Sway Bars Discussion
03-26-2013, 06:53 PM
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Car: 1982 Camaro
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Sway Bars Discussion
Hello,
I have noticed that there has been very little good discussions about sway bars on this forum. I would like to see an in-depth discussion; pros and cons about certain sway bars, spring/shock combos with certain sway bars. Hollow vs Solid. After market vs Stock combos. Combos that work for you. Etc.
I have been an avid racer all my life and I have raced everything from flat track motorcycles to dirt modifieds. I have recently decided to move into autocross and road race. Enough about me.
Let the discussion begin!
I have noticed that there has been very little good discussions about sway bars on this forum. I would like to see an in-depth discussion; pros and cons about certain sway bars, spring/shock combos with certain sway bars. Hollow vs Solid. After market vs Stock combos. Combos that work for you. Etc.
I have been an avid racer all my life and I have raced everything from flat track motorcycles to dirt modifieds. I have recently decided to move into autocross and road race. Enough about me.
Let the discussion begin!
03-26-2013, 06:55 PM
#2
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Car: 1982 Camaro
Engine: LTX Carb
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Re: Sway Bars Discussion
Here are some basic info, I took from the suspension sticky.
Springs and Sway Bars
Springs...lower isn't better unless you have the spring rates to back it up, especially when it reduces your suspension compression travel too much. The right spring rate and ride height with the right shocks makes a big difference. With sway bars, the biggest you can get isn't necessarily the best; finding a balanced set of bars for your car is very important. For example, my 25.4mm rear bar was too big and caused the car to over-steer (the back wants to swing out and pass the front) instead of under-steer (the tendency for the front to plow straight ahead), especially under throttle.
Sway Bars & Bushings:
Odds are, yours are shot. Replacing them with rubber is an idea, but in most cases the polyurethane are cheaper (at least in my experience). They also effectively increase the size of the sway bars- increasing the stiffness of the bushings acts in a similar fashion to going up slightly in sway bar diameter. There is also the option of upgrading sway bars. You can get GM sway bars or aftermarket pieces. The advantage of the GM bars is the cost- they are usually readily available and cheaper than aftermarket pieces. You can usually get 2-5 GM bars for the cost of one aftermarket, but you'll need to get bushings for them. Sway bars are a great tuning aid for handling, so having several is a good idea. There are several combinations of sway bars in use. Some are 36/24, 36/21, 34/21 and so on. The best way to determine what you like and what your car ‘likes’ is to get several sway bars and try multiple combinations. There is no magic combination or set of bars for every car out there - every car is different and so is every driver.
Springs and Sway Bars
Springs...lower isn't better unless you have the spring rates to back it up, especially when it reduces your suspension compression travel too much. The right spring rate and ride height with the right shocks makes a big difference. With sway bars, the biggest you can get isn't necessarily the best; finding a balanced set of bars for your car is very important. For example, my 25.4mm rear bar was too big and caused the car to over-steer (the back wants to swing out and pass the front) instead of under-steer (the tendency for the front to plow straight ahead), especially under throttle.
Sway Bars & Bushings:
Odds are, yours are shot. Replacing them with rubber is an idea, but in most cases the polyurethane are cheaper (at least in my experience). They also effectively increase the size of the sway bars- increasing the stiffness of the bushings acts in a similar fashion to going up slightly in sway bar diameter. There is also the option of upgrading sway bars. You can get GM sway bars or aftermarket pieces. The advantage of the GM bars is the cost- they are usually readily available and cheaper than aftermarket pieces. You can usually get 2-5 GM bars for the cost of one aftermarket, but you'll need to get bushings for them. Sway bars are a great tuning aid for handling, so having several is a good idea. There are several combinations of sway bars in use. Some are 36/24, 36/21, 34/21 and so on. The best way to determine what you like and what your car ‘likes’ is to get several sway bars and try multiple combinations. There is no magic combination or set of bars for every car out there - every car is different and so is every driver.
03-26-2013, 07:06 PM
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Re: Sway Bars Discussion
Here is some more I found that helps describe some of the information in simple terms.
What do swaybars do?
Cliffnotes: Swaybars, also known as anti-roll bars or stabilizer bars, limit the independence of your suspension in order to change the amount of body roll the car will exhibit in sharp turns. This can have a noticeable impact on the car’s overall balance (i.e. its tendency to oversteer or understeer).
