Bad Alignment
10-13-2012, 01:05 PM
#51
Re: Bad Alignment
We recently went to the track about 2 weeks ago and I had Val drop his PHB a little lower (already had it down to the second notch on the Jegs unit) It still was not enough in the 3rd down of 4, he was still a tad loose on the track at speed under hard braking and turn-in. A bad fuel pump stopped him so we never lowered it one more.
Funny thing is he calls me two days later and says "Can I put my car back where it was, I am struggling on the steering wheel driving around town. I like the way we had it before". I laughed and said yes. We only dropped his rear RC another 1/2" and his steering was very heavy on regular driving. On the track the tires get much hotter and greasy so the car will rotate easier than with normal street driving. Again, that was just a 1/2" change- a 1/2" change can be major. A car will change under racing conditions unlike street driving so you need different settings for each. It is why race cars can not drive on the street even if they were allowed- they would never retain enough heat to make the drive enjoyable- hence the same problem with expensive exotics like Ferrari, they are not traffic light cars and that is why owners do not drive them- they are made for track use and will feel like crap until you get everything up to operating track temps.
ps- I laughed with Val because its his car, not mine, yet he was calling to ask if he could. He's a great kid and pays me way too much respect because of my age and he doesn;t want to change things like as if he's touching my car without asking.I am honored to have such a well manored friend. He really has learned alot and is a great driver at his young age.
Here's a shot of our local club out at a private track rental we all did lsat year. Greygoose is on the track in the background behind use. There was about 10 or 12 of us there that day playing with 3rd gens. This is Myself and Valentin going over pyro temps on his tires to see how the car is managing heat and tire footprint. I make adjustments off off these readings. I can;t remeber if Jerrywho was there that day but he's been at a few of these also along with alot of the local guys. We have a good group of guys and gals around here and have alot of fun at the tracks. If I recall, Pablo was there that day. It was prior to him moving to Italy. Pablo has the track record I think for American muscle with his stripped down 3rd gen with 315's on CCW's on all four corners- Those wheels have some major grip on the r compound hoosiers- I was aobut 5-6 seconds off him even in my Vetruck and I was I think 3rd fastest. I know frank Clipped me but I also had a busted brake booster that happeend on the way out there( Just for the record)
Funny thing is he calls me two days later and says "Can I put my car back where it was, I am struggling on the steering wheel driving around town. I like the way we had it before". I laughed and said yes. We only dropped his rear RC another 1/2" and his steering was very heavy on regular driving. On the track the tires get much hotter and greasy so the car will rotate easier than with normal street driving. Again, that was just a 1/2" change- a 1/2" change can be major. A car will change under racing conditions unlike street driving so you need different settings for each. It is why race cars can not drive on the street even if they were allowed- they would never retain enough heat to make the drive enjoyable- hence the same problem with expensive exotics like Ferrari, they are not traffic light cars and that is why owners do not drive them- they are made for track use and will feel like crap until you get everything up to operating track temps.
ps- I laughed with Val because its his car, not mine, yet he was calling to ask if he could. He's a great kid and pays me way too much respect because of my age and he doesn;t want to change things like as if he's touching my car without asking.I am honored to have such a well manored friend. He really has learned alot and is a great driver at his young age.
Here's a shot of our local club out at a private track rental we all did lsat year. Greygoose is on the track in the background behind use. There was about 10 or 12 of us there that day playing with 3rd gens. This is Myself and Valentin going over pyro temps on his tires to see how the car is managing heat and tire footprint. I make adjustments off off these readings. I can;t remeber if Jerrywho was there that day but he's been at a few of these also along with alot of the local guys. We have a good group of guys and gals around here and have alot of fun at the tracks. If I recall, Pablo was there that day. It was prior to him moving to Italy. Pablo has the track record I think for American muscle with his stripped down 3rd gen with 315's on CCW's on all four corners- Those wheels have some major grip on the r compound hoosiers- I was aobut 5-6 seconds off him even in my Vetruck and I was I think 3rd fastest. I know frank Clipped me but I also had a busted brake booster that happeend on the way out there( Just for the record)
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 10-13-2012 at 01:34 PM.
10-13-2012, 03:43 PM
#52
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Car: '89 Formula
Engine: LS2
Transmission: 4L65E
Axle/Gears: MW 3.42 12 Bolt
Re: Bad Alignment
The way I got my car to rotate was to induce progressive spring rates rapidly upon outside rear suspension compression. This also allowed me to migrate my rear rc outside very rapidly to leverage weight onto the inside rear and kepp the inside rear from jacking up in the air with both a 25MM bar AND a softer release progressive spring (and fairly high rebound shock settings). I could get away with the 25mm bar because I had a very light nosed V6 car.
For the sake of conceptualizing this, we’re totally finished braking going into turn, correct?
With a big bar, we’re certainly not “fighting” the weight xfer per se (encouraging it), or its too tight and steering suffers. EDIT: I mean bar & light spring combo. Using a low rear RC, we’re limiting the leverage of that weight (small height teeter totter vs tall one) while using lighter springs and harsher rebound damp to keep the inside wheel down. Progressive springs encourage the initial weight xfer too, then stiffen to bring it back after – again, not fighting weight xfer, but using it initially. How important are the sway bar attachment points in this scenario?
Last edited by TEDSgrad; 10-13-2012 at 08:43 PM.
