Worn steering gearbox
10-06-2013, 07:24 PM
#1
Worn steering gearbox
I spent an hour today playing with my steering system to find out where all my slop is. Traced everything back to the steering box. Its gotten to the point I dont think the car is safe at high speeds because it keeps randomly changing direction on me. I cant deal with it anymore.
So I need a new steering gearbox. Summit has 4 options, rockauto has more. But alot of these are remanufactured units. I read in some searches that the remanufactured boxes often have the same on-center slop that the old boxes we're removing have, because the remanufacturing companies don't replace the gears in the box that wear. Summit has an AGR box for $400, and a flaming river box for $600. Is that the only way Im going to get my steering to feel tight again? What is everyone else's experiences with remanufactured steering boxes? I saw a lot of really negative opinions in my searches, but most of those were from several years ago so Im not sure if anything has changed since then.
I just want my investment and focus on handling to be reflected in steering response, because as it is all of that stuff is just being wasted through sloppy wandery steering.
So I need a new steering gearbox. Summit has 4 options, rockauto has more. But alot of these are remanufactured units. I read in some searches that the remanufactured boxes often have the same on-center slop that the old boxes we're removing have, because the remanufacturing companies don't replace the gears in the box that wear. Summit has an AGR box for $400, and a flaming river box for $600. Is that the only way Im going to get my steering to feel tight again? What is everyone else's experiences with remanufactured steering boxes? I saw a lot of really negative opinions in my searches, but most of those were from several years ago so Im not sure if anything has changed since then.
I just want my investment and focus on handling to be reflected in steering response, because as it is all of that stuff is just being wasted through sloppy wandery steering.
10-06-2013, 08:39 PM
#2
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
Steering gears basically NEVER "wear out".
On top of that, they are SUPER EEEEEEEZY and CHEEEEEEEP to rebuild. Which mostly consists of replacing the rubber and similar sealing parts, and putting it all back together like it belongs, WITH the proper "adjustments" (which you could make to it without "rebuilding", but since "rebuilding" is SO CHEEEEEEEEEEEP and EEEEEEEEZY, it's like, why not)
Screw a bunch of buying one.
Go get yourself a "kit" and amaze yourself with your own powerz of renewal.
On top of that, they are SUPER EEEEEEEZY and CHEEEEEEEP to rebuild. Which mostly consists of replacing the rubber and similar sealing parts, and putting it all back together like it belongs, WITH the proper "adjustments" (which you could make to it without "rebuilding", but since "rebuilding" is SO CHEEEEEEEEEEEP and EEEEEEEEZY, it's like, why not)
Screw a bunch of buying one.
Go get yourself a "kit" and amaze yourself with your own powerz of renewal.
10-06-2013, 09:10 PM
#3
Re: Worn steering gearbox
If they're so easy to rebuild and that works so well why are there so many threads of guys who get remanufactured or rebuilt steering boxes from other companies and they end up being worse than the factory box they took out? If the gears dont wear, then what causes the massive slop in the box that I have? Why is it that some people say rebuilt steering boxes are just as sloppy as the old ones?
Basically, I just want a steering box that feels as tight as the rest of my steering system. I want it to steer like a modern car. I dont think Im gonig to be able to throw some seals at it and fix that since I dont know the first thing about what causes these issues and therefore what fixes them. And like I said, if it's so easy, then why all the horror stories? I was reading a thread earlier from a fellow who spent $600 on a Lee steering box and after 6 months it was worse than his factory one.
What's the secret? Im all ears but I just want it fixed. Whatever it takes to fix it I am willing to do. My suspension investments are worthless if the steering is this bad. I still would rather switch to the faster ratio z28 box, but if I buy a used one of those I can still rebuild it. But I'd rather just buy something that works.
Basically, I just want a steering box that feels as tight as the rest of my steering system. I want it to steer like a modern car. I dont think Im gonig to be able to throw some seals at it and fix that since I dont know the first thing about what causes these issues and therefore what fixes them. And like I said, if it's so easy, then why all the horror stories? I was reading a thread earlier from a fellow who spent $600 on a Lee steering box and after 6 months it was worse than his factory one.
