw...GC provides you with eibach springs. My fronts were the red logoed eibachs and my backs were a silver spring (i think eibachs as well) I asked for diff lengths tho front and back so I prob made it a little hard on them.

any other q's just let me know.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

OK...I understand a lower CG would help, whereas height is important for the street (speed bumps, ramped driveways, etc.)...But would the adjustability REALLY make that much of a difference? I mean...We can only go so low, but is the 1.5" lower REALLY that bigof a deal, on the track? I suppose at Pro Competition level, sure...But at the local autocross?

I passed up a cheap (inexpensive) set of strong tie rod adjusters & am still kicking myself, so the iea of weight jacks is really bugging instead instead of standard springs. Don't wanna kick myself over a spring choice, later down the road.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I use an adjustable spring spacer in a different vehicle. Street use with some limited track. They are the best thing since sliced bread and canned beer.

The reason is that they can easily be adjusted for the desired ride height. Not that this is done often. It is that the ride height can be dialed in without the hassle of the 'typical' methods (cut springs, lowering springs, rubber inserts). And, can use an aftermarket spring such as AFCO that allows a wide selection of rates.

Then if the ride height changes (lighter heads, intake, A/c removed, whatever) it can be easily be changed back to where it was, or lower, or higher.

RBob.

Dewey316

Yup, they are awsome. You aren't going to be adjusting them all the time, remeber, adjusting them changes your alignment. BUT, if you have access to scales, you can corner-weight the car, and get it all dialed in. And you use a standard 5" race coil, so springs are CHEAP if you want to change rates.

I would suggest though, get he all-star rear adjusters to use a standard 5" coil in the back also. Just get the front weight jack from G-C.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

All-Sar?

The G-C kit is only the fronts? Not all 4?

blyth18md

x2 thats what im doing. see my fquick for photos.
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They are sold as a set of 4 but the GC kit uses pigtailed rear springs.

GodSpeedGTA

iTrader: (1)

The reason exotics are 4-5" off the ground is C of G and its very important in reducing and almost eliminating body roll. I dont want to do autoX, I want an actual track car (sebring, atlanta motor speedway etc.)

All the questions about how important such and such is, is all up to you! Thats the question your trying to answer then just ask yourself. You know the pros and cons so if you feel good about it get some, if not dont.

I recommend GC highly, great product and cheaply priced compared to anyone's coilover setup.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

But...What is All Star? I found a company called Al Star that sells weight jack bolts, but nothing but the threaded bolt itself.

Dewey316

http://www.pitstopusa.com/detail.aspx?ID=23985

That is what you are looking for. You will want to get somewhere between a 9"-11" rear spring, depending on the rate and how low you want to go, etc.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Thanks!

Now...Why were they saying GC front, Allstar rear?

According to the listing for those Allstar ones...

"Hidden Adjustable Spring Spacer allows racing front springs to be used on street stock cars where weight jack bolts are not allowed."

But....Shouldn't all 4 of ours being the same, as far as the mounts go? Couldn't you just use 4 of those Allstars?

Dewey316

No the fronts are different. YOu want to use the G-C stuff in the front, it sits in the k-member pocket correctly, and you can get to the adjuster on it. It needs to sit on top of the spring in front, because of the way our a-arms, etc. are designed.

The reason for using the all-star rear adjuster, is the ability to use generic 5" dia. rear springs. The G-C rear adjuster is just a coil-over sleve to work with pig-tailed rear springs. That route is fine, but springs are more expensive, and I beleive the G-C adjuster is also more expensive. I also like the way the all-star one sits on our housings, it think it is a little more "sure footed".

If you are building in all this adjustment and so forth, I can assume that you might want to be able to easily change spring rates at some point, and using a standard 5" race spring makes that super easy and cheap.

Guest

Weight jackers are not for raising and lowering the car. There is some bad info here.
The talk about lowering the CG for track use, then rasing the car back up for street use? Wrong. WJ'ers are designed for:
1) getting your x weights accurate for the most even cornering loads left and right turns.