10-13-2012, 09:40 PM
#53
Supreme Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Double Bratville
Posts: 1,617
Likes: 0
Received 42 Likes
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31 Posts
Car: '89 Formula
Engine: LS2
Transmission: 4L65E
Axle/Gears: MW 3.42 12 Bolt
Re: Bad Alignment
I'll try again: big bar will decrease roll angle and increase lateral load xfer to the tires.
Carroll Smith doesn't like the RC to CG : he uses mass centroid axis instead of cg. Roll axis should be parallel to the MCA for both front & rear so that their Roll Couple's (Roll couple distribution is the relative roll stiffness between the front and rear of the car) will be equal. But, the front Roll Couple should be greater for some understeer and gives more traction at back.
So with the bigger bar we get quicker load xfer to the tires - the vehicle will be more stable and respond quicker to changes in direction.
Carroll Smith doesn't like the RC to CG : he uses mass centroid axis instead of cg. Roll axis should be parallel to the MCA for both front & rear so that their Roll Couple's (Roll couple distribution is the relative roll stiffness between the front and rear of the car) will be equal. But, the front Roll Couple should be greater for some understeer and gives more traction at back.
So with the bigger bar we get quicker load xfer to the tires - the vehicle will be more stable and respond quicker to changes in direction.
10-14-2012, 01:32 PM
#54
Re: Bad Alignment
I personally feel going to a mass centroid axis is rediculous in terms of thinking about the chassis dynamics. It puts way too much complexity into the visual of roll centers that is not necessary. I personally think it was Carrol Shelby trying to get fancy with terms so as to confuse the average person into thinking he knows more than them. This is common with most people in position of running race teams (aka crew cheifs in NASCAR. I see it all the time, they talk down on people and do not explain things other than in terms that its above other heads- mostly because they either 1) want to keep everyone else in the dark thus securing their position/job, and 2) they actually don;t know some things and don;t want other people know they are guessing. Trust me when I tell you I have enbarassed a few people at the track and seen right through their bullshat.
Why? Mass is NOT on an axis, mass moves about like a gyroscope and is being hit and pushed from every unpredictable direction even wth the account of wind force and aero downforce.
I used progressive rate springs that I trimmed a coil off the lighter tight wind side to increase the initial rate a little. I also set the car where it came into very progressive Koni bumpstops that also aided in rate increase because I did not have enough growth as I wanted. It took me several years to get this car how I wanted it . I had about 1 1/8" travel prior to contacting the bumps. the massive swaybar (25mm rear) was so both sides would mover fairly dependant of the other coil on striaght neutral ride level. With softer springs in passive loading of an inside corner wheel, the weight transfer and thus increase of wheel rate (and here's the kicker) migrates the roll center off center chassis laterally to the outsde wheel very rapidly- THUS yawing the roll axis of the car and leveraging the weight of chassis to not teeter totter over from the inside rear towrds the outside front. THe porgessive rate spring release pressure is not as great as a linear springs so this aided but the swaybar connecting both sides and the hi rebound helped prevent wheel hop. You can pretty much only get away with this with a lightweight nosed V6 car. THe V8's will still wheelhop and/or be very very loose under brake crnering becuase of the heavier nose weight of the V8 rolling the nose and lifting the insider ear of the chassis still. I figure mx max wheel rate at about 2" compression was about 300lbs on the rear, The front was a 34 mm bar and about 825 lb coils static. It was a very different aimal from what you V8 guys run- and that even takes into account the LS guys thinking they are as light, not even close. You would have had to ride in my car to understand the jetfigther like rection it had. It challanged many cars in its day and no one ever came close to its abilty in transitons. I also had an ongoing "$500 to come knock me off" slalohm challange thaat I was actually banned from these boards once for promoting that nobody ever took me up on.
The yawwed roll couple and the light nose were the key to why this car worked so incredibly well.
The whole car was a package build. Everything had its place and I had done a incredible amount of work and moddifications over the years to perfect this car- and it rode very very well to the grocery store. Even the front wheel asseblies and brakes were very very exotic and lightweight unsprung weight. The rear axle had lightweight gears, drilled axles, and various aluminum parts including a very lightweight carbon fiber driveshaft. I kept the small factory 8" IROCs because they looked good and I ran 4 "rears" with custom machined hubcentric aluminum spacers up front becuae the rears were only 19lbs- I was also the only 3rd gen that could rotate all my tires without dismounting them from the wheels to do so.
Why? Mass is NOT on an axis, mass moves about like a gyroscope and is being hit and pushed from every unpredictable direction even wth the account of wind force and aero downforce.
I used progressive rate springs that I trimmed a coil off the lighter tight wind side to increase the initial rate a little. I also set the car where it came into very progressive Koni bumpstops that also aided in rate increase because I did not have enough growth as I wanted. It took me several years to get this car how I wanted it . I had about 1 1/8" travel prior to contacting the bumps. the massive swaybar (25mm rear) was so both sides would mover fairly dependant of the other coil on striaght neutral ride level. With softer springs in passive loading of an inside corner wheel, the weight transfer and thus increase of wheel rate (and here's the kicker) migrates the roll center off center chassis laterally to the outsde wheel very rapidly- THUS yawing the roll axis of the car and leveraging the weight of chassis to not teeter totter over from the inside rear towrds the outside front. THe porgessive rate spring release pressure is not as great as a linear springs so this aided but the swaybar connecting both sides and the hi rebound helped prevent wheel hop. You can pretty much only get away with this with a lightweight nosed V6 car. THe V8's will still wheelhop and/or be very very loose under brake crnering becuase of the heavier nose weight of the V8 rolling the nose and lifting the insider ear of the chassis still. I figure mx max wheel rate at about 2" compression was about 300lbs on the rear, The front was a 34 mm bar and about 825 lb coils static. It was a very different aimal from what you V8 guys run- and that even takes into account the LS guys thinking they are as light, not even close. You would have had to ride in my car to understand the jetfigther like rection it had. It challanged many cars in its day and no one ever came close to its abilty in transitons. I also had an ongoing "$500 to come knock me off" slalohm challange thaat I was actually banned from these boards once for promoting that nobody ever took me up on.
