I'm looking to get some work done to my steering to tighten it back up since it's gotten a little lose. Besides just the slosh I have due to my suspension and bushings being worn out, when driving I can move the steering back and forth probably in about a 3" arc without getting any response at the tires.

I was told that I need to have my "steering box" rebuilt or look for a refurbished one. However I can't figure out what this thing actually is and how to look for or check the prices on a refurbished one.

I know I can replace the front end stuff like tie rods, center link, idler arm, etc. But I don't think those are really what is giving me a lot of play in the steering right now.

Oh and I have an almost brand new power steering pump on there already so I don't think anything is wrong with it.

Thanks for any help!

 

With that much slack, you should probably check all steering components. Check the Steering 101 sticky.

For rebuild check the following:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...build-rag.html
Here's some general info (I'd like to give credit, but I don't recall where I found the info):

• “WS” – 1982-1992 Camaro – 12.7:1 ratio (just like your Z/28, this may be the box that you Z originally had.

• “XH” – 1985-1992 Camaro – 12.7:1 ratio (this box was also installed on Z/28’s and other high performance Camaros; it has slightly more steering effort required than the WS box.) NOTE – I believe this box was used on cars originally equipped with 16” wheels

• “WN” – 1982-1985 Camaro – 14.1 ratio

• “WP” – 1982-1985 Camaro – 13:1-15:1 variable ratio (used in Berlinettas, least steering effort required of all third gen. Camaro steering boxes)

• “JL” – 1986-1992 Camaro – 14.1 ratio (base Camaro steering box)
Check for prices at any auto parts stores.

JamesC

 

Thanks JamesC, sorry not really sure how I missed that sticky. I even looked at the stickies cause I looked at the Front end rebuild one lol...

However I did find this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AAZ-27-6550/

Any opinions on it? For 112 dollars it seems much simpler than rebuilding my box. I'm just questioning how good it is. They have a "performance" steering box on there that is a lot more expensive:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AGR-225153/

Dunno if the performance version is really worth the extra cost?

EDIT:
Oh and I've checked the front end stuff and they all seem to be in fairly good condition. I've yanked back and forth on them and they don't have any play anywhere that I can tell.

 

Hmm, one other thing to note.

That cardone reman steering gear box, O'reilly has it locally for 116. I figure since I have to pay to ship the core back to summit I may as well pay the extra 4 dollars for it at O'reilly. But they have two of them (summit does as well). One says it's for w/sport suspension, and one says w/o sport suspension.

No idea if the suspension on my car was the sport suspension or not lol. Any ideas here?

I think I may just go ahead and pick up the front end rebuild kit from Spohn as well. But a question about that, it doesn't have the pitman arm in that rebuild kit. Should I replace it as well?

 

You missed the sticky because I've just added the link.

If you have RPO FE2, you have the sport suspension.

The pitman arm is a non-wear item.

JamesC

 

The sport box should be around 2.5 turns lock to lock (the stops for 16" wheels reduced this somewhat). The regular box is around 4 turns lock to lock (and lower effort).

I've had no good experience with a purchased reman box, but if the box is not leaking, it probably doesn't need to be rebuilt. There are bench adjustments that can be done to tighten it up, though. Fix everything else before tackling the box.

Check Advance for the Moog chassis parts. You can probably get all the parts cheaper if not purchased as part of a 'kit'. Include wheel bearings and seals if you haven't swapped them out recently.

 

After replacing the front end components, I used to following to good effect:

Removing slop in the GM steering box
Part One
contributed by J. Matthew Daugherty


Does your car wander across truck grooves in the road, but didn't used to? Does the steering wheel have a lot of travel before your car begins turning? Generally feel numb on center?

Having a car with over 100K on it assures you that you'll have some chassis parts to replace and some steering "slop" to take care of. Idler arm, drag link, tie rods, ball joints, steering box, shocks, springs, bushings all could use replacing when they're high mileage.

The stock steering box on your g-body has an adjustment that is free, takes very little time to do and requires minimal tools. This adjustment removes slop in the preload of the gears in the steering box.


Tools

3/16" allen wrench
5/8" box end wrench
lubricating oil

Procedure

use oil to lubricate threads of locknut and adjustment plug (right on top, can't miss it)
raise the front end of the car so both front wheels are off the ground
put the box end wrench on the locknut
use allen wrench to hold the adjustment plug at the top of the box
holding the allen wrench stationary, loosen the locknut with the box end wrench several turns
turn the adjustment plug clockwise until snug to remove slack, then back it out 90 degrees.
holding the allen wrench stationary, tighten the locknut, remove wrenches
start car, run steering wheel through full rotation, checking for binding
if binding, repeat steps 3-8, backing out adjustment plug slightly more
lower car from jack (stands) drive car, note improvement!
I was AMAZED at how much slop this took out of the front end of my 131K '86 Monte Carlo SS (factory quick ratio box). I seriously doubt it had ever been done by prior owners.