Hotchkis Tuning explains briefly:
Quote:
One very potent product that yields a very good ‘bang-for-the-buck’ is a stabilizer Bar, or more commonly referred to as an Anti-Roll Bar (ARB). One probably asks, “Okay, just what is it, and what does it do?” An ARB is a round piece of metal, either solid or tubular, that connects both the left and the right sides of the suspension together. Typically cars will have one of these bars in the front and one in the rear of the vehicle. The bars react to body roll, or lean, by twisting. During a corner, the body of the vehicle tries to ‘lean’ or ‘fall’ over. Each ARB twists against the ‘lean’, causing a reaction force that equates to a ‘lifting’ force on the outside body, and a ‘downward’ force on the inside body. This helps to even the pressure generated by a corner, across both tires. The even pressure helps improve handling by making more traction or ‘grip’ available to the driver.
HowStuffWorks has a good overview of the basic tech as well:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question432.htm
Quote:
Stabilizer bars are part of a car's suspension system. They are sometimes also called anti-sway bars or anti-roll bars. Their purpose in life is to try to keep the car's body from "rolling" in a sharp turn.
Think about what happens to a car in a sharp turn. If you are inside the car, you know that your body gets pulled toward the outside of the turn. The same thing is happening to all the parts of the car. So the part of the car on the outside of the turn gets pushed down toward the road and the part of the car on the inside of the turn rises up. In other words, the body of the car "rolls" 10 or 20 or 30 degrees toward the outside of the turn. If you take a turn fast enough, the tires on the inside of the turn actually rise off the road and the car flips over.
Roll is bad. It tends to put more weight on the outside tires and less weigh on the inside tires, reducing traction. It also messes up steering. What you would like is for the body of the car to remain flat through a turn so that the weight stays distributed evenly on all four tires.
A stabilizer bar tries to keep the car's body flat by moving force from one side of the body to another. To picture how a stabilizer bar works, imagine a metal rod that is an inch or two (2 to 5 cm) in diameter. If your front tires are 5 feet (1.6 meters) apart, make the rod about 4 feet long. Attach the rod to the frame of the car in front of the front tires, but attach it with bushings in such a way that it can rotate. Now attach arms from the rod to the front suspension member on both sides.
When you go into a turn now, the front suspension member of the outside of the turn gets pushed upward. The arm of the sway bar gets pushed upward, and this applies torsion to the rod. The torsion them moves the arm at the other end of the rod, and this causes the suspension on the other side of the car to compress as well. The car's body tends to stay flat in the turn.
If you don't have a stabilizer bar, you tend to have a lot of trouble with body roll in a turn. If you have too much stabilizer bar, you tend to lose independence between the suspension members on both sides of the car. When one wheel hits a bump, the stabilizer bar transmits the bump to the other side of the car as well, which is not what you want. The ideal is to find a setting that reduces body roll but does not hurt the independence of the tires.
Cliffnotes: Swaybars, also known as anti-roll bars or stabilizer bars, limit the independence of your suspension in order to change the amount of body roll the car will exhibit in sharp turns. This can have a noticeable impact on the car’s overall balance (i.e. its tendency to oversteer or understeer).
Hotchkis Tuning explains briefly:
Quote:
One very potent product that yields a very good ‘bang-for-the-buck’ is a stabilizer Bar, or more commonly referred to as an Anti-Roll Bar (ARB). One probably asks, “Okay, just what is it, and what does it do?” An ARB is a round piece of metal, either solid or tubular, that connects both the left and the right sides of the suspension together. Typically cars will have one of these bars in the front and one in the rear of the vehicle. The bars react to body roll, or lean, by twisting. During a corner, the body of the vehicle tries to ‘lean’ or ‘fall’ over. Each ARB twists against the ‘lean’, causing a reaction force that equates to a ‘lifting’ force on the outside body, and a ‘downward’ force on the inside body. This helps to even the pressure generated by a corner, across both tires. The even pressure helps improve handling by making more traction or ‘grip’ available to the driver.
HowStuffWorks has a good overview of the basic tech as well:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question432.htm
Quote:
Stabilizer bars are part of a car's suspension system. They are sometimes also called anti-sway bars or anti-roll bars. Their purpose in life is to try to keep the car's body from "rolling" in a sharp turn.