The yawwed roll couple and the light nose were the key to why this car worked so incredibly well.
The whole car was a package build. Everything had its place and I had done a incredible amount of work and moddifications over the years to perfect this car- and it rode very very well to the grocery store. Even the front wheel asseblies and brakes were very very exotic and lightweight unsprung weight. The rear axle had lightweight gears, drilled axles, and various aluminum parts including a very lightweight carbon fiber driveshaft. I kept the small factory 8" IROCs because they looked good and I ran 4 "rears" with custom machined hubcentric aluminum spacers up front becuae the rears were only 19lbs- I was also the only 3rd gen that could rotate all my tires without dismounting them from the wheels to do so.
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 10-14-2012 at 01:46 PM.
10-14-2012, 01:50 PM
#55
Re: Bad Alignment
I do this rarely- but here is 'my" signature (The mods appreciated that I never included this on the bottom of every one of my posts like people do here.
****
What the Camaro is and consists of:
Started life as a Limited production '87 Calif Edition RS Camaro with a custom dealer paint scheme.
I have added-
*'87 IROC 16x8 rims that I had chromed- Rims then were balanced grind to ensure perfect balance before tires were ever fitted. Reducing the need for much balance weight when tires are mounted
*Multiple sets of high dollar performance tires-update 7/05,BFG KDW(cut a Goodyear GSD3, needed tires quickly. The KDW were readily availiable yet not 1st choice)
*Arp racing studs 1/2" x 2.970
*1/2" lugnuts - triple chromed
*'87 IROC 10-bolt with rear discs, 3.23's and posi (I'll get more into this later- It has been modified from this stock point)
*Various sets of stock front and rear 10.5" performance rotors and pads. Mainly Stillen brake rotors and pads were best by far in the 10.5" iron caliper catagory.
* finally after years of not keeping "reliable" (meaning long lasting without warping) brakes on the car I decided to upgrade them- Wilwood LS1 12.2x.810 4pot rears with internal drum parking brake assembly.
*All brake fasteners have been drilled and safetywired (rotors, brackets and calipers)
*Lokar custom fit steelbraided E-brake cables and clevis, stock parking lever adjuster removed and part of assembly altered
*Fronts are 6pot 13x1.25 Wilwood -Biggest anyone can get under a stock 16" iroc rim- Everything custom made and fitted from scratch. Spindles shaved for weight reduction
*GLobal West custom billet aluminum G-body front hubs
*Custom alum hubcentric wheel spacers to set proper scrub pattern with new front brake setup
*Earls braided brake lines-Custom Earls fronts with fttings on Wilwood setup
*Earls Solo-bleed fluid valves
*1LE prop valve (I have recently put a new booster on also in the past two years.)
*EBC green pads for quiet street use
*Bracing welded to A-arms
*ES Bushings in A-Arms*extended ball joints*SAI angle between spindle and strut manipulated for closer to nuetral scrub
*Suspension Spring Specialist 800lb front linear springs trimmed to ride height. Final rate aprox 810-820lbs from trimming to exact desired height
*rear Progressive rate springs 145-225lb max
*Koni shaft style progessive rate bumpstops that are setup to assist the rear spring rate even further progessively to help induce a certain disired amount of cornering squat
*Koni "yellow" sport struts & shocks on max setting front and 1click down from max on rears
*Custom billet aluminum HMS strut mounts with special Aurora HD racing bearings. Also had them polished.
*Fairly agressive alignment specs for being used on the street everyday. If I didn't occationally drive this car hard, the wifes daily driving would cause uneven tire wear.
*Eldebrock TPI 3pt strut tower brace -modified with stronger mount brackets
*Global West steering brace (Car already has a quick ratio 2.25 lock to lock steering box from factory)
*Custom welded upper rear steering box brace (pre-loaded and removable)
*Custom welded trans tunnel/rear control are brace (pre-loaded and removable)
*Baer bumpsteer alum adj rodended tierods sleeves
*Spohn 34mm solid chromemoly front swaybar
*HD front swaybar frame mounts so the bar does not pull out of the frame under hard cornering
*Front grill and airboxes modified to alter airflow patterns into the nose of the car
*BeCool Aluminum V8 radiator, dual core.
*BeCool dual fan kit (rated @ 700hp)Relays and temp switches for both fans. One hardwired to battery and probed into radiator bung for redondant backup. First fan wired as standard 1 fan system on factory wiring and A/C relay.I had the Becool aluminum fan mounts TIG welded to the radiator upper and lower supports
*BeCool Billet catchcan
*Stainless Steel solid 3' long upper and lower radiator flex hoses. Polished billet alum hose ends (not copper flex hoses that are chromed, these are 100% SS.)
*Dual highflow air filters
*A/C system completely updated to a "new" R-134 setup. Not the old R-12 compressor converted.