JamesC

 

Hrm, when you say 2.5 turns lock to lock, does that mean 2.5 full turns of the steering wheel to go from turned all the way one way to turned all the way the other way? =/

And when you say the regular box is lower effort, is this something noticeable with power steering? I mean I want the steering wheel to fill tight and responsive, but I don't want to be working up a sweat when turning a lot like I would with something without power steering lol

EDIT:

Oh yeah, I just checked advance's website. Getting all the moog parts there to match what is in Spohns front end rebuild kit comes out to be 50 dollars more expensive than Spohns =/ (that's getting the ball joints with Spohn's kit).

Also, what kind of bad experiences have you had with reman units? Just leaking units or something like that?

 

Yes.

If you enjoy the feel/responsiveness of a sports car, I doubt you'd be content with the standard box (unless you have tiny little grandma arms ).

JamesC

 

Ouch. Last stuff I bought from them was through one of their '15% off, spend $100, get $50 off next order' deals, and I piece-mealed my order.

First box I bought was supposed to be a 2.5, turned out to be a 4. Next one was severely mal-adjusted, the next would only turn one way. A rebuild kit costs around $35 and it takes a few hours.

 

They have a similar special right now, it's 30 dollars off orders over 150 and a $50 dollar coupon toward next order. I just don't know when I'm going to be ordering more than 50 dollars in stuff again to be worth the extra $20 right now =/ I guess I could order 150 dollars of stuff and get the coupon and order the rest of it with the coupon, that would make it a bit cheaper than spohns kit hehe.

EDIT: nvm just read the details, coupons wont be emailed out until March 28th, and I wanted to try and have this stuff finished up before the 24th =/

One other thing, the moog tie rod sleeves look like they are clamp on instead of thread on:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/web...RPCHASAMS_____

Seems like that would be a lot less durable? =/

Is the stock replacement Drive Works stuff not any good? I can rebuild the front end using those parts really cheap lol. 181 dollars for all driveworks stuff (pre-discount) with a trw center link since they don't have a driveworks center link.

 

Here's a detailed gearbox rebuild:

http://www.powerblocktv.com/player/s...-01&ep_show=MC

 

The no-name brand stuff is perfectly fine for tie rod ends and the like. I do, however, stick with Moog for the ball joints.

The clamp-style adjusters are ok, just not as cool as the one-piece stuff. Stock style clamp on adjusters are often thrown out at alignment time if they've been on a good while. Lot's of cavities to hide water and corrosion. Strength-wise, they're really only serving as a two force member and in that regard, perfectly adequate for most applications.

 

Well let me ask this, since the driveworks stuff comes with the ball joints already on it as far as I can tell, would the driveworks stuff be an improvement over what I have now and sufficient for a little while until I can afford a higher end set? I'm just a little strapped for cash atm putting so much into the car recently and the steering and rear end gears are the only things I have left tow ork out atm, 400 vs 180 is a pretty big difference when you are cutting it tight lol I don't mind spending the money over on the same parts later on if the cheaper parts will get me by sufficiently and better than what I have for now. The rear end gears are definitely something getting put off, going to run me close to 900 for a new auburn posi locker, new gears, and 28 spline axles.

 

Just an update to my last question, I'm a little confused. Are those ball joints on the tie rod ends? Or are the ball joints being referred to the A-Arm ball joints? Trying to figure out why Spohn would have the ball joints optional in their kit, but it seems all pictures of tie rod ends show what looks to me like a ball joint, in it already.

 

Pics in the following sticky will provide answers:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...nsion-how.html

JamesC

 

Before you run out and buy a box or rebuild it, I strongly suggest pulling it out and doing the bench adjustments.

http://www.monte-list.com/tech/boxmesh.shtml
Read part 2

The other thing you want to ensure is that the box is on center when it's in the car and the wheels are aligned. The pitman arm and idler arm should have equal measurements from the front pivot of one, to the back pivot of the other.

You can isolate which parts have slop by just putting the key in the ignition and turning it far enough to where the steering wheel unlocks. With the car off, have a helper just wiggle the wheel slowly in the range where there is slop. While they do that you look down the steering shaft, to the box and all the way down to your steering knuckles and you will see what is not transferring movement to the next item in line. That's where your slop is.
I can almost guarantee that the box has substantial slop. Don't forget to check the rag joint.

I did the bench adjustments on mine, and re-aligned the pitman to idler arm (had to reclock the steering wheel) and my steering is unbelievably good on my car with 140k of hard miles on it. Very tight for a thirdgen.

 

What is a rag joint? Lol really wish i had a mechanic buddy that i could just offer beer or something to, to help me out with all of this. Way to much stuff for someone as ignorant as me that is on a schedule That is why I generally just replace stuff rather than trying to monkey with adjusting or rebuilding it. I can generally figure out how to undo a few bolts and swap a component, but I don't have time to sit there and figure out how to rebuild an old component to make it good again. I read the part 2 of that guide and even that has me questioning if I can do it right. There are quite a few things in it that I'm not sure I understand what piece it's talking about. And then the torque specifications it gives, I have no idea how to judge the amount of torque. Meaning most likely, if I were to try and do that it'll be a lot of trial and error with me having to remove and install the box multiple times.

