I've done enough reading on here to figure out a couple of things, but I just want to see if I have everything right before I blow a bunch of money on the wrong mods. I don't race my car, it's strictly a cruiser, so I'm not looking for racing quality hardware. Having said that, I want my car to last forever, and I don't mind spending a few extra dollars up front to make sure that it happens.

So with that in mind...

Do I need a Wonderbar? I recently had my idler arms replaced and my gearbox adjusted. Steering has been very tight and reponsive since. As far as I can figure, a Wonderbar is an insurance policy to make sure it stays that way. Am I right, or just wasting money?

Car handles fine at cruising and highway speeds. Just put in struts and shocks. When driving at slow parking lot speeds, and making tight turns or backing up, the creaking is horrible. You can hear and feel it through the whole car. Will a good set of SFC's fix that? And I assume weld on is a huge advantage over bolt on, right? Should I be looking into different or additional hardware to fix the creaking also?

This one's kind of weird. Even with the new shocks in back, sometimes over bumps, I'm still hearing some kind of weird noise from the rear. It's hard to describe...some sort of rattle. It doesn't seem to affect handling or stability, but it's pretty friggin' annoying! Any ideas on that? I know struts have mounts, but do shocks?

I'm not looking for major performance mods...I'm just looking to fix what's broken while staying as true to original as possible.

And of course, opinions on manufacturers would be welcome...thanks and Happy Thanksgiving!

 

Houston is a hard city for steering boxes and vibration. Between the steep hills in all the malls, gas stations, house driveways, it seems like the cars are always being tweaked at an angle. And then you get the concrete roads with holes and divider lines all over the place.

1) Wonderbar.....Absolutely purchase this. I've got the TDS one and it fits like heaven. Has an extra mounting hole that the others don't have. (On the swaybar and the extra on the frame itself) And no install problems with dual fan cars like some other brands have.

2) The creaking and groaning while backing up is hard to say over the internet. Could just be that the alignment is off. Stock alignment specs will guaranteed wear out your tires anyways. The recent cold snap tends to lower tire pressure. I have to turn my steering wheel all the way to full lock when I back out of my parking spot. With the Wonderbar, no problem. Before the Wonderbar, it would have a different feel at full lock. Like you were pushing the limits or something.

3) Rattle in the back end is probably the hatch motor. They're adjustable for height and width. The width is mostly a non-issue because if it's not set right, the metal pull down loop won't fit into the lock mechanism. But the height is adjustable. There are also rubber pads that are adjustable that press down when the hatch is closed. So between the motor and the pads, there are an infinite number of ways to adjust the hatch.

4) Subframe connectors.....Quite simply a must. Everything from cornering at high speed, to front/rear rigidness, to simply backing out of your driveway to go to the mailbox will be improved. I like that when you pull onto a steep hill at a 45° angle, that your car doesn't feel like it's going to twist.

For inner SFC, I'd go with the Alstons that TDS sells.
For the outer, I'd go with the Spohn unit (Black Friday sale today I might add)

Both have benefits that compliment what the other doesn't do. The inner ones are great for front/back stiffening. They're cheaper to buy and easier to install. Since your car isn't lowered, the extra room underneath the car for them shouldn't be an issue. And the inner type are a one piece deal.

The outer ones tuck up nicer. Invisible when looking from the side. They make a nice jack point for raising the car. They are a two piece deal, which should mean a bit less strong at the area where the 2 pieces meet. But they can be welded incrementally along the floorboard as well.

For subframe connectors, you really can't go wrong with either model. Convertible people need to use the inner model. Lowered cars should stick with the outer model. For yourself, either would be fine. Doing both is possibly overkill. But that's subjective. Everybody says they notice a difference with a 2nd set. But not nearly as much as the difference going from nothing to the 1st set.

If you want, I can go for a ride with you at the next monthly meet. See if we can pinpoint where or what the vibration is.

 

The rear is much simpler than the front. The shocks stick through a hole behind your back seat. There is a soft pad below the hole and above the hole to cushion that mounting point. It's bolted in with a nut on top. At the bottom of the shock is just a washer and nut......If you've replaced the shocks, there is nothing else to replace (aside from the option of changing the springs, which I would recommend since they fall out when the shocks come out.)

 

The Wonderbar was designed for IROC's and their 16" wheels to prevent stress and/or cracking in the steering box area. Though you probably won't feel any difference (if your car is in good shape), the brace is, nevertheless, a good investment.

I'd avoid full-lock turns:

The following is from How to Tune and Modify your 1982-1998 Camaro by Jason Scott:

"The problem stems from high forces transmitted from the steering box to the chassis, especially under low-speed cornering, such as when maneuvering around a shopping mall parking lot. Fat performance tires present a great deal of resistance at low speeds, which imparts considerable stress into the steering system, and ultimately attempts to rip the steering box from its mounting surface--especially during "full-lock" turns, where steering torque is greatest. Over time, these forces weaken the chassis surface around the steering box and can result in torn metal.

