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WS6 OEM front sway bar is 36mm. DSE is 34mm. What am I missing here? Why is the DSE front sway bar smaller? Is there something else to the performance of their swaybar that would justify the smaller diameter?
I was looking to upgrade my front and rear swaybars. My rears are 23mm/24mm. Is there an upgrade to the ws6 package?
I dont know specifics but most people cant find the WS6 bars. The DSE unit is really nice and I assume performs as good if not better than the WS6 bar.
I dont know specifics but most people cant find the WS6 bars. The DSE unit is really nice and I assume performs as good if not better than the WS6 bar.
Thats what I would like to find out, if its worth the swap.
More important than the size is the composition of the metal. Bigger may not mean better depending on the other suspension components you have up front not to mention the weight you have in the front of the car. Lotsa variables. Lots of talk on swaybars here if you haven't seen. Aftermarket stuff provides more stiffness but unless you are a track guy, it might be overkill and overpay.
Not sure you can compare diameters straight up. I don't think the DSE mounts in the OE location and has a shorter arm. It is made for use with very stiff springs, not really meant for a stock vehicle.
One of these days I should install mine. Been sitting in the house or a couple years now.
For the very vast majority, spending $$ on aftermarket swaybars is just shiny powdercoat. The hollow 36mm ws6 is as good as it gets - minus custom.
You will do better trying the new attachment points which transfer the load/leverage much better (might need aftermarket a-arms). Better bang for buck, here. There are just so many other areas to spend money on for total improvement than on SB's.
Plus, you should have several to swap around and learn how your car handles - not a one and done part.
Not sure you can compare diameters straight up. I don't think the DSE mounts in the OE location and has a shorter arm. It is made for use with very stiff springs, not really meant for a stock vehicle.
One of these days I should install mine. Been sitting in the house or a couple years now.
Not sure on the shorter arm but it does install in the stock location. Although, it becomes dangerously close to the pitman arm. I was looking at possibly going with the sway bar mount relocation brackets. Would give me a bit more clearance.
For the very vast majority, spending $$ on aftermarket swaybars is just shiny powdercoat. The hollow 36mm ws6 is as good as it gets - minus custom.
You will do better trying the new attachment points which transfer the load/leverage much better (might need aftermarket a-arms). Better bang for buck, