Maximilian

For handling performance purposes, I am looking for cheap components, I really am a novice in cars, (aside from a lot of books, wikipedia, a gear head brother, and several hours of top gear) I'm 15, and i have had very little guidance (gear head dad died, step dad knows less than I do about cars). So really I guess what I want to know is, what is the best value method for handling performance upgrades. I will probably have a 87 firebird with a good old 350 in it, and a t5 manual trans. Cheap speed ideas would be appreciated as well.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Well you already have a good platform. Springs are cheap, moog 5664s up front and moog 5665s in the rear, cut 3/4 coil up front (half coil if you go with a howe .5" taller ball joint) and a full coil cut from rear (may have to do as much as 1.5 rear). While these are out replace your a arm bushings with poly. Get a set a couple swaybars from the junkyard, 34 and 36 front, and 21 and 24 for the rear. You need these to tune the balance, bigger does not mean better. Save up for shocks, you really want koni yellows. Better to just buy these once. Save up for the absolute widest set of wheels and tires you can find. A cheap way of doing this may be to get a set of 17x11s (corvette wheels) and buy the stickiest 315s you can. Watch craigslist, things like this show up. Fix the geometry where it needs it, like make sure the panhard is level and rear axle is centered. Use relocating brackets to level the rear LCAs.
Set the camber negative, 0 toe. Get a proportioning valve and adjust it so that you actually have rear brakes. Lastly: start doing events, time attack, autocross, etc. Only when you do this will you start to see what matters and what doesn't.

Don't blow your money on all of this painted tubular crap that other members with slow cars will suggest.

Maximilian

just one question, what is cutting coil? is that inches?

Maximilian

Is that what you have? Where did you get yours?

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

Cutting coils is just that, you cut a certain amount of the coil, out of the coil spring.



If you look at this spring, based off of what Pablo said above, you will want to cut 3/4 of a coil off of the front ones and 1 to 1.5 off of the back ones.

I also agree with what Pablo said. Looking back at the items I have purchased over the 15 years I have owned my car, I have wasted a ton of money. I am very much in to turning, straight lines do not appeal to me any more. For "inexpensive" handling I would to the wheels and tires as suggested, although 9.5" wide rims with 275s would be cheaper than 11" wide rims with 315s. Replace the bushings in the front a-arms, bushings in the rear lower control arms, bushings in the panhard bar, rear lower control arm relocation brackets, panhard relocation bracket, subframe connectors, and high quality shocks/struts (Konis hands down). Then once you get good and have money burning a hole in your pocket you can lower your car and go with adjustable rear lower control arms, adjustable panhard bar, adjustable torque arm, etc.

Maximilian

as far as rims, do you think these will work?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/17-x-...#ht_1127wt_967

92Firebug

probably not...look for something with 5x4.75 bolt pattern, 0 offset, and 4.5" spacing...hope this helps!

btw, look for some good brakes too...i am thinkin about Brembo all around on my car.

Maximilian

what about these
They Don't have a 9.5 inch but they do have a 9 inch. http://www.performanceplustire.com/p...elDataID/69908

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

All that talk about getting Corvette wheels, yet nobody mentioned that they will not fit until you buy the adapter to make them fit.

Take the cost of the Vette wheels + the cost of the spacers & buy just some wheels that fit right the first time without all the extra lug nuts.

Unless you buy replica Vette wheels, then you can buy those in an offset that fit without the adapters.

Before you do anything regarding lowering or fitting wider tires, take the time to measure your car. I've seen bone stock cars at stock height with the rear axle off to one side by 1". An Adjustable Panhard Bar will fix that & practically be needed to start fitting real wide tires like 315s or larger.

Guest

I've seen how close it is trying to tuck 17x9.5" wheels up front, so I'm sure a 17x11 won't work for the front. And forget trying to put 315s on 9.5s.
If you want low-cost 17" wheels with an aggressive look, a low price, and a great fit, check out Cragar's 397 in a 17x9" with zero offset. You can fit 275/40 tires on those.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Hah. You're sure huh? I happen to have both 17x9.5 SS wheels with kumho victoracers (those are tires for people that turn) and a set of CCW classics, 17x11 up front 315 hoosier R6s, 17x12 out back. I call the 17x9.5s my "pizza cutter" wheel set because they look so dang skinny compared to what you see in my signature.
For not fitting, my 17x11s seem to fit. No, they don't just fit without a few mods but you are modding your car already. So if you are afraid of that maybe you shouldn't be modding your car in the first place.

You can see those 17x11s on the front in my signature.

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

What is the bs your running on those 11s up front? Are they direct fit wheels or use adapters? Do you have full lock to lock turning without rubbing?

Guest

Pablo, you're trying to weasel-word your way around the fact that they don't tuck. Sure, 4x4 pickups get away with that, but it is technically illegal.
Your pic is from an angle and distance that hides it somewhat, and you may have even distorted your fenders so that they're no longer the stock original shape and curvature. I'm not referring to rolling the lips, we all do that.
Do a front view and a top view, from about 24". Show us the truth about the fit.
18x10.5s barely fit because the struts are inclined in at the top. Yours must be technically out.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I have full lock to lock turning. Click the link in my signature and tell me how I negotiate the center hairpin without it. You will not be able to run these without cutting some plastic out of your wheel well and giving some love taps to the inner aft part of your fender.

Ronjonn, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I was supposed to follow some rules you've made up. If you want to get into legality we can have a long conversation about how nearly every activity in the United States has been legislated to the point where you cannot even leave your house without breaking a law. Forget about modifying your car, technically most modifications violate federal law. Never mind that I never made any claims as to if the wheels stuck out or they didn't. You decided to have that argument on your own.
But to answer your question, here are more picts. It looks fine to me, and if you want a thirdgen that handles, this is the way to do it. I don't think you will find anyone on this forum that will beat me in a pure handling contest but I would love anyone to prove me wrong.



These wheels do not fit without mods so if that scares you, stay with pizza cutters.
BTW, I can tuck the rear wheels more (I have the room, the car is minitubbed) I probably will soon.

Drkhrse89

iTrader: (1)

OP if you are planning on doing some shopping you will be able to find all 4 wheels/adapters, used of course, to get you up and running, for pretty inexpensive. Pablo's car is purpose built, and from the looks of it done right. If you are looking for a daily driver, that is probably not the way to go. If you are looking for an auto-x/road race car then 315s are going to be the only way to go. The 275s can stick, but not as well as the 315s. The rims you posted above will fit your car, but you will need 4 2" wheel adapters to make them fit right. That is going to run you $200 brand new, for good quality ones. You will be able to find them cheaper used, if you do some shopping. Tires are going to be completely up to you, new is going to be the way to go and those will run quite a bit. On a side note, you can get a 9" wide rim to fit 275s, I don't know how much stretch is going to be involved but they will fit.

As BlackenedBird said above an adjustable PHB might be necessary, if you looking at the back of your eventual car you will be able to see if the rearend is sticking out further on one side or the other. If that is the case you will, without a doubt, need an adjustable PHB. Otherwise just stick bushings in there for a less expensive modification.

Just to let you know, I was in almost the same situation as you are in, when I was your age. My father passed away at 13, and I did not have a step father. My dad was a massive gear head, he actually owned a 1970 Chevelle LS6 454 convertible when he was younger. Everything I have learned is through reading here and asking other gearheads about stuff. No question is a dumb question and it is better to be over prepared than under prepared. Even with my knowledge, I will still ask simple questions like how to properly jump a fuel pump so I don't wreck anything.

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

Since the 4th gens came stock with 275s on 9" rims & GM had to warranty those, you can be sure they are a good fit without any stretching. GM would not have done any stretching & done anything that would have caused them to shell out $ for warranty work.