"Whether the chassis is weakened or torn at the steering box, the result is the same--steering actions are delayed while the chassis flexes, leading to unresponsive and erratic steering. Ironically, though the damage stems from low-speed steering, the resulting problem is far more serious at high speeds than low ones.

"It is possible to repair the damaged area, though the best solution is to avoid the problem in the first place by installing a brace that reinforces the steering box mounting area."

JamesC

 

the rearend rattle or noise . ck. the panhard bar , it runs from pass. side of axle to drivers side of body . i had 1 car that all 3 mounting bolts to the body had fallen out . welcome & good luck .

 

First thing I swapped on mine was rear control arms. I was shocked how much creaks, squeeks and rattles went away just with this simple swap.

 

SFC's will correct most noise problems.

 

Hey Mav.

We manufacture and wholeheartedly recommend the wonderbar. It's a good insurance policy.

http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...roducts_id=125

As for subframe connectors, our in-house '89 IROC has them and it still feels rock solid after years and years of test mule abuse. As mentioned above, you don't realize how flexible these cars are until you make them stiff with SFC's. The difference is amazing.

http://www.umiperformance.com/catalo...roducts_id=127

Thanksgiving thru Cyber Monday is happening now. Give us a call or order online.

Also, we're here today (Black Friday) to take your order or help you with technical questions.

Good luck.

ramey

 

When you changed your rear shocks did the springs come un-seated?

 

Thank you, everyone, for the quick responses and great info!

Dude, I'm not even sure if I have one or two fans. I'm that clueless. But I love my car enough to put my pride and ego aside and ask even the most basic questions to avoid screwing it up! I'll look it up and figure it out if I can't figure it out by opening the hood.

I doubt that. My alignment has been very carefully checked and corrected. That's how I found out I needed new idler arms and a gearbox adjustment.

This is further aggravated by a small imperfection in my right front rim that bleeds air every time the temp drops!

I'm sold on a Wonderbar. I'm having the exact same issue.

I like this theory a lot. My hatch motor is temperamental as it is. WTF was GM thinking when they engineered this? Why did they have to make something so complicated and unnecessary out of plastic?

Wow, you really know your way around a chassis! Based on everything above, I think a good set of inners will be sufficient. After all, I've got t-tops. And since I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel, I'd probably just stop there and see how it feels.

I'd really appreciate that! Unfortunately, I won't be able to make December's, but I'll see you next year!

Stupid question...how do you know if you need springs?

I've started doing that. It feels like I'm going to twist the car in half!

That's what's happening to me...thanks for that info! No more full lock turns for me!

I'll check that out...thanks!

I'm going to explore the hatch motor theory, but I have a feeling you're right. What kind did you go with?

Totally sold on SFC's. What kind did you use?

I don't know...my mechanic didn't mention anything though. If they did, I probably need new ones, right?


THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYBODY AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!

 

My first rear contol arms were Lakewoods. Now I am running Jegs units with a rod end on one end and a solid steel bushing on the other.

I would look into any from UMI, Spohn, Founders, etc.

 

I would also recommend the sub frame connectors and the "wonder" bar. But I'll be surprised if you can tell a difference with the Wonder bar.

I've had a factory "Wonder" bar on my car since 85. I never could tell any difference, and I ended up cracking the frame under my steering box and ripping the welded idler arm mount off on the other side. But that was running race tires.

Anyway, I had to pull my gear box out in order to find the crack underneath it.

Have you checked your sway bar end links recently? I've had a funny rattle back there that ended up being a bad end link bushing which allowed the washer to rattle on the bolt sometimes. It is an easy thing to check.

If you want to know what some of the different suspension mods will do for you, I'll take you for a ride at the next Houston meet.

 

rattle in the rear could also be your spare tire or jack!!!

 

You know what...knowing my dumb ***, it might well be something that simple! I'll check it out, because that's where the noise seems to be coming from...

 

Well did you find anything ?

 

Nope...haven't looked yet...I've got my in-laws & nephews over this weekend...9 people under one roof. I'm lucky I can find my sanity!! The best time to take a look at yours and other suggestions will be later on in the week when we're all back to our routines. But I'm going to look at your idea first and hope that it's something obvious that's going to save me money!

 

Mine rattled really bad back there, over bumbs or rail road tracks it was horrible. Took my spare out and it quieted down alittle, still gotta take the jack out

 

whilst you describe low speed, mechanical creaking, that will most probably be resolved by a wonderbar and sfc's for general gradient changes, can I throw in that butane matt type sound deadening works wonders for resonance and a great compliment to the aforementioned chassis work for 'better' ride.