2) changing coil rates but allowing the SAME EXACT chassis stance height.

3) keeping the chassis height maintains the intended roll centers

4)keeping the chassis height maintains the proper alignment (However, alignment needs to be rechecked for bump and contact patch every time the suspension roll couple is changed. The car will roll differently and the contact patches change- they will need to be reset with spring changes.

5) If extended balljoints are allowed (Monoballs, etc) then the WJ'ers are good for reseting the chassis height after the adjustment of roll centers via balljoint height and arm positions.

Guest

the above mentioned post is for basically road racing but some carries over to circle track also.

However, circle track is much more conplex when it comes to use of weight jackers and or coilovers.

Circle track yeilds the use of x weights increasing in the RF to LR diagonal generally (but not always) for corss weigh loading on a lower stagger wheel (smaller diameter wheel). The extra load weigh onto it wil help drive the car straight down the straightaway rather than it pulling more radically to the left when driven under throttle.

the x weight also tightens the car going into and out of a corner and allows chassis dynamics to keep the inside wheels loaded via chassis stance or better known as chassis "rake"

Unlike road racing cars, circle track cars also play with uneven coil rates on either sid eof the car and the use of weight jackers aids in reseting the chassis rack. Here's where the suspension gets a little tricky, the uneven coil loads (lets take the solid rear axle for example) will cause the roll center to migrate its pivot point laterally favoring the side of the stiffer spring rate.
We actually develop "yaw" into the pitch and roll of the body having the nose roll center down and left and often the rear RC mid and right (there are MANY other factors that come into play with dynamic loading that can help AND also can hurt this roll couple of the front and rear.

Basically, weight jackers on a RR car is just for maintaining chassis height with different coil rate changes. For your average street car, the add weight of the weight jackers is really pointless and the chassis is better balanced once through coil shims.

GodSpeedGTA

iTrader: (1)

I disagree. Ground Control says themselves that they allow you to "customize the ride height of your vehicle" Im not disagreeing with your additional info on racing but you specifically said its not for raising or lowering your car and it is. For the avg. person, not hardcore racing the GC system is a cheaper alternative to coilovers.

Maybe you are simply meaning that its not like air ride where you adjust the ride height rather constantly and you pretty much select your stance and stick with it. In that case, yes they do serve that purpose well. But if you ever wanted to take it back to stock height you could and have it realigned of course. You are paying for fine tuned adjustability rather than spacers or cutting coils which can be extremely unsafe if not done correctly.

Additionally, there is no reason you couldnt have a set measurement for street and then take it to the track and lower it down to further stabalize the car, raise it back up to your measurements and not hurt your alignment. Weight jacks might be used for other purposes, but that doesnt mean they cant serve that purpose. Wrong.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Monoballs? Whats the difference in those?

Guest

Monoballs are simple take apart and hieght adjustable ball joints that are user rebuildable. they are generally used alot in upper front control arms but can also be used in the lower a-arms to regain geometry lost in lowering and recover some of the loss of front roll center height.

Another thing that can be done if a coil over is used rather than a conventional spring is to relocate the A-arm mount ears higher (basically reworking the suspension mount points)

Godspeed- I explained why its not good. Tell us why you think it IS good if you disagree- give me facts. Do you know anything about roll center heights and lowering proportions related to roll couple? Your front goes down much quicker rate. You start playing with that even 1/2" and you'll throw you cars balance so badly off.

You are misinterpeting what GC is saying. They claim exactly what you wrote BUT they are not claining you can simply dial them around for multiple give ride height desires. they claim exactly what I wrote about maintaining a SPECIFIC ride height with coil rate changes.

DM91RS

Never thought about it put that way. I just always considered them to set the corner weights.

Thanks Dean, you slapped the back of my head....lol

Guest

This is really bad tech advice. People, do not buy these with this intent. This will harm your performance. You can not have multiple ride heights with one coil spring without suffering from big performance loss at one of the two settings. It is physically impossible IT CAN NOT BE DONE period.