What's the secret? Im all ears but I just want it fixed. Whatever it takes to fix it I am willing to do. My suspension investments are worthless if the steering is this bad. I still would rather switch to the faster ratio z28 box, but if I buy a used one of those I can still rebuild it. But I'd rather just buy something that works.
10-07-2013, 08:22 AM
#4
Re: Worn steering gearbox
Same issue here and this is my plan.......
in short, sofa's post in this thread
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...extremely.html
some more info in this one
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...-steering.html
Im going to do this soon. Just the adjustments, not the full rebuild.
Btw, I have about 10 degrees play at the steering wheel which is all in the box. I made the single easy adjustment couple of months ago to see what difference it made. It made none as far as play goes, just made the feel alittle better along with a better return to center. Just an FYI.
in short, sofa's post in this thread
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...extremely.html
some more info in this one
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...-steering.html
Im going to do this soon. Just the adjustments, not the full rebuild.
Btw, I have about 10 degrees play at the steering wheel which is all in the box. I made the single easy adjustment couple of months ago to see what difference it made. It made none as far as play goes, just made the feel alittle better along with a better return to center. Just an FYI.
Last edited by 3rdgenmaro; 10-07-2013 at 08:25 AM.
10-07-2013, 06:26 PM
#5
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
As far a show "other people" have so much trouble, I can't begin to guess. It's just not that hard.
There's really not anything in them that wears out, other than typical soft parts (seals and such). Cleaning all that up will fix the various moaning sounds and other weird behavior, and properly adjusting it while reassembling will fix the play.
It's not ever going to be like "modern" cars are; after all, it's about a 60 yr old design now, from back when circumstances and expectations were MUCH different than today. Like many other things about cars, we've come a long way, as a species, since those things first hit the street in the late 50s. But there's no reason it has to be sloppy or full of play, either, even though these cars more closely resemble the dinosaurs of the 50s and 60s mechanically, than they do "modern" cars.
There's really not anything in them that wears out, other than typical soft parts (seals and such). Cleaning all that up will fix the various moaning sounds and other weird behavior, and properly adjusting it while reassembling will fix the play.
It's not ever going to be like "modern" cars are; after all, it's about a 60 yr old design now, from back when circumstances and expectations were MUCH different than today. Like many other things about cars, we've come a long way, as a species, since those things first hit the street in the late 50s. But there's no reason it has to be sloppy or full of play, either, even though these cars more closely resemble the dinosaurs of the 50s and 60s mechanically, than they do "modern" cars.
10-07-2013, 10:38 PM
#6
Re: Worn steering gearbox
As far a show "other people" have so much trouble, I can't begin to guess. It's just not that hard.
There's really not anything in them that wears out, other than typical soft parts (seals and such). Cleaning all that up will fix the various moaning sounds and other weird behavior, and properly adjusting it while reassembling will fix the play.
It's not ever going to be like "modern" cars are; after all, it's about a 60 yr old design now, from back when circumstances and expectations were MUCH different than today. Like many other things about cars, we've come a long way, as a species, since those things first hit the street in the late 50s. But there's no reason it has to be sloppy or full of play, either, even though these cars more closely resemble the dinosaurs of the 50s and 60s mechanically, than they do "modern" cars.
There's really not anything in them that wears out, other than typical soft parts (seals and such). Cleaning all that up will fix the various moaning sounds and other weird behavior, and properly adjusting it while reassembling will fix the play.
It's not ever going to be like "modern" cars are; after all, it's about a 60 yr old design now, from back when circumstances and expectations were MUCH different than today. Like many other things about cars, we've come a long way, as a species, since those things first hit the street in the late 50s. But there's no reason it has to be sloppy or full of play, either, even though these cars more closely resemble the dinosaurs of the 50s and 60s mechanically, than they do "modern" cars.
Im not seeing much regarding what adjustments are supposed to be made. The closest I've seen to that is your post that 3rdgenmaro linked to.