*Darrell Young Racing "completely custom" (Not off the shelf) 700r4 with everything internally gutted and upgraded new with all the latest and greatest. Heavy emphasis went into minimal drivetrain loss with internal componant choices. Built to handle 300hp raced reliably for years hopefully. Been great for almost 3yrs so far (7/05)
*Custom made V8 torque convertor fitted to V6 tranny (Tranny has V8 imput shaft)
*Autometer trans temp guage with electric sender unit 100*-250*
runs @ 185*, max on 98* day at the track is 210*
*B & M shifter gate plate (Prototype)
*ACPT carbon fiber 4lb driveshaft with Spicer u-joints. Spohn driveshaft loop cut back off at this point- No more concern about a high speed polevault with the brooming carbon fiber safety system
*rebuilt 10bolt rearend with new bearings, seals and kept the taller 3.23's in it. I like this ratio on the road better than the 3.42's. They have a broader power range through corners and higher top end without going into O.D.- Good for roadracing.
* Moser alloy axles with lightweight drilled flanges to reduce rotation weight
* "Roadrace" version Auburn Posi
*Aluminum diff cover with bearing cap preloads
*BMR bolt-on relocation brackets (I welded them into place) Why bolt-ons? They have a secondary support brace that the weld-on styles don't- strengthens the shock mount for a future coilover rear conversion. I was thinking ahead, but don't now think I'll ever bother doing it.
*Spohn chromemoly TQarm with solid trans mount crossmember with driveshaft loop. I also fitted the front solid mount with a larger HD Aurora rodend.(edit: cut loop off when installed carbon fiber driveshaft)
*ES poly trans mount
*25mm chromemoly Spohn rear swaybar with HD axle mounts.
*Spohn chromemoly adj LCA's with special HD Aurora rodends (34,000 load rating) also added- Radius arm swing shorteneds as much as possible to induce roll understeer when cornering /update:new 56,000 load rating QA1 rodends now fitted. part # HMR12HCPT ("T" is teflon lined)
*Tubular panhard rod (Future changes will be made here to add roll center adj provisions)
*Jegs panhard rod relocator. Lowered rear roll center. Excess metal trimmed off for weight savings
*Spohn tubular suframe connectors. I installed myself and welded them along the subframe. Custom bent trianglar inboard braces and welded them to the floorboard also. 1) to gain catalytic convertor height for ground clearance. 2) Direct bracing design- stronger and ties into, not laying on top like original Spohn design. he doesn't do this for ease of install for the average person.
*The entire floorboad is cleaned and epoxy painted to help prevent corrision.
*PF&E custom stainless steel headers (One of a kind. Stainless retains heat and is much perfered for racing, and for life expectancy of headers)Headers are on. Used VW(type1) 1 1/2" port metal/composite performance exhasut manifold gaskets.
*PF&E custom stainless steel y-pipe.
*Headers & y-pipe are also ceramic coated
*Magnaflow 4" round high flow catalytic convertor. 2 1/2" in and out
*Magnaflow 4" round Bullet muffler straightpipe for catalytic convertor removal
*Catalytic & bullet sections both have StainlessSteel V-clamp Collars for quick change.For track use, can up the fuel pressure without the cat so I do not burn it up.
*Catback exhaust completely redone with 2 1/2" pipe. Tucked under floorboard as tight as possible (It doesn't hang down like over the counter exhuasts do).
*StainlessWorks custom made smooth muffler installed into I-pipe potition
*10" long Cherrybomb tubo style chamber muffler and crome resonator tailpipe tip (very little rear car exhaust weight compared to factory designs)
*'89 Vette in-tank fuelpump. Higher pressure and flow with metal internals. Stock pump has plastic internals.
*Holley adjustable fuel pressure reg. Stock psi at idle:38/wot 43psi. I run idle 45psi/wot 55 psi
*Autometer air/fuel ratio gauge
*Autometer electric fuel pressure gauge 0-100psi
*Autometer FP sender tapped into stock fuel rail intake block
*62mm EDP billet alum TB (discountinued- but I have a new one)
*Custom home made alum plenum (not on car yet)
*Polished intake runners to injectors. Polished stock plenum neck as much as possible and also blocked the EGR to prevent the notorious carbon buildup(Ported and polished on uninstalled setup- I have another complete intake manifold for the new motor)
*17lb & 19lb injector sets (I still have the stock 15lb injectors in the car)
*1.52 roller tip rockers installed currently
*Fiero alum valvecovers (not installed)
*140amp polished Alt with custom bracket
*ASP crankshaft underdrive pulley
*new design tensioner
*timing cover with electric WP fitting TIG welded in place (not installed)
*aftermarket prom chip- programed for 180* running temp
*New distributor with A/C Delco module and dist based drilled for added cooling
*53,000volt Hypertech ignition coil. (Stock is 38,000, MSD is 48,000) Coil underneath further heatshielded from exhaust manifold
*Taylor 8.8mm race wires
*Taylor fire sleeves to heat shield the spark plug cable boots
*EVERY sensor in the computer system loop has been replace with a new A/C Delco units within the past 2 years- everything is perfect. A/C delco sensors and module are the best money can buy. They have great insulation against heat and will out perform anything else in the short and long run- don't ever buy any other brand.
*3 years ago I had a new 2.8 GM crate motor put into it (not rebuilt) It has currently about 41,000 on it.(as of 7/05)
*I run a longer oilfilter thanks to header clearance, 1/2qt more oil volume now in motor due to larger filter
*3.4L 60*V6 bolck on engine stand bored to 3.5l (in process of custom build)
*MobilOne full synthetic 15W50 oil in every car I drive.