Think about what happens to a car in a sharp turn. If you are inside the car, you know that your body gets pulled toward the outside of the turn. The same thing is happening to all the parts of the car. So the part of the car on the outside of the turn gets pushed down toward the road and the part of the car on the inside of the turn rises up. In other words, the body of the car "rolls" 10 or 20 or 30 degrees toward the outside of the turn. If you take a turn fast enough, the tires on the inside of the turn actually rise off the road and the car flips over.
Roll is bad. It tends to put more weight on the outside tires and less weigh on the inside tires, reducing traction. It also messes up steering. What you would like is for the body of the car to remain flat through a turn so that the weight stays distributed evenly on all four tires.
A stabilizer bar tries to keep the car's body flat by moving force from one side of the body to another. To picture how a stabilizer bar works, imagine a metal rod that is an inch or two (2 to 5 cm) in diameter. If your front tires are 5 feet (1.6 meters) apart, make the rod about 4 feet long. Attach the rod to the frame of the car in front of the front tires, but attach it with bushings in such a way that it can rotate. Now attach arms from the rod to the front suspension member on both sides.
When you go into a turn now, the front suspension member of the outside of the turn gets pushed upward. The arm of the sway bar gets pushed upward, and this applies torsion to the rod. The torsion them moves the arm at the other end of the rod, and this causes the suspension on the other side of the car to compress as well. The car's body tends to stay flat in the turn.
If you don't have a stabilizer bar, you tend to have a lot of trouble with body roll in a turn. If you have too much stabilizer bar, you tend to lose independence between the suspension members on both sides of the car. When one wheel hits a bump, the stabilizer bar transmits the bump to the other side of the car as well, which is not what you want. The ideal is to find a setting that reduces body roll but does not hurt the independence of the tires.
Which manufacturer is best?
Swaybars are pretty much swaybars. You pick them based on solid vs. hollow, what diameter is appropriate for your application, and whether it fits your car. That’s about it. Really there are only three things that can make a swaybar “bad”:
1. If you choose the wrong one for your application.
2. If it doesn’t fit your car properly (i.e. it requires hacking to fit, or hits your exhaust, or whatever)
3. If it isn’t fabricated well and is known to break.
What is better, hollow or solid?
There is no “better”.
The advantages of hollow bars are:
1. They are lighter (less unsprung weight).
Here’s a document by Hotchkis explaining their philosophy:
http://www.hotchkis.net/product_development.html
The disadvantages of hollow bars:
1. They are less stiff for a given diameter. A 29mm solid bar is stiffer than a 29mm hollow bar. The 32mm front swaybar is equivalent to a 29.6mm solid bar. This depends on the wall thickness of the bar, so without knowing that you cannot automatically apply a magic number to a hollow bar to figure out its equivalent solid bar.
2. There is more risk of the bar fatiguing. This has happened to some hollow bars, but to the best of my understanding it was isolated to only a handful of cases.
3. They are usually more expensive than the equivalent solid bar.
Which manufacturer is best?
Swaybars are pretty much swaybars. You pick them based on solid vs. hollow, what diameter is appropriate for your application, and whether it fits your car. That’s about it. Really there are only three things that can make a swaybar “bad”:
1. If you choose the wrong one for your application.
2. If it doesn’t fit your car properly (i.e. it requires hacking to fit, or hits your exhaust, or whatever)
3. If it isn’t fabricated well and is known to break.
What is better, hollow or solid?
There is no “better”.
The advantages of hollow bars are:
1. They are lighter (less unsprung weight).
Here’s a document by Hotchkis explaining their philosophy:
http://www.hotchkis.net/product_development.html
The disadvantages of hollow bars:
1. There aren’t very many choices.
2. There is more risk of the bar fatiguing. This has happened to some hollow bars, but to the best of my understanding it was isolated to only a handful of cases.
3. They are usually more expensive than the equivalent solid bar.
What do swaybars do?
Cliffnotes: Swaybars, also known as anti-roll bars or stabilizer bars, limit the independence of your suspension in order to change the amount of body roll the car will exhibit in sharp turns. This can have a noticeable impact on the car’s overall balance (i.e. its tendency to oversteer or understeer).