I'm running 275s on 9" wheels up front for years now on my 3rd gen & no bad wear issues either.

Maximilian

can i cut coils myself, or should I take it to a machinist or what?

BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

Cut them yourself, just DO NOT use a torch. Heat is the enemy. Use a 1/8"-1/4" cutoff wheel on a 3.5" grinder. I've cut mine in the past & always had them standing in a 5 gallon bucket of cold/cool water with only the top sticking out. Maybe it was overkill, but my coils stayed cool & that is the goal. Keep them cool.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

you can cut the springs with a hack saw if you have too, it will take a while, but its cheap if you dont have access to other tools.

As Pablo is saying, wider wheels, and good shocks (koni yellows, about 700 bux for all four) will be a good start. if its a street oriented car, you may not want to use the 11" wide fronts, you can use something smaller. If its more race orientated, or a weekend warrior that you dont have to drive everyday, sure, get the biggest meats you can stuff under there. the largerst you can "fit" on the rear is a 17x11, its requires a little work, but nothing like what is needed for a 12" rim, like Pablo, myself and a couple other people are using in the rear. Front, 9.5 is the largest common size, 11 is about the max, not a perfect fit with a 17" wheel, but damn close. With a 18" wheel, you have a little more clearance, but a little work may be needed to keep the tires from getting into the fender, especially in the back of the wheel well.

After that, you should replacing suspension bushings and worn out steering parts. On a buget, you can use the 1le rubber front bushings, or poly ones. Delrin bushings are available from global west, and are probably the best option for a stock front control arm, but they come at a price. Rear arms can again be the 1le rubber, but thats it for the stock arm, poly in that location is not the best. Panhard is not as critical, again rubber and you can probably get away with poly.

These cars can benefit from bracing certain areas, Subframe connectors can be a great help, and a steering brace (wonder bar) can also help. At the very least it will help strengthen the front steering box area and help prevent stress cracks that are common on cars with larger wheels. IF you search the boards a bit you will find more.

The Shiny aftermarket tubular parts have their place, they can save weight, and will sometimes have bushing, design options, and adjustability thats just not feasible with factory parts.. the issue is that fabricated parts have weld joints, stresses and such that can possibly fail due to manufacturing defects or damage, or jsut fatigue. Factory parts are made to be strong and beefy, so the odds of breaking a factory front control arm or k-member is very slim, even if you plow into a curb. Something to keep in mind.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

i have done mostly every suspension mod possilbe besides coil overs and such but...

first thing i would do thats cheap, is to replace most of the suspension bushings.... after 20 plus years of use they are dying for a change... no need of trying to upgrade with worn suspension bushings... you can get a kit that has nearly all bushing at spohn for 220.. its poly so you will get more road noise becasue they are harder than rubber...

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...Total-Kit.html

second SFC's imo are a must on these cars... these cars flex like nobodies business.. improve handling and reduce chassis flex by a great margin... but they are not cheap... around 200 bux for a decent set..... they get rid of alot of interior squeak as well

since your on a budget i would get kyb gr2 struts and kyb gas adjust shocks in the rear... its 172 plus shipping at tirerack.. thats currently what i have.. its a big improvement over stock for sure but im switching to koni yellows all around soon.. but for what your doing the kybs will be fine...

http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/s...87&autoModClar=


http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/s...87&autoModClar=


then once thats in order i would get a wonderbar (50 bux at spohn also)

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...onder-Bar.html

then i would get a strut tower brace... (i felt this mod more than the steering brace)
depending on what intake you have thats the bar you should get... they are no more than 100 dollars for a 2 point brace....


all that is about 850 dollars..... i dont know if thats budget for you but you should have a much better handilng car....


obviously you can get more involed with tubular pieces sfcs and relocation brackets and such but those are expensive and really not need unless your pushing power and want a really good handling and sturdy car with strong chassis..

Maximilian

Thanks everybody, I got all the info I wanted and more than I expected. This is a great forum!