*40below and swimming pool ("treated") water in the cooling system
*Deleted the TB coolant lines entirely for ease of plenum removal.
* 13 degree timing advance. stock is 10*
*redid the headliner
*LaCarrera polished 4-spoke steering wheel and polished billet hub with black bowtie engraved horn insert.
*Pioneer 1.5din CD player reciever unit- no amps. This unit doesn't need it. It has much much better sound than the factory ERS system. Amps add too much weight anyways- I'm into handling so I personally don't care for that crap in a car. I have a home system that will drowned out any ******* neighbor playing their crappy thump thump music in the rare case that happens in my neighborhood. Loud music doesn't belong in an automobile (My personal opinion) One need to listen to the noises your car is telling you when you drive- especially when pressing a car (A big tip for novice drivers.)
*Sylvainia Silverstar headlamps both low and high beams
*Triple edge lifetime wiperblades
*Personalized license plate reading: ON A RAIL
*Autolite plugs
*Optima "yellow" top battery ("Reds" are crap, they can not deep cycle and will ruin if discharged then jumpstarted)
*Does the matching painted floorjack count? I was bored
*Momo Street Racer GT recliner seats (Black/grey bead trim)http://www.momousa.com/product_view....ping.jpg&id=62
*Momo adjustable slider seat brackets (specific made for 3rdgen Camaro factory mounts)
*Dynamat sound deadening and heat insulation floorboard including rear seat area- purposely added lower roll weight below the roll axis to counter positive roll aspects and improve ride quality weight ration sprung to unsprung- as well as the normal sound deadening benefit
*ACC deluxe carpet kit
*Hurst dual gate shifter
*Hurst pistol grip
*AGR quick ratio 12:1 steering box with billet aluminum retainer plates
* Custom steering shaft made up of Flaming River solid swivel joints and telescopic shaft- stainless steel.
*Custom fabric headliner
*Custom fabric door panels
*factory aluminum front bumper support
*Factory fiberglass hood (82-83) "not yet installed" Pending installation- might not use if a better aftermarket one comes out before I need new paint
There is actually alot more I can add, but youg et the point. So much work in custom suspesnion setup. taking apart, altering, putting back together- and again anad again and fabricating then grinding...you get the point. This lists most of the basic stuff people know about- alot of stuff that is missing I have finaaly disclose on here ove rthe past few years so people have a better understanding of what I actually did to this car that was so unique in fixing alot of the GM design engineering flaws
****
What the Camaro is and consists of:
Started life as a Limited production '87 Calif Edition RS Camaro with a custom dealer paint scheme.
I have added-
*'87 IROC 16x8 rims that I had chromed- Rims then were balanced grind to ensure perfect balance before tires were ever fitted. Reducing the need for much balance weight when tires are mounted
*Multiple sets of high dollar performance tires-update 7/05,BFG KDW(cut a Goodyear GSD3, needed tires quickly. The KDW were readily availiable yet not 1st choice)
*Arp racing studs 1/2" x 2.970
*1/2" lugnuts - triple chromed
*'87 IROC 10-bolt with rear discs, 3.23's and posi (I'll get more into this later- It has been modified from this stock point)
*Various sets of stock front and rear 10.5" performance rotors and pads. Mainly Stillen brake rotors and pads were best by far in the 10.5" iron caliper catagory.
* finally after years of not keeping "reliable" (meaning long lasting without warping) brakes on the car I decided to upgrade them- Wilwood LS1 12.2x.810 4pot rears with internal drum parking brake assembly.
*All brake fasteners have been drilled and safetywired (rotors, brackets and calipers)
*Lokar custom fit steelbraided E-brake cables and clevis, stock parking lever adjuster removed and part of assembly altered
*Fronts are 6pot 13x1.25 Wilwood -Biggest anyone can get under a stock 16" iroc rim- Everything custom made and fitted from scratch. Spindles shaved for weight reduction
*GLobal West custom billet aluminum G-body front hubs
*Custom alum hubcentric wheel spacers to set proper scrub pattern with new front brake setup
*Earls braided brake lines-Custom Earls fronts with fttings on Wilwood setup
*Earls Solo-bleed fluid valves
*1LE prop valve (I have recently put a new booster on also in the past two years.)
*EBC green pads for quiet street use
*Bracing welded to A-arms
*ES Bushings in A-Arms*extended ball joints*SAI angle between spindle and strut manipulated for closer to nuetral scrub
*Suspension Spring Specialist 800lb front linear springs trimmed to ride height. Final rate aprox 810-820lbs from trimming to exact desired height
*rear Progressive rate springs 145-225lb max
*Koni shaft style progessive rate bumpstops that are setup to assist the rear spring rate even further progessively to help induce a certain disired amount of cornering squat
*Koni "yellow" sport struts & shocks on max setting front and 1click down from max on rears
*Custom billet aluminum HMS strut mounts with special Aurora HD racing bearings. Also had them polished.
*Fairly agressive alignment specs for being used on the street everyday. If I didn't occationally drive this car hard, the wifes daily driving would cause uneven tire wear.