Hotchkis Tuning explains briefly:
Quote:
One very potent product that yields a very good ‘bang-for-the-buck’ is a stabilizer Bar, or more commonly referred to as an Anti-Roll Bar (ARB). One probably asks, “Okay, just what is it, and what does it do?” An ARB is a round piece of metal, either solid or tubular, that connects both the left and the right sides of the suspension together. Typically cars will have one of these bars in the front and one in the rear of the vehicle. The bars react to body roll, or lean, by twisting. During a corner, the body of the vehicle tries to ‘lean’ or ‘fall’ over. Each ARB twists against the ‘lean’, causing a reaction force that equates to a ‘lifting’ force on the outside body, and a ‘downward’ force on the inside body. This helps to even the pressure generated by a corner, across both tires. The even pressure helps improve handling by making more traction or ‘grip’ available to the driver.
HowStuffWorks has a good overview of the basic tech as well:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question432.htm
Quote:
Stabilizer bars are part of a car's suspension system. They are sometimes also called anti-sway bars or anti-roll bars. Their purpose in life is to try to keep the car's body from "rolling" in a sharp turn.
Think about what happens to a car in a sharp turn. If you are inside the car, you know that your body gets pulled toward the outside of the turn. The same thing is happening to all the parts of the car. So the part of the car on the outside of the turn gets pushed down toward the road and the part of the car on the inside of the turn rises up. In other words, the body of the car "rolls" 10 or 20 or 30 degrees toward the outside of the turn. If you take a turn fast enough, the tires on the inside of the turn actually rise off the road and the car flips over.
Roll is bad. It tends to put more weight on the outside tires and less weigh on the inside tires, reducing traction. It also messes up steering. What you would like is for the body of the car to remain flat through a turn so that the weight stays distributed evenly on all four tires.
A stabilizer bar tries to keep the car's body flat by moving force from one side of the body to another. To picture how a stabilizer bar works, imagine a metal rod that is an inch or two (2 to 5 cm) in diameter. If your front tires are 5 feet (1.6 meters) apart, make the rod about 4 feet long. Attach the rod to the frame of the car in front of the front tires, but attach it with bushings in such a way that it can rotate. Now attach arms from the rod to the front suspension member on both sides.
When you go into a turn now, the front suspension member of the outside of the turn gets pushed upward. The arm of the sway bar gets pushed upward, and this applies torsion to the rod. The torsion them moves the arm at the other end of the rod, and this causes the suspension on the other side of the car to compress as well. The car's body tends to stay flat in the turn.
If you don't have a stabilizer bar, you tend to have a lot of trouble with body roll in a turn. If you have too much stabilizer bar, you tend to lose independence between the suspension members on both sides of the car. When one wheel hits a bump, the stabilizer bar transmits the bump to the other side of the car as well, which is not what you want. The ideal is to find a setting that reduces body roll but does not hurt the independence of the tires.
Cliffnotes: Swaybars, also known as anti-roll bars or stabilizer bars, limit the independence of your suspension in order to change the amount of body roll the car will exhibit in sharp turns. This can have a noticeable impact on the car’s overall balance (i.e. its tendency to oversteer or understeer).
Hotchkis Tuning explains briefly:
Quote:
One very potent product that yields a very good ‘bang-for-the-buck’ is a stabilizer Bar, or more commonly referred to as an Anti-Roll Bar (ARB). One probably asks, “Okay, just what is it, and what does it do?” An ARB is a round piece of metal, either solid or tubular, that connects both the left and the right sides of the suspension together. Typically cars will have one of these bars in the front and one in the rear of the vehicle. The bars react to body roll, or lean, by twisting. During a corner, the body of the vehicle tries to ‘lean’ or ‘fall’ over. Each ARB twists against the ‘lean’, causing a reaction force that equates to a ‘lifting’ force on the outside body, and a ‘downward’ force on the inside body. This helps to even the pressure generated by a corner, across both tires. The even pressure helps improve handling by making more traction or ‘grip’ available to the driver.
HowStuffWorks has a good overview of the basic tech as well:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question432.htm
Quote:
Stabilizer bars are part of a car's suspension system. They are sometimes also called anti-sway bars or anti-roll bars. Their purpose in life is to try to keep the car's body from "rolling" in a sharp turn.