So given that the gears themselves are not wear items (allegedly), how do you feel about just buying a junkyard steering box? (Remember I want the quick ratio box) I can buy a reman one for $100ish, and a junkyard one for $30-$100...
10-07-2013, 11:42 PM
#7
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
Mine has a little play on center (just part of the design), but I barely notice it now. Otherwise it is spot on- smooth and predictable.
Lee Manufacturing in Sun Valley, CA rebuilt it. They have been doing it for years.
Lee Manufacturing in Sun Valley, CA rebuilt it. They have been doing it for years.
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10-08-2013, 05:52 AM
#8
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
There is no "play on center" that's "part of the design". They didn't have it when new, shouldn't have it now.
You can do this, Infernal. It's just not that hard. Put all of that "hard" and "everybody screws it up" and all that out of your mind, and just do it. You'll be glad you did.
No problem with a junkyard one. Like anything else, get the best core you can, to start out with; no sense going to all that trouble on something that's inherently inferior to begin with.
You can do this, Infernal. It's just not that hard. Put all of that "hard" and "everybody screws it up" and all that out of your mind, and just do it. You'll be glad you did.
No problem with a junkyard one. Like anything else, get the best core you can, to start out with; no sense going to all that trouble on something that's inherently inferior to begin with.
10-08-2013, 07:01 AM
#9
Re: Worn steering gearbox
Well Im going to do what sofa said in that other link next weekend. I dont have any noises or leaks so Im not going to go with a rebuild, just and adjustment. I'll post up how things go with mine.
This was what sofa posted
"Best way to deal with that then, is to follow the PROPER adjustment method. Which is, disconnect the Pitman arm from the center link; loosen the out-in-the-open screw everybody loves to dink with until the Pitman shaft is floppy loose; back off the big sheet-metal jam nut for the adjustment that REALLY makes a difference, which is, the worm shaft preload one; back off that adjustment as well. Make sure the steering wheel requires essentially ZERO torque to turn; back off the worm preload until it gets that way. Then, tighten the worm shaft preload with a spanner wrench SLOWLY until the effort required to turn the wheel JUST BEGINS to increase (it will increase ALOT and rather SUDDENLY when the proper preload is reached and the Belleville washer inside there gets flattened, you want to get it just on the edge of starting to do that); tighten the jam nut; then repeat with the easy-to-get-to adjuster. You can watch the Pitman shaft and tighten its adjuster until there is no side-to-side motion of that shaft.
Most likely, the worm shaft adjuster is too loose now, and the other is too tight. That seems to be the most common way they get mis-adjusted"
One Question though Sofa about your instructions. When you say do the second (easy to get to ) adjustment, do you just do the 1/4 turn method others have posted where you turn it until it gets tight and then back off 1/4 turn or are you doing exactly like with the worm shaft preload and having someone slowly turn the steering wheel and you adjust it until the steering wheel gets resistance?
Thats the only part that confused me, probably something I would have figured out when I was doing it, but I wanted to know before hand. Thanks
This was what sofa posted
"Best way to deal with that then, is to follow the PROPER adjustment method. Which is, disconnect the Pitman arm from the center link; loosen the out-in-the-open screw everybody loves to dink with until the Pitman shaft is floppy loose; back off the big sheet-metal jam nut for the adjustment that REALLY makes a difference, which is, the worm shaft preload one; back off that adjustment as well. Make sure the steering wheel requires essentially ZERO torque to turn; back off the worm preload until it gets that way. Then, tighten the worm shaft preload with a spanner wrench SLOWLY until the effort required to turn the wheel JUST BEGINS to increase (it will increase ALOT and rather SUDDENLY when the proper preload is reached and the Belleville washer inside there gets flattened, you want to get it just on the edge of starting to do that); tighten the jam nut; then repeat with the easy-to-get-to adjuster. You can watch the Pitman shaft and tighten its adjuster until there is no side-to-side motion of that shaft.