DM91RS

Also how could you have the alignment be correct with those two settings?

Guest

We all get brain farts

The fronts are rarely used to set adjustments because of the fact how the front roll centers and bump changes so drastically. The rears are what are always changed in the heat of battle because the rear end is less affected with geometry changes.

You start altering front heights and you will need to ge the car back on a rack with turnplates and re-bump the front contact patch.

The only time I mess with fronts is for throwing tricks at the car with bi plias race tires with very short runs to ge the car up to speeds quicker on colder and generally non-scuffed non heatcycled tires. They are much tighter when you go out just on stickers, then they free up when cycled and scuffed.

Guest

Yes that is correct, but he did state changing it then changing it back I think. So even if he did that effort, the alignment is the minor problem.

What happens with roll centers on the front of a 3rd gen is it does not go down at a linear rate like the rear of a 3rd gen does. THe front RC and CG go down at different rates and the roll couple leverage goes to hell quickly.

Not only does the leverage increase rapidly, but it also migrates laterally. WHat does this all equate to? Basically let me give you a hypothetical answer because exat answers are pretty complicated to calculate withut using a roll center program to show whats going on with roll pitch, leverage, yaw, and travel.
A basic example so peoplke can kindof understand in laymans terms:

Cg (Center of gravity of the car)is at lets say 18", and roll center is at 6" at stock ride height. You have a 36mm swaybar and 550 lb coils. Your roll rate can be at about 3* @ 1g lateral acceleration.

NOW- you lower that car 2 " ride height with the same 550 lb coils. you now have a cg of 16" (down 2" also) but the front RC just went into the dirt at about 2" off the ground (aprox 4" lower- this is not exact, but close enough for this example of what really happens). You roll couple between the front and rear just inclined greater with that 2" aditional drop and the roll couple leverage on the CG now yaws and pitches the inside rear weight over the outside front lifting the rear inside and massively increasing roll travel on the outside nose. You now have for example an 5*roll rate @ 1g lateral acceleration on the nose of the car. Godspeed, the *** end of you car just passed you up.

Now, you raise the coil rate (lets not talk about tire contact patch issues- thats a whole 'nother novel) and put a 750 lb coil up there and you have just rebalanced the cars roll degree back to 3* but have lost mechanical grip through too tight a suspension trying to bandaid the roll couple problem.
The bigest problem now is you have to make such drimatic changes to the setup to get things to react because you now have a masked problem that you can not get any other setting to work proportionately.

Guest

Now with this all kindof explained in laymans terms, it is why I could get my little lightweight V6 Camaro to handle so damn well because the proportioned roll couple I played with both front and rear yeilded less leverage from the lighter more balanced CG of the car acting upon it. In other words, I could run my car much lower than you V8 guys and not suffer the concequences. My CG was lower, but along with that I had a longer leverage arm on the roll couple but the less weigh affected me less and I could get away with it and still have a decent ride to boot. A v8 in my car would have to have about 1100 lb coils rather than the 800's I have.

Then the rears with the (What I always preached)"progressive" rates I love help couple and yaw the roll axis combined with the lower rear roll center I fitted the car with. It was all one big marraige and the rates I have and ride heights I did would only work for a V6 car (in mostly stock proportions weigh wise- yes, alot of cutting and fabricating and lightening can get a V8 there also, but it would take alot of altering and loss of creature comforts.)
Those progessive rates would be low for ride quality than the leverage would build and migrate to the outside of centerline and quickly build the wheel rate to promote rotation while remaining tight leaidng into it. the looser it built with bodyroll, the more roll understeer it also promoted to counter act and come off the corner not tail happy. In other words, I was nicely tight in and out but the nose of the car could steer like a jetfighter and the weigh moment would build so fast to rotate the tight rearend but keeping it snug.