Think about what happens to a car in a sharp turn. If you are inside the car, you know that your body gets pulled toward the outside of the turn. The same thing is happening to all the parts of the car. So the part of the car on the outside of the turn gets pushed down toward the road and the part of the car on the inside of the turn rises up. In other words, the body of the car "rolls" 10 or 20 or 30 degrees toward the outside of the turn. If you take a turn fast enough, the tires on the inside of the turn actually rise off the road and the car flips over.
Roll is bad. It tends to put more weight on the outside tires and less weigh on the inside tires, reducing traction. It also messes up steering. What you would like is for the body of the car to remain flat through a turn so that the weight stays distributed evenly on all four tires.
A stabilizer bar tries to keep the car's body flat by moving force from one side of the body to another. To picture how a stabilizer bar works, imagine a metal rod that is an inch or two (2 to 5 cm) in diameter. If your front tires are 5 feet (1.6 meters) apart, make the rod about 4 feet long. Attach the rod to the frame of the car in front of the front tires, but attach it with bushings in such a way that it can rotate. Now attach arms from the rod to the front suspension member on both sides.
When you go into a turn now, the front suspension member of the outside of the turn gets pushed upward. The arm of the sway bar gets pushed upward, and this applies torsion to the rod. The torsion them moves the arm at the other end of the rod, and this causes the suspension on the other side of the car to compress as well. The car's body tends to stay flat in the turn.
If you don't have a stabilizer bar, you tend to have a lot of trouble with body roll in a turn. If you have too much stabilizer bar, you tend to lose independence between the suspension members on both sides of the car. When one wheel hits a bump, the stabilizer bar transmits the bump to the other side of the car as well, which is not what you want. The ideal is to find a setting that reduces body roll but does not hurt the independence of the tires.
Which manufacturer is best?
Swaybars are pretty much swaybars. You pick them based on solid vs. hollow, what diameter is appropriate for your application, and whether it fits your car. That’s about it. Really there are only three things that can make a swaybar “bad”:
1. If you choose the wrong one for your application.
2. If it doesn’t fit your car properly (i.e. it requires hacking to fit, or hits your exhaust, or whatever)
3. If it isn’t fabricated well and is known to break.
What is better, hollow or solid?
There is no “better”.
The advantages of hollow bars are:
1. They are lighter (less unsprung weight).
Here’s a document by Hotchkis explaining their philosophy:
http://www.hotchkis.net/product_development.html
The disadvantages of hollow bars:
1. They are less stiff for a given diameter. A 29mm solid bar is stiffer than a 29mm hollow bar. The 32mm front swaybar is equivalent to a 29.6mm solid bar. This depends on the wall thickness of the bar, so without knowing that you cannot automatically apply a magic number to a hollow bar to figure out its equivalent solid bar.
2. There is more risk of the bar fatiguing. This has happened to some hollow bars, but to the best of my understanding it was isolated to only a handful of cases.
3. They are usually more expensive than the equivalent solid bar.
Which manufacturer is best?
Swaybars are pretty much swaybars. You pick them based on solid vs. hollow, what diameter is appropriate for your application, and whether it fits your car. That’s about it. Really there are only three things that can make a swaybar “bad”:
1. If you choose the wrong one for your application.
2. If it doesn’t fit your car properly (i.e. it requires hacking to fit, or hits your exhaust, or whatever)
3. If it isn’t fabricated well and is known to break.
What is better, hollow or solid?
There is no “better”.
The advantages of hollow bars are:
1. They are lighter (less unsprung weight).
Here’s a document by Hotchkis explaining their philosophy:
http://www.hotchkis.net/product_development.html
The disadvantages of hollow bars:
1. There aren’t very many choices.
2. There is more risk of the bar fatiguing. This has happened to some hollow bars, but to the best of my understanding it was isolated to only a handful of cases.
3. They are usually more expensive than the equivalent solid bar.
03-26-2013, 07:16 PM
#4
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Re: Sway Bars Discussion
Sounds like you have it pretty well figured out already. Here is what I ran on mine for road course racing for a few seasons and was very balanced:
Front sway bar 34mm
Front springs 750 in/lb
Using drop spindles
No rear sway bar
Rear springs 175 in/lb
Rear panhard bar in the stock location.