These cars have alot of metal in them and engine/ road vibrations can sometimes resonate through the shell making for an unpleasant ride.

I've recently dynamatted the rear section of my car (removing the rear carpet and covering the boot, petrol trank hump and behind the rear seat) and I was surprised at how it seemed to 'thud' when going over potholes as opposed to previosuly to jarr and rattle.

My point; wonderbar et al is gret for 'tightening' (word?) up the chassis. But it didn't give me the full improvement in ride quality I was hoping for. Finish it off with some decent butane matting.

Then add a HSR to counter all that added weight!!

 

Old, worn, rotted, rusty bushings sure can be noisey too!
There are tons of small changes, replacements that can do wonders for these cars, of course before you know it, you are elbow deep in a full restoration!
But then again, if we are trying to use these cars as daily drivers, we must realize even the newest models are turning 20 years old!
No matter the milage, those years are rough on cars and the materials they are made of.
Sorry for the rant. Maybe it's a warning? In short, replacing worn parts will make your car ride and sound like new, but watch out, how much money do you want to spend?

 

Johnny, thank you for bringing me back to my senses. I actually once made your exact argument about why I want to leave my car alone as much as possible. Here's why:

• I searched hard for an unmodified, original Trans Am, and I got a great one. I bought it with the intent of keeping it original, and fixing only what is absolutely broken. Right now, that would only be a sagging right door (need hinges) and nearly worn out front seat belt retractors. (I have a feeling that the hatch motor is going to be next, but if the motor craps out while the hatch is locked, I'll just put the t-tops in the back seat when I take them off.)
• Making "improvements" is a slippery slope. So even if I spent Corvette money, I'd still have a 23 year old car that will never be perfect. Plus, I'd basically have to triple my budget for any part, since someone other than me is going to have to install it.
• Lest we forget, even when these cars were brand new, as advanced as they were for their time, () they were still cursed with 1980's GM engineering and quality control. The damned things squeaked and rattled when they left Van Nuys! I wanted the 80's experience down to the crappy stereo, so I might as well enjoy it.
• If I lay off full lock turns, I probably wouldn't need a Wonderbar because the mechanic who did my alignment, readjusted my steering, and installed new idler arms would probably have taken the opportunity to tell me about every crack he found.

So now, thankfully, it's back to only fixing what's broken. I bought my car to cruise in it, not to race it. Besides, maybe it is something simple like a loose jack or spare.

Too bad you're in Indiana, Johnny...I would have bought you a beer with the money you saved me!

 

When the frame cracked under my gear box, there was no way to see it without removing the gear box. It just gave the steering a "mushy" feeling, even with all new components.

So IF yours is cracked, even an experienced alignment guy could have easily missed it.

If it is not cracked, a "wonder" bar will help it stay that way. I paid $5.36 for mine from the dealer in 1985, and it took me 10 minutes to install it with 1 socket. If you don't want to pay big bucks for an aftermarket version, call around or search some junk yards and see if you can find an old factory part. Just keep your eyes open fora a good deal and get it when you find it.

Since it was a factory part on some cars I would not classify it as an aftermarket part. Even if you get one that isn't made by GM it is still just a replacement part.

 

I would also still recommend the sub frame connectors, especially for a T-Top car.
They may not be a factory part...but they should have been.

 

X2 on this, was exactly my situation. Even after getting it welded up, you could turn the wheel and still see the whole frame flexing a little, and it still felt a little mushy.

I made my own wonderbar and it immediately tightened up, has been great for years now. Subframe connectors for all their benefits are a tricky install; the wonderbar is cheap and easy insurance. Don't know why the factory didn't complete the front sub-frame with a welded cross piece in the first place.

 

Spohn's is having a halfway decent sale on both. But until I'm employed again, there's no way to get this past the budget and finance committee (my wife). I think both should have been original equipment on the cars, but GM wouldn't have spent the money. Even if they did spend the money, it would have been on POS stuff that would have broken down anyway. Of course, if the chassis were engineered better, they wouldn't need all the supporting equipment...or it would have been integrated.

Any way to save a buck. Back in the 80's, GM's priorities when it came to quality weren't all that high.

 

Check these, drove me nuts for a month or two till I figured it out.

 

Could be that too. Sounds like that could be high up on the list of suspects since the problem is only intermittent the way esc is describing. Thanks!

 

The first chassis mod I did was a Wonderbar from TDS- BEST $50 I have EVER spent. My car was stiffer than a schoolboy in a strong wind! SFC were next and they took almost ALL of the sqeaks and rattles out of the car. LCAs were next from Hot Part- they have a swivel bushing at each end that appears to reduce binding and really helped quieten down and stiffen the rear end. MUCH more responsive and a better ride to boot for a total investment in parts of about $450. Worth every penny if you ask me...