Most likely, the worm shaft adjuster is too loose now, and the other is too tight. That seems to be the most common way they get mis-adjusted"
One Question though Sofa about your instructions. When you say do the second (easy to get to ) adjustment, do you just do the 1/4 turn method others have posted where you turn it until it gets tight and then back off 1/4 turn or are you doing exactly like with the worm shaft preload and having someone slowly turn the steering wheel and you adjust it until the steering wheel gets resistance?
Thats the only part that confused me, probably something I would have figured out when I was doing it, but I wanted to know before hand. Thanks
Last edited by 3rdgenmaro; 10-08-2013 at 07:06 AM.
10-08-2013, 07:11 AM
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
JY box would allow you to 'rebuild it' while the other one is on the car. In addition to replacing the seals, soft parts and a few bearings, rebuilding it will allow you to clean the parts of the inevitable varnish build up. This will result in a smoother functioning unit.
My limited experience with reman boxes is that they're just sent out too loose. I've pulled a few open and everything inside looked new and clean, just needed proper adjusting (except for one that was flat out assembled wrong).
There's some different tricks to re-installing the ball bearings, but the most important thing is to count them as they come out and ensure each and every one is re-installed.
My limited experience with reman boxes is that they're just sent out too loose. I've pulled a few open and everything inside looked new and clean, just needed proper adjusting (except for one that was flat out assembled wrong).
There's some different tricks to re-installing the ball bearings, but the most important thing is to count them as they come out and ensure each and every one is re-installed.
10-08-2013, 07:38 AM
#11
Re: Worn steering gearbox
I figured I would chime in on this one.
Inferno, I've rebuilt my own steering box and while it took me about 7+ hours, It was easy. You HAVE to take your time. That is all. If you have patience, you can do it. Rebuilding my steering box was the first and only time I've ever had to stop and get on the computer to make sure I was doing it right.
Almost all of my questions were answered via a 1989 GM service manual, and this thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...build-rag.html
Also, to the person who said our steering had a dead spot from the factory. I can tell you right now my car has absolutely no dead spot. I admit I have a fairly decent build, with Koni yellows and solid bearing strut mounts, along with a fully rebuilt steering set up (all moog). The steering is EXCELLENT and precise (and I have quite a few sport cars/sedans under my belt; so I can tell). The rebuild eliminated the drunk feeling when your constantly making steering corrections to stay straight. I rarely ever have to make a steering correction to stay straight now, even on slant roads (road crown).
Just figured I would give you some reassurance, I had some doubt and fears when I started, but that feeling lifted once I actually got into it. And let me tell you, the outcome has been awesome. I love driving this car now lol!
Inferno, I've rebuilt my own steering box and while it took me about 7+ hours, It was easy. You HAVE to take your time. That is all. If you have patience, you can do it. Rebuilding my steering box was the first and only time I've ever had to stop and get on the computer to make sure I was doing it right.
Almost all of my questions were answered via a 1989 GM service manual, and this thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...build-rag.html
Also, to the person who said our steering had a dead spot from the factory. I can tell you right now my car has absolutely no dead spot. I admit I have a fairly decent build, with Koni yellows and solid bearing strut mounts, along with a fully rebuilt steering set up (all moog). The steering is EXCELLENT and precise (and I have quite a few sport cars/sedans under my belt; so I can tell). The rebuild eliminated the drunk feeling when your constantly making steering corrections to stay straight. I rarely ever have to make a steering correction to stay straight now, even on slant roads (road crown).
Just figured I would give you some reassurance, I had some doubt and fears when I started, but that feeling lifted once I actually got into it. And let me tell you, the outcome has been awesome. I love driving this car now lol!
10-08-2013, 10:13 AM
#13
Re: Worn steering gearbox
So the box has to be out of the car to adjust the 'hard to get to' adjustment? And yes I'm the guy who bought a 600$ Lee box and it was messed up after 6 months. Now, a couple years later, it's still messed up and after adjusting the top 'easy to get to' adjustment as much as I could, it's still off center and now it's harder to return to center as well so the top screw is too tight. I'll probably rebuild it myself as sending it back to California from Canada and then back will cost me a ton of money. The box only has a couple thousand miles on it by now and I don't think I need new rubber seals or bearings or anything, unless ofcourse they need to be replaced once the box is open?