I would pay a mechanic to do it if I knew of any good ones in my area that I could afford. I can't afford these 90 and 100+ dollar an hour mechanics right now. For example, I did check with one mechanic about rebuilding my steering box. He said they would send it off to some company in charlotte to rebuild for 250 dollars and then also had to pay him for an hour of labor for removal and installation of it. And y'all say a rebuild kit is only 35 dollars... lol.

I already picked up the steering box. I can return it if need be, no big deal. But I was just intending to swap out the gear box once and be done with it for now. No idea what the rag joints are and if they are something I need to replace as well. I also went ahead and ordered new front end stuff (center link, tie rod ends + sleeves, and idler arm).

EDIT: Just searched Advance and O'reilly and didn't see anything called a rag joint, or anything listed as some type of joint under their steering components =/

 

Take a look at post #2 for pics and a discussion of elimination. Many members are going to a Jeep or Astro van shaft:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ing-shaft.html

Good luck with your project.

JamesC

 

Rag joint connects the steering shaft to the input shaft on the box. It's a rubber-composite disk that allows some flex between the shaft and the box. Kinda a cheap u-joint. If yours is oil free and doesn't exhibit any play or deterioration, it's probably fine.

You'll be fine for years with the less expensive steering pieces. When you swap stuff out, take out the center link and tie rod ends as a unit. Then assemble your new stuff to the same length. This will get you close enough to make it to the alignment shop.

Ball joints go in the A-Arms. You can get the ball joint installer/remover from AZ. Support your a-arm fairly high off the ground so you'll be able to get the tool, with it's threaded rod, underneath. You'll have to remove the strut from the spindle to get to the ball joint castle nut. Once that's done you can loosen the strut rod bolt and move all of that out of your way. You'll have to torque the strut bolts back down to 150 ft-lbs when all done.

Store the ball joints in the freezer overnight. May help getting them in. Use a little oil to help them press fit in.

Install your idler arm so that it is at the same height relative to the chassis as the pitman arm. If you swap boxes this pitman arm height may change. Just measure from a common point on the chassis. Within 1/4" is fine.

 

I read another place about the elimination of rag joints causing binding in the steering? Is rag joint this parts official name? If it is, is it just not something advance or O'reilly carries? I'm not really looking to get into something as complex as a shaft swap and having to tweak it to make it work right right now. So if I can just replace this joint and be good with my current shaft, I'd rather do that.

So I'm guessing I can't see it right now due to the plastic sleeve over the steering shaft?

I ended up going with the Spohn front end rebuild kit. Seemed like it was a safe bet on quality and cheaper than a full set of moog stuff.

I'm taking the A-Arm all the way off hehe. I've got new bushings for it too.

Thanks for the tips!

 

Hmm I've been searching online for like the last hour and I cannot find any info on this rag joint for 3rd gen camaros. Summit and other auto part places have a rag joint for second gen camaros, but none for 3rd gens.

If anyone can tell me where I can find this thing that would be great.

 

And you aren't searching TGO, why?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ment-gory.html

BTW, there is no binding with a Jeep (or Astro Van) shaft. These shafts simply don't have the rag joint. Actually, the install may be easier than replacing the rag joint on your OE shaft. To each his own.

JamesC

 

The thing about the shaft swap is in that thread you linked I did not see anything with a definitive direct bolt in swap. Lots of stuff about some shafts being to short, or at the wrong angle, and having to use a dremel to tweak stuff to make it fit. I don't have time for all that right now. I just need something that I know is going to work in my car without any modifications.

I don't even know if I need to replace this rag joint after reading that thread you just linked me. The guy said on his that it didn't really make much of a difference. And looking at what the part actually is, I can see why it wouldn't. Unless the holes on the disc are worn out and oblong, I don't see where this part could create a lot of play in steering?

I mean for only 11 dollars for a new one I'm gonna go pick it up in case I need it while working on my steering this weekend, but if it doesn't look like it's needed, I'm probably not going to bother installing it.

 

As for rebuilding the box, I just did mine and I can say you probably don't need to do it.... Re-adjusting it, both the over-the-center drag, and the worm bearing preload should do it. I spent almost $100 in tools and supplies to rebuild my box (plus 8 hours) and I don't feel any difference..... ($35 for the kit, $30 for the 1 5/16" socket and breaker, $35 for the heli-coil kit when I stripped the cover taking it off......its aluminum!) add paint, steering fluid, and a huge amount of paper towels.....what a PITA!

Plus i had to replace the supply and return hoses since the old ones were rusted into the box.....

If you have input shaft slop, start with the over-the-center drag adjustment. Thats the hex drive on top with the lock nut...... read up on it.

 

You can swap the Jeep shaft without modification. Instead of using the dremel to put the slight notch on the shaft, you could probably use a long 1/4" bolt with a lock nut to just pinch the shaft together.

The swap will take a lot less time then replacing the rag joint. Found mine for $15 from junkyard. Will be doing the swap on my S10 soon.

 

The rag joints I've replaced were never a direct fit and all had to be modified in some way, or other bolts purchased, PITA.