Rear shocks set at full rebound damping
I have swapped in numerous rear bars and all were too large and lifted the inside tire in cornering and caused oversteer. No bar at all on the rear was a very neutral and good handling car. I had also tried the 36mm bar up front and felt that the 34 gave the car more front grip.
My personal opinion, GM had enough different size factory sway bars that I never saw any reason to buy aftermarket.
Front sway bar 34mm
Front springs 750 in/lb
Using drop spindles
No rear sway bar
Rear springs 175 in/lb
Rear panhard bar in the stock location.
Rear shocks set at full rebound damping
I have swapped in numerous rear bars and all were too large and lifted the inside tire in cornering and caused oversteer. No bar at all on the rear was a very neutral and good handling car. I had also tried the 36mm bar up front and felt that the 34 gave the car more front grip.
My personal opinion, GM had enough different size factory sway bars that I never saw any reason to buy aftermarket.
03-26-2013, 07:32 PM
#5
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Car: 1982 Camaro
Engine: LTX Carb
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Posi
Re: Sway Bars Discussion
Thank you this is for everyone, I have a pretty good handle on them, I want to share everyone's insight on the subject, because it can be a difficult idea to grasp.
I have been wanting to try a different sway bar combo to see how the car would feel. I was thinking like a like a 27mm front and 19mm rear with stiff front springs and the all the shocks tied down. Just out of curiosity, haha.
I have been wanting to try a different sway bar combo to see how the car would feel. I was thinking like a like a 27mm front and 19mm rear with stiff front springs and the all the shocks tied down. Just out of curiosity, haha.
03-26-2013, 07:35 PM
#6
Member
Re: Sway Bars Discussion
I have swapped in numerous rear bars and all were too large and lifted the inside tire in cornering and caused oversteer. No bar at all on the rear was a very neutral and good handling car. I had also tried the 36mm bar up front and felt that the 34 gave the car more front grip.
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03-26-2013, 09:49 PM
#8
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Car: 88 Trans Am GTA
Engine: 5.1L Gen III
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Re: Sway Bars Discussion
For a strut suspension bigger=better for the front.
I believe the 35mm solid is slightly stiffer than the 36 factory hollow.
I believe the 35mm solid is slightly stiffer than the 36 factory hollow.
03-27-2013, 03:47 PM
#10
Re: Sway Bars Discussion
Sounds like you have it pretty well figured out already. Here is what I ran on mine for road course racing for a few seasons and was very balanced:
Front sway bar 34mm
Front springs 750 in/lb
Using drop spindles
No rear sway bar
Rear springs 175 in/lb
Rear panhard bar in the stock location.
Rear shocks set at full rebound damping
I have swapped in numerous rear bars and all were too large and lifted the inside tire in cornering and caused oversteer. No bar at all on the rear was a very neutral and good handling car. I had also tried the 36mm bar up front and felt that the 34 gave the car more front grip.
My personal opinion, GM had enough different size factory sway bars that I never saw any reason to buy aftermarket.
Front sway bar 34mm
Front springs 750 in/lb
Using drop spindles
No rear sway bar
Rear springs 175 in/lb
Rear panhard bar in the stock location.
Rear shocks set at full rebound damping
I have swapped in numerous rear bars and all were too large and lifted the inside tire in cornering and caused oversteer. No bar at all on the rear was a very neutral and good handling car. I had also tried the 36mm bar up front and felt that the 34 gave the car more front grip.
My personal opinion, GM had enough different size factory sway bars that I never saw any reason to buy aftermarket.
03-28-2013, 08:08 AM
#11
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Re: Sway Bars Discussion
I think one thing that has yet to be discussed is that the Firebird had softer springs and larger sway bars, the IROC had smaller sway bars, but stiffer springs (a harder ride to boot). This was true until 1990.
The IROC also had the "Wonderbar" that tied the front of the car together to stiffen the front sub frame. On top of that the 1LE cars had more brackets that increased the stiffness of the front sheet metal as well that also aided in handling.