10-08-2013, 10:35 AM
#14
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
The box doesn't have to be out of the car to adjust, but it will make it much easier. The steering shaft will have to be removed and the pitman arm to centerlink disconnected.
Cranking on the adjuster plug at the input shaft can be tricky with the power steering pump and frame brace potentially in the way. You won't be able to get a spanner wrench to do a full turn on the plug but may be able to work it enough to adjust. I did recently replace an input shaft on one with it in the car though. Had to remove the triangular brace on the k member and then work the plug out.
Cranking on the adjuster plug at the input shaft can be tricky with the power steering pump and frame brace potentially in the way. You won't be able to get a spanner wrench to do a full turn on the plug but may be able to work it enough to adjust. I did recently replace an input shaft on one with it in the car though. Had to remove the triangular brace on the k member and then work the plug out.
10-08-2013, 03:23 PM
#16
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
So the box has to be out of the car to adjust the 'hard to get to' adjustment? And yes I'm the guy who bought a 600$ Lee box and it was messed up after 6 months. Now, a couple years later, it's still messed up and after adjusting the top 'easy to get to' adjustment as much as I could, it's still off center and now it's harder to return to center as well so the top screw is too tight. I'll probably rebuild it myself as sending it back to California from Canada and then back will cost me a ton of money. The box only has a couple thousand miles on it by now and I don't think I need new rubber seals or bearings or anything, unless ofcourse they need to be replaced once the box is open?
10-08-2013, 03:29 PM
#17
Re: Worn steering gearbox
Everything else is new, including a new GM bushing between the firewall, flaming river solid ujoints and steering shaft, all steering linkage, bump steer kit, ball joints, spindles, struts, etc. All but the pitman arm is new, but that is a non-wear piece.
10-08-2013, 06:42 PM
#18
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
Adjusted the allen fitting up top twice. First time was by Lee verbal instructions, second by 83 Shop Manual- same thing pretty much. When a hair of on center slop eventually came back I decided to live with it, rather than risk over adjusting it. It is so slight, I have to remind myself it is still there. Quite happy with my steering.
Drag your Lee box went South. They have done mine twice. First time was '87. Second time was because I was stupid taking the steering shaft off a few years ago, and popped a seal. Rather than just replace the seal, I decided it had been about 20 years so let's do the whole thing.
10-09-2013, 08:19 AM
#19
Re: Worn steering gearbox
The "dead" spot some are referring to is probably better called "over the center". Some cars get lighter at dead center, almost a neutral feel. But there should absolutely be NO play on center. I.E. being able to move the wheel back and forth without the car reacting.
That being said, rebuilding a box is pretty easy as others have stated. I did a few on my Jeeps, and if you dont know, Jeep steering boxes (as are many others) are very similar to our cars' steering boxes. They arent difficult to work with.
The reason reman units come back like crap is simply due to QC issues with cheaper parts. They arent taking their time when assembling, and thats one of the most important parts of the job.
I went through 4 steering gear exchanges at autozone before I got the one I wanted. I bought an 86 TA (non-WS6) and it had the regular ratio box. I wanted the quick ratio box that I had on my 87. I kept ordering that one, but kept getting normal ratio. #3 was quick ratio, but sloppy. #4 was the jackpot. Quick ratio and tight/perfect. Still running it. Its just something we deal with with reman parts sometimes. Sucks...but its reality.
If you're handy, and want to dive in, do it yourself. I like the idea of getting a junk yard box and working that into a rebuilt unit, then just swapping. Just make sure you get the ratio you want to start with.
Good luck!
J.
That being said, rebuilding a box is pretty easy as others have stated. I did a few on my Jeeps, and if you dont know, Jeep steering boxes (as are many others) are very similar to our cars' steering boxes. They arent difficult to work with.
The reason reman units come back like crap is simply due to QC issues with cheaper parts. They arent taking their time when assembling, and thats one of the most important parts of the job.
