I was watching the powerblock a few years ago and they were talking about subframe connector install. They said to postion the jack stands behind the front wheels so the front portion of the car will will almost "hang" to put the bow back in the car. Dunno if this make sence but they say from a car sitting it will bow in the middle under factory stance. So by positioning the jack stands in the manner it will "bow" it back. Then weld up. How have many of you guys installed them? This sound about right? Its kinda vague what I watched cause this was a few years ago.

 

That will only help if the chassis is already bent & a cheap way out of doing it while hoping you did it right. Otherwise you are inducing an unneeded bend & locking it in when you weld the SFCs in.

If you suspect your chassis is bent, take it to a body shop. Have them put it on a frame machine & check it out first.

 

Dumb idea

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...-subframe.html


https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...rs-solved.html

 

Vetruck in yout first link postions the jackstands exactly in the positions they were talking about on powerblock. The cars neverbeen wrecked. Just no one really talks about the proper ways. Just jack em up weld em in. Definitly not how i'm going to do it. I guess just support the frame in potion show'd in first link and make sure level (rr with lr) and (rf with lf). Simple enough.

 

The "proper way" is on a drive-on lift with the car sitting on all 4 tires. As long as the suspension is at full compression, you should be fine. Even if that means the rear axle on jack stands & the front a-arms on jack stands. Just make sure the car is fully on to the suspension, on all 4 corners.

 

 

I did ramps in the front and stand uder the axle tubes, plenty of room.

Though for safety I always jack up the front once on the ramps and turn one of them around backwards. No way it can roll off.

 

frame rack.

 

I was watching an episode of "Street Customs" where they were chopping the top off a new Challenger and they put subframe connectors on and they made sure the car was sitting on the suspension before they put them on.

 

On the tires removes any mistakes you may make in having the chassis properly aligned but as mentioned elsewhere if the chassis is bent out of shape you're going to fix it into that shape. On the tires though, you're going to fix the chassis into a position of constant stress anyway, because the car bends as its loaded with all the other parts and set on its tires.

 

Wrong.

Lets go over the "what if's?"

What if the tire pressure is uneven?

What if the spring rates are old sagging and uneven?

What if gas shock pressures are uneven?

What if preload is inadvertently torqued into a swaybar endlink?
What if the 20+ year old chassis is suffering from metal fatigue and has torque twist?

What if you have a bent suspension part somewhere and you do not know this at the time of welding in SFC's?

What if the alignment setting are uneven and the tire footprints are putting unknown x-weight into the chassis?

What if you have a bad bushing on one corner of the car causing loaded deflection of the suspension part that later when corrected causes the chassis to be preloaded with x-weight from SFC's welded in this way?

WHat if I keep this going...... You see my valid points so far? how many more do I need to list?

Put the chassis on jack stands that are leveled- bypass ENTIRELY the suspension because it most always has flaws on older vehicles as well as the chassis is suffering from fatigue and most always bent.

DO NOT PUT THE CAR LOADED ONTO THE TIRES.

Dean

 

In laymens terms, sitting on the tires load the suspension points of the car...but unevenly. You want the chassis loaded fron the suspension points of the car onto 4 solid even levels jack stand pads.

Sitting on the tires and suspension in order to load the chassis suspension points yeild too many unwwanted variances.

 

Well as I said, on the tires removes any mistakes you might make putting the chassis in a properly aligned (and loaded) condition, for example stands that are not level or not at the point where the load is actually being transmitted to the body. Never said it was ideal, I dont think there is an ideal method short of stripping the body to a shell.

 

While all of that may apply in a 110% PERFECT world, there is no such thing short of a perfectly level shop with a perfectly level chassis hoist, to eliminate all of that. In other words.....The closest the common man could ever come to it might be something like a body shops frame straightening machine.

And you will not convince me that 99% of the cars that have SFCs installed by the method that I proposed, which is what every single manufacturer tells you to do, is the wrong way to do it. It is not the wrong way.