With any suspension system there is a certain amount of body flex that takes away from what the suspension "should" be doing. The stiffer the car, the more brackets, braces, pieces and parts all add up to more weight, and more cost. I have the opportunity to speak to engineers I occasionally run into. The most interesting fella, I met was the suspension engineer for Buick. What I found most interesting is a car I used to own originally came with Goodyear Tires, and I had installed Michelin tires because I like the ride better and I think they are better tires. He asked why I went with Michelin tires? He said that the Olds got Michelins, and the Buick got Goodyear tires because the engineers designed the suspension for those tires. He also went into how even the wheels for a particular car are engineered (today) for a particular car. So when you change out your tires and wheels, you effectively change how the car was designed to ride and handle. I actually think he was disappointed that I changed how he wanted the car to originally ride.
If I was road racing, I would first get a strut tower brace, find all of the stock brace pieces or make my own, install a wonderbar, and start from there. Once you have the car tight, then start messing with the sway bars.
From what I understand was the Players series ended up going with 36mm front and 23mm rear sway bars. The 24 sway bars, (like mentioned before) caused under steer.
Another thing you might consider is getting adjustable shocks and struts, I did that to my car and could not believe the difference it made.
The IROC also had the "Wonderbar" that tied the front of the car together to stiffen the front sub frame. On top of that the 1LE cars had more brackets that increased the stiffness of the front sheet metal as well that also aided in handling.
With any suspension system there is a certain amount of body flex that takes away from what the suspension "should" be doing. The stiffer the car, the more brackets, braces, pieces and parts all add up to more weight, and more cost. I have the opportunity to speak to engineers I occasionally run into. The most interesting fella, I met was the suspension engineer for Buick. What I found most interesting is a car I used to own originally came with Goodyear Tires, and I had installed Michelin tires because I like the ride better and I think they are better tires. He asked why I went with Michelin tires? He said that the Olds got Michelins, and the Buick got Goodyear tires because the engineers designed the suspension for those tires. He also went into how even the wheels for a particular car are engineered (today) for a particular car. So when you change out your tires and wheels, you effectively change how the car was designed to ride and handle. I actually think he was disappointed that I changed how he wanted the car to originally ride.
If I was road racing, I would first get a strut tower brace, find all of the stock brace pieces or make my own, install a wonderbar, and start from there. Once you have the car tight, then start messing with the sway bars.
From what I understand was the Players series ended up going with 36mm front and 23mm rear sway bars. The 24 sway bars, (like mentioned before) caused under steer.
Another thing you might consider is getting adjustable shocks and struts, I did that to my car and could not believe the difference it made.
03-28-2013, 09:43 AM
#12
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Car: 1982 Camaro
Engine: LTX Carb
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.42 Posi
Re: Sway Bars Discussion
There were the triangular braces on the GTA's and Iroc's from the front K-Member to the front frame horns on both sides, some cars only got one by the steering box.
03-28-2013, 10:08 AM
#13
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Location: Doghouse ······································ Car: 1989 Formula 350 Vert Engine: 350 L98 Transmission: 700R4 Axle/Gears: B&W 3.27
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Car: 87 Formula T-Top, 87 Formula HT
Engine: 5.1L TPI, 5.0L TPI
Transmission: 700R4, M5
Axle/Gears: Sag 3.73, B&W 3.45
Re: Sway Bars Discussion
I think my 87 Formula had both side too.
03-29-2013, 03:37 PM
#14
Re: Sway Bars Discussion
Sounds like you have it pretty well figured out already. Here is what I ran on mine for road course racing for a few seasons and was very balanced:
Front sway bar 34mm
Front springs 750 in/lb
Using drop spindles
No rear sway bar
Rear springs 175 in/lb
Rear panhard bar in the stock location.
Rear shocks set at full rebound damping
Front sway bar 34mm
Front springs 750 in/lb
Using drop spindles
No rear sway bar
Rear springs 175 in/lb
Rear panhard bar in the stock location.
Rear shocks set at full rebound damping
The IROC also had the "Wonderbar" that tied the front of the car together to stiffen the front sub frame. On top of that the 1LE cars had more brackets that increased the stiffness of the front sheet metal as well that also aided in handling.
From what I understand was the Players series ended up going with 36mm front and 23mm rear sway bars. The 24 sway bars, (like mentioned before) caused under steer.
I've never seen one that didn't have both that it wasn't fairly obvious that the other (or both) were removed at some point... If you remove them it's not uncommon to have the whole front end clunking from stuff moving around.
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