*Eldebrock TPI 3pt strut tower brace -modified with stronger mount brackets
*Global West steering brace (Car already has a quick ratio 2.25 lock to lock steering box from factory)
*Custom welded upper rear steering box brace (pre-loaded and removable)
*Custom welded trans tunnel/rear control are brace (pre-loaded and removable)
*Baer bumpsteer alum adj rodended tierods sleeves
*Spohn 34mm solid chromemoly front swaybar
*HD front swaybar frame mounts so the bar does not pull out of the frame under hard cornering
*Front grill and airboxes modified to alter airflow patterns into the nose of the car
*BeCool Aluminum V8 radiator, dual core.
*BeCool dual fan kit (rated @ 700hp)Relays and temp switches for both fans. One hardwired to battery and probed into radiator bung for redondant backup. First fan wired as standard 1 fan system on factory wiring and A/C relay.I had the Becool aluminum fan mounts TIG welded to the radiator upper and lower supports
*BeCool Billet catchcan
*Stainless Steel solid 3' long upper and lower radiator flex hoses. Polished billet alum hose ends (not copper flex hoses that are chromed, these are 100% SS.)
*Dual highflow air filters
*A/C system completely updated to a "new" R-134 setup. Not the old R-12 compressor converted.
*Darrell Young Racing "completely custom" (Not off the shelf) 700r4 with everything internally gutted and upgraded new with all the latest and greatest. Heavy emphasis went into minimal drivetrain loss with internal componant choices. Built to handle 300hp raced reliably for years hopefully. Been great for almost 3yrs so far (7/05)
*Custom made V8 torque convertor fitted to V6 tranny (Tranny has V8 imput shaft)
*Autometer trans temp guage with electric sender unit 100*-250*
runs @ 185*, max on 98* day at the track is 210*
*B & M shifter gate plate (Prototype)
*ACPT carbon fiber 4lb driveshaft with Spicer u-joints. Spohn driveshaft loop cut back off at this point- No more concern about a high speed polevault with the brooming carbon fiber safety system
*rebuilt 10bolt rearend with new bearings, seals and kept the taller 3.23's in it. I like this ratio on the road better than the 3.42's. They have a broader power range through corners and higher top end without going into O.D.- Good for roadracing.
* Moser alloy axles with lightweight drilled flanges to reduce rotation weight
* "Roadrace" version Auburn Posi
*Aluminum diff cover with bearing cap preloads
*BMR bolt-on relocation brackets (I welded them into place) Why bolt-ons? They have a secondary support brace that the weld-on styles don't- strengthens the shock mount for a future coilover rear conversion. I was thinking ahead, but don't now think I'll ever bother doing it.
*Spohn chromemoly TQarm with solid trans mount crossmember with driveshaft loop. I also fitted the front solid mount with a larger HD Aurora rodend.(edit: cut loop off when installed carbon fiber driveshaft)
*ES poly trans mount
*25mm chromemoly Spohn rear swaybar with HD axle mounts.
*Spohn chromemoly adj LCA's with special HD Aurora rodends (34,000 load rating) also added- Radius arm swing shorteneds as much as possible to induce roll understeer when cornering /update:new 56,000 load rating QA1 rodends now fitted. part # HMR12HCPT ("T" is teflon lined)
*Tubular panhard rod (Future changes will be made here to add roll center adj provisions)
*Jegs panhard rod relocator. Lowered rear roll center. Excess metal trimmed off for weight savings
*Spohn tubular suframe connectors. I installed myself and welded them along the subframe. Custom bent trianglar inboard braces and welded them to the floorboard also. 1) to gain catalytic convertor height for ground clearance. 2) Direct bracing design- stronger and ties into, not laying on top like original Spohn design. he doesn't do this for ease of install for the average person.
*The entire floorboad is cleaned and epoxy painted to help prevent corrision.
*PF&E custom stainless steel headers (One of a kind. Stainless retains heat and is much perfered for racing, and for life expectancy of headers)Headers are on. Used VW(type1) 1 1/2" port metal/composite performance exhasut manifold gaskets.
*PF&E custom stainless steel y-pipe.
*Headers & y-pipe are also ceramic coated
*Magnaflow 4" round high flow catalytic convertor. 2 1/2" in and out
*Magnaflow 4" round Bullet muffler straightpipe for catalytic convertor removal
*Catalytic & bullet sections both have StainlessSteel V-clamp Collars for quick change.For track use, can up the fuel pressure without the cat so I do not burn it up.
*Catback exhaust completely redone with 2 1/2" pipe. Tucked under floorboard as tight as possible (It doesn't hang down like over the counter exhuasts do).
*StainlessWorks custom made smooth muffler installed into I-pipe potition
*10" long Cherrybomb tubo style chamber muffler and crome resonator tailpipe tip (very little rear car exhaust weight compared to factory designs)
*'89 Vette in-tank fuelpump. Higher pressure and flow with metal internals. Stock pump has plastic internals.