Is this your NASCAR world? NO. This is the common mans world. What do you want everyone to do? Build a building. Install a chassis machine that can stretch/pull/push the cars chassis to 100% perfectly square. Strip every part of their car down to a bare sell? And THEN weld in their $150 (ish) SFCs?



Do put your car on it's suspension.
Do install your SFCs as the manufacturer tells you to.
Do not listen to somebody on the internet trying to tell you otherwise.

 

In short

Dean shows the ideal situation to have them installed

Stephen represents the common, more realistic, installation method

 

The only correction I would make to your quote is "Stephen represents the common, more TYPICAL installation method"

The link posted shows where I address the concerns of typical installations and show a realistic method on how to easily level jack stands and set a chassis onto them- I also address how to further jack pressure into the chassis to straighten any twist fatigue prior to SFC installs.

Stephen, I really dislike typing against you here, I do not try and single you out- I try and post fatual helpful knowledge to help people and I try and point out misinfo on here so people do not accidently or onadvrtantly follow other people lack of knowledge and mistakes.

IF in fact anyone would like the best potential in a car's ultimate handling and even tire wear ("handling" INCLUDES just simply driving the car down a straight road with groceries in the back- handling includes ride quality) and allowing the suspension to be best 'balanced with even pressures ditributed on all four tires best of possible? then they will follow the suggested path I list or some type of variance they may come up with getting all four of those suspension mounts symetrical on the chassis.

Note: Stripping the car to a shell would be a very difficult task to straighten a bent chassis because you loose the leverage of the overall vehicle weight reating on the jack and jack stands to flex a bent chassis sheel straight. Hard to do without weight leverage on a bare shell.

Some people get it, most people do not.
The scary part is people who think they get it and spew false information.

Someday I hope all of you reading this will grasp the concept of vehicle dynamics and you will look at something like what Stephen just posted aboe at me laughing and will realize just how ignorant he is. I am not picking on him, he is making himself look foolish, I am merely presenting facts and drawing to be helpful to anyone looking to understand this information.

 

And Dean shows his true colors once again. His constantly abusive posts towards others is getting old.....Sad. Really sad.

I am not foolish. I am REALISTIC. I tell people what it actually possible to be done. I don't tear every idea down & make it sound impossible for something to be accomplished, because it isn't.

I've said it MANY times about installing SFCs......Take your car to a body shop first. Pay the small $$ to have a car put on a frame machine & have it checked out, before you do anything. No sense in locking the chassis in to a crooked stance by installing SFCs, in case it needs straightening first.

 

I have said nothing abusive, I have stated facts.

Stephen, how about you address my "What if's" please?

How is the straightened chassis then resting on a tweaked suspension going to help after you spend your $$ to get your chassis straightened and the leverage wheight of the vehicle flexes to a bent xweight position resting on uneven suspension parts and tires?

Really Stephen, I would like a mature answer to this realistic question?

How can I say this any more factually and politely- You're wrong.

 

Your "What ifs...."..... I did address them. Sort of stripping EVERYTHING, you cannot eliminate them. Nor would a loose/over tight nut, like you suggested, affect anything full of a full on, 110% race car. Even then, that would onld be felt by or effect a Professional level driver, who needs that .5mph or .01 second improvement.

This site is 99% enthusiasts in street cars. Te professionals who might even care, would not be coming to TGO for advice. They already have a paid crew tat handles that anyways.

You have to start out with a straight, strong foundation. The chassis. Then build out from there. You can tweak all the attached components all you want. But it is all pointless without the strong, straight foundation. Build from the bottom(inside) out, not outwards in. That would be likely doing the paint first, then doing the body work.

I am not wrong. You claim to be a Professional NASCAR crew chief, but you sure are ignoring the difference between the real world & "your" NASCAR pit. Get out in the real world & you'll quickly realize that what I proposed is the realistic way to approach it. Who has the ability to check cross-weights, etc., or even cares, nor would it effect their results. There is such a thing as overkill, which is exactly what you were proposing.