Its not just what cha got, but how ya set it.

edit: ps- there's that Video floating around of my autox run. In it towards the end of the run you hear a guy comment about how the car slightly drifited though one of those last turns when my street tires were going away from excessive heat. You can physically see my right rear tire steer inwards to correct the cars attitudde. My point? If I played with weighjackers just to raise andlower my car it would throw all these setting to hell

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

So would this be a good thing to get if I autocross the car with a litle street driving? I thought it would be good to be able to adjust the corner weights as I take out things like the AC and I change to lighter parts like aluminum heads or if I take out the back seats.

How bad is the corner weight of or cars when they were bone stock? I understand it is different for every car due to different options and what not but I was hoping for some general numbers.

Also, how many "quantities" would I need when I order the weight jacks? Is one quantity 4 weight jacks?

blyth18md

Not corner weights but will give you an idea of stock front rear bias.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...t-invoice.html

krisb410

iTrader: (9)

Link to your fquick would be nice!!!!!!!!

blyth18md

Since I screwed up and made multiple posts it didn't add my signature which contains my fquick..but never mind that I'll just add pictures to make it easier on everyone.

Not my car.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Well, I scored myself a set of GC rear weight jacks & 2 sets of springs. 150 lbs & 225 lbs

At the highest turn, could my car be set at stock height? Or should I just order the fronts now (instead of later) & do all 4 at once together? Any spring rate recommendations? My DD, but I don't mind a "harsh" ride at all. I plan on using the 225s for the rear, not the 150s.

I still have stock WS6 springs up front (all around actually), so its setting at stock height. Ground to fender lip, 26" front, 27" rear.

racing geek

iTrader: (5)

Keep us updated of how the install goes and your impressions of the set up once your car is using them.

pearl_iroc

do they sell the fronts alone? i want to drop the front on my car but on the site (link below) it seems the only sell sets of 4, i have sent the a e mail about just 2 front one but got no response

http://www.ground-control-store.com/...hp/II=20/CA=86

pearl_iroc

ohh also i found in another post, a link to this site (link below), has any one used these?, and does anyone think these would be a straight pop in on the front of our cars? im not sure the diameter on the top plate is big enough to fit our spring. opinions?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/5983...ght-Jacks.html

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Their site needs work, no doubt there but...

http://www.ground-control.com/gccamcat.htm

What's cool about the front setup, it only takes jacking the car up & a 1/2" socket & ratchet to adjust it. Rear only requires jacking it up & an allem wrench to loosen the set bolt, then turn the adjuster by hand.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I MIGHT get them in tomorrow. If not, it'll be Monday before I can put them in. Just not sure if, at it's highest adjustment, it'll set level or too low in the rear. My front springs are still the stock WS6 springs.

If the rear sits too low, I'll put my stock WS6 rear springs back in, order the fronts & do all 4 at once. Just need to decide on a front spring rate. Any suggestions people? Daily driver, but harshness doesn't bother me in the least so........Think of it as a track ONLY car!

Dewey316

Then you realise that once you get it set, you never end up touching it. I haven't even looked at mine in a couple of years.

As for the spring rates, it will depend on what rear rates you are going to run, also how you like the car balanced, and what ride hieght you are setting it at etc.

Chances are with the 225# rear springs, you are probably going to be in the 800#-850# range, maybe higher, maybe not, depending on a lot of other factors.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

What would fit our cars better? 5" or 51/2" OD?

pearl_iroc

im not sure, what size would be best, it doesnt say on there site what size the actual plates are either, only the bolt is 6 inches and 1 1/8 thick

I H8 WWD

iTrader: (5)

I need to know the size of the GC WJ's. How tall are they all the way lowered and all the way heightened. This will help me in figuring out what spring sizes I need for my planned 2" F/R drop (using drop spindles in the front). I plan to set it so my car sits at its lowest when the GC WJ's are set to their lowest, but would also like to know its heightest point as well. Thanks guys. Pictures of the measurements would be nice but not needed.