*Holley adjustable fuel pressure reg. Stock psi at idle:38/wot 43psi. I run idle 45psi/wot 55 psi
*Autometer air/fuel ratio gauge
*Autometer electric fuel pressure gauge 0-100psi
*Autometer FP sender tapped into stock fuel rail intake block
*62mm EDP billet alum TB (discountinued- but I have a new one)
*Custom home made alum plenum (not on car yet)
*Polished intake runners to injectors. Polished stock plenum neck as much as possible and also blocked the EGR to prevent the notorious carbon buildup(Ported and polished on uninstalled setup- I have another complete intake manifold for the new motor)
*17lb & 19lb injector sets (I still have the stock 15lb injectors in the car)
*1.52 roller tip rockers installed currently
*Fiero alum valvecovers (not installed)
*140amp polished Alt with custom bracket
*ASP crankshaft underdrive pulley
*new design tensioner
*timing cover with electric WP fitting TIG welded in place (not installed)
*aftermarket prom chip- programed for 180* running temp
*New distributor with A/C Delco module and dist based drilled for added cooling
*53,000volt Hypertech ignition coil. (Stock is 38,000, MSD is 48,000) Coil underneath further heatshielded from exhaust manifold
*Taylor 8.8mm race wires
*Taylor fire sleeves to heat shield the spark plug cable boots
*EVERY sensor in the computer system loop has been replace with a new A/C Delco units within the past 2 years- everything is perfect. A/C delco sensors and module are the best money can buy. They have great insulation against heat and will out perform anything else in the short and long run- don't ever buy any other brand.
*3 years ago I had a new 2.8 GM crate motor put into it (not rebuilt) It has currently about 41,000 on it.(as of 7/05)
*I run a longer oilfilter thanks to header clearance, 1/2qt more oil volume now in motor due to larger filter
*3.4L 60*V6 bolck on engine stand bored to 3.5l (in process of custom build)
*MobilOne full synthetic 15W50 oil in every car I drive.
*40below and swimming pool ("treated") water in the cooling system
*Deleted the TB coolant lines entirely for ease of plenum removal.
* 13 degree timing advance. stock is 10*
*redid the headliner
*LaCarrera polished 4-spoke steering wheel and polished billet hub with black bowtie engraved horn insert.
*Pioneer 1.5din CD player reciever unit- no amps. This unit doesn't need it. It has much much better sound than the factory ERS system. Amps add too much weight anyways- I'm into handling so I personally don't care for that crap in a car. I have a home system that will drowned out any ******* neighbor playing their crappy thump thump music in the rare case that happens in my neighborhood. Loud music doesn't belong in an automobile (My personal opinion) One need to listen to the noises your car is telling you when you drive- especially when pressing a car (A big tip for novice drivers.)
*Sylvainia Silverstar headlamps both low and high beams
*Triple edge lifetime wiperblades
*Personalized license plate reading: ON A RAIL
*Autolite plugs
*Optima "yellow" top battery ("Reds" are crap, they can not deep cycle and will ruin if discharged then jumpstarted)
*Does the matching painted floorjack count? I was bored
*Momo Street Racer GT recliner seats (Black/grey bead trim)http://www.momousa.com/product_view....ping.jpg&id=62
*Momo adjustable slider seat brackets (specific made for 3rdgen Camaro factory mounts)
*Dynamat sound deadening and heat insulation floorboard including rear seat area- purposely added lower roll weight below the roll axis to counter positive roll aspects and improve ride quality weight ration sprung to unsprung- as well as the normal sound deadening benefit
*ACC deluxe carpet kit
*Hurst dual gate shifter
*Hurst pistol grip
*AGR quick ratio 12:1 steering box with billet aluminum retainer plates
* Custom steering shaft made up of Flaming River solid swivel joints and telescopic shaft- stainless steel.
*Custom fabric headliner
*Custom fabric door panels
*factory aluminum front bumper support
*Factory fiberglass hood (82-83) "not yet installed" Pending installation- might not use if a better aftermarket one comes out before I need new paint
There is actually alot more I can add, but youg et the point. So much work in custom suspesnion setup. taking apart, altering, putting back together- and again anad again and fabricating then grinding...you get the point. This lists most of the basic stuff people know about- alot of stuff that is missing I have finaaly disclose on here ove rthe past few years so people have a better understanding of what I actually did to this car that was so unique in fixing alot of the GM design engineering flaws
Last edited by SlickTrackGod; 10-14-2012 at 02:05 PM.
10-14-2012, 02:08 PM
#56
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Car: '89 Formula
Engine: LS2
Transmission: 4L65E
Axle/Gears: MW 3.42 12 Bolt
Re: Bad Alignment
This is what I suspected, blindly poking at...the very rapidly part...
"With softer springs in passive loading of an inside corner wheel, the weight transfer and thus increase of wheel rate (and here's the kicker) migrates the roll center off center chassis laterally to the outsde wheel very rapidly- THUS yawing the roll axis of the car and leveraging the weight of chassis to not teeter totter over from the inside rear towrds the outside front."
Then I was trying to figure out the difference between fr roll couple & rear roll couple. Makes since that a difference works for a lighter nosed - better weight distributed car.
I prefer tight under braking, so I'll have to go from there.
Always a good read, Dean!
"With softer springs in passive loading of an inside corner wheel, the weight transfer and thus increase of wheel rate (and here's the kicker) migrates the roll center off center chassis laterally to the outsde wheel very rapidly- THUS yawing the roll axis of the car and leveraging the weight of chassis to not teeter totter over from the inside rear towrds the outside front."
Then I was trying to figure out the difference between fr roll couple & rear roll couple. Makes since that a difference works for a lighter nosed - better weight distributed car.
I prefer tight under braking, so I'll have to go from there.
Always a good read, Dean!
10-15-2012, 12:11 AM
#57
Re: Bad Alignment
This is what I suspected, blindly poking at...the very rapidly part...
"With softer springs in passive loading of an inside corner wheel, the weight transfer and thus increase of wheel rate (and here's the kicker) migrates the roll center off center chassis laterally to the outsde wheel very rapidly- THUS yawing the roll axis of the car and leveraging the weight of chassis to not teeter totter over from the inside rear towrds the outside front."