I went through 4 steering gear exchanges at autozone before I got the one I wanted. I bought an 86 TA (non-WS6) and it had the regular ratio box. I wanted the quick ratio box that I had on my 87. I kept ordering that one, but kept getting normal ratio. #3 was quick ratio, but sloppy. #4 was the jackpot. Quick ratio and tight/perfect. Still running it. Its just something we deal with with reman parts sometimes. Sucks...but its reality.
If you're handy, and want to dive in, do it yourself. I like the idea of getting a junk yard box and working that into a rebuilt unit, then just swapping. Just make sure you get the ratio you want to start with.
Good luck!
J.
10-09-2013, 09:40 AM
#20
Re: Worn steering gearbox
The Lee box is a more modern box that is 7lbs lighter and smaller in size than the boxes that came on our cars. It also has "better valving" and it was pretty amazing when I first got it to be honest. I'll likely remove it fix it over the winter.
11-06-2013, 05:00 AM
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
ghettocruiser, HELP! I had same thing, dead spot at top of wheel. No sounds or moaning or leaking, but it was sloppy at TDC. Well, i got the $400 AGR box, and its TOO TIGHT! Its impossible to steer that car when slow. I couldn't parallel park it right now if my life depended on it. HOW does one go about getting a 'quick' ratio box? I ordered mine from summit and EVERYTHING was 12:1. now, AGR does make a 13-17:1 ADJUSTABLE box, but i was told to stay away from that. Is that a 'quick ratio" box, or is there something else i need to look for? I need some help quick, right now I cannot drive the car!
11-06-2013, 07:12 AM
#23
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Re: Worn steering gearbox
12:1 IS the "quick" ratio.
The # is how many degrees you'd have to turn the steering wheel, to make the tires turn one degree.
1:1 would be like bicycle handlebars.
Low #s are sporty; high #s are for grandma sedans or school buses.
"Variable ratio" boxes have a high ratio at the center so that the steering doesn't feel "twitchy", but then a lower ratio as it gets turned more, so you don't have to crank the wheel so many times in a parking lot. You don't want those, they are for minivans and luxo barges and dump trucks.
Sounds like you already have the box you need, you just need to follow the adjustment instructions I gave, that 3rdgenmaro quoted up above there.
The # is how many degrees you'd have to turn the steering wheel, to make the tires turn one degree.
1:1 would be like bicycle handlebars.
Low #s are sporty; high #s are for grandma sedans or school buses.
"Variable ratio" boxes have a high ratio at the center so that the steering doesn't feel "twitchy", but then a lower ratio as it gets turned more, so you don't have to crank the wheel so many times in a parking lot. You don't want those, they are for minivans and luxo barges and dump trucks.
Sounds like you already have the box you need, you just need to follow the adjustment instructions I gave, that 3rdgenmaro quoted up above there.
11-06-2013, 05:36 PM
#24
Re: Worn steering gearbox
I got a quick ratio box from a wrecked TA with around 80k miles on it if I recall. I also decided to replace the centerlink and tie rod ends and even got some of those fancy hex tie rod sleeves... if it's still sloppy after this I will rebuild the box like you guys say, now I have a quick ratio box that I dont mind investing the time/money into rebuilding/adjusting. If it's still sloppy after THAT, I'm burning the car to the ground. Or getting new strut mounts. I think that's the last stock suspension bushing/bearing/whatever in the car.
11-10-2013, 09:42 PM
#26
Re: Worn steering gearbox
Well. for the record, I got my toe set using some tape and string across the rear tires... worked better than I thought. It's a LITTLE off center but it's good enough to drive around until I can get a proper alignment done. The car drives MUCH better now especially at speed. Got MOOG tie rod ends and a MOOG centerlink, I already replaced the Idler arm less than a year ago with an AC Delco unit, so every thing from the steering box down has been replaced at this point and it really does feel a whole lot better. I took it to the autocross today and was super glad to have the quick ratio box. I also really like these hex tie rod sleeves I got. I wanted to be able to set toe myself in a pinch and I was tired of trying to work with my old sleeves. They're not THAT expensive.
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