Then I was trying to figure out the difference between fr roll couple & rear roll couple. Makes since that a difference works for a lighter nosed - better weight distributed car.
I prefer tight under braking, so I'll have to go from there.
Always a good read, Dean!
"With softer springs in passive loading of an inside corner wheel, the weight transfer and thus increase of wheel rate (and here's the kicker) migrates the roll center off center chassis laterally to the outsde wheel very rapidly- THUS yawing the roll axis of the car and leveraging the weight of chassis to not teeter totter over from the inside rear towrds the outside front."
Then I was trying to figure out the difference between fr roll couple & rear roll couple. Makes since that a difference works for a lighter nosed - better weight distributed car.
I prefer tight under braking, so I'll have to go from there.
Always a good read, Dean!
What I mean was "With the softer extended progressive spring rate on the inside corner wheel, the weight transfer and thus increase of wheel rate (and here's the kicker) migrates the roll center off center chassis laterally to the outsde wheel very rapidly-
10-16-2012, 06:32 PM
#59
Supreme Member
Thread Starter
Re: Bad Alignment
I returned to the alignment shop after work and had a talk with the tech and the service manager.
I explained to both of them very civil like the situation and what I needed either an alignment with the specs I gave them or a refund. I was very calm and employed yes sir/no sir but still very assertive about my conditions.
They initially wanted to just give me a refund but I told them I wasn't going to all this trouble just to get a free alignment so if they could dial in the specs I provided I would be satisfied. In hindsight, I should have just taken the refund (I'll explain why in a minute) and ran like a bat out of hell to a different alignment shop.
Since I would be banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain to them that the factory provided the wrong specs for these cars, I used the modified suspension which they were convinced was the problem as leverage. To my surprise, after explaining to them that I was aware they were not liable for an alignment with non factory specs, they went ahead and put it back on the rack.
He aligned the camber to -.08 on both sides and the toe to +.04 on both sides equally. The caster however is the part that has me scratching my head and the reason I say I should have just taken the refund. I told him I wanted +5 degrees on both sides (I really don't mind having to hold the wheel slightly to the left going down "normal" roads. I drive by feel anyways and keep my eyes on the road rather than on my steering wheel to admire my perfect alignment) which he tried to do. After showing them a photo of the strut tower with the strut mount removed since they were convinced they would have to grind the non existent caster adjustment slots into the car
, he tried to adjust the caster and this is where I began scratching my head.
In the photo you saw from the last alignment, the caster was about +3.8 on both sides. This was with the mounting plate stud roughly in the center of the caster slot. This time, he adjusted the caster slots as far as they would go and I only ended up with +3.3 on the left and +3.4 on the right. I really didn't worry too much about it since everyone says the best specs for performance handling are "As much positive caster as you can get" (With the factory strut mounts anyways), but something there doesn't add up. The alignment numbers were also a little different from the numbers it came off the rack with just 2 days before.
Final verdict is the car feels LOADS better. I took it for a country road test drive and it did impressively well. The steering is very responsive now and I no longer get that disconcerting feeling trying to keep the car straight going down the highway. The front tires also don't squeal like a stuck pig when powering through a sharp turn anymore.
There is a *slight* feeling of slop at dead center but honestly I attribute that to a 170k mile gearbox.
The cross SAI IIRC was -4.3.
I explained to both of them very civil like the situation and what I needed either an alignment with the specs I gave them or a refund. I was very calm and employed yes sir/no sir but still very assertive about my conditions.
They initially wanted to just give me a refund but I told them I wasn't going to all this trouble just to get a free alignment so if they could dial in the specs I provided I would be satisfied. In hindsight, I should have just taken the refund (I'll explain why in a minute) and ran like a bat out of hell to a different alignment shop.
Since I would be banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain to them that the factory provided the wrong specs for these cars, I used the modified suspension which they were convinced was the problem as leverage. To my surprise, after explaining to them that I was aware they were not liable for an alignment with non factory specs, they went ahead and put it back on the rack.
He aligned the camber to -.08 on both sides and the toe to +.04 on both sides equally. The caster however is the part that has me scratching my head and the reason I say I should have just taken the refund. I told him I wanted +5 degrees on both sides (I really don't mind having to hold the wheel slightly to the left going down "normal" roads. I drive by feel anyways and keep my eyes on the road rather than on my steering wheel to admire my perfect alignment) which he tried to do. After showing them a photo of the strut tower with the strut mount removed since they were convinced they would have to grind the non existent caster adjustment slots into the car
, he tried to adjust the caster and this is where I began scratching my head.In the photo you saw from the last alignment, the caster was about +3.8 on both sides. This was with the mounting plate stud roughly in the center of the caster slot. This time, he adjusted the caster slots as far as they would go and I only ended up with +3.3 on the left and +3.4 on the right. I really didn't worry too much about it since everyone says the best specs for performance handling are "As much positive caster as you can get" (With the factory strut mounts anyways), but something there doesn't add up. The alignment numbers were also a little different from the numbers it came off the rack with just 2 days before.
Final verdict is the car feels LOADS better. I took it for a country road test drive and it did impressively well. The steering is very responsive now and I no longer get that disconcerting feeling trying to keep the car straight going down the highway. The front tires also don't squeal like a stuck pig when powering through a sharp turn anymore.
There is a *slight* feeling of slop at dead center but honestly I attribute that to a 170k mile gearbox.
The cross SAI IIRC was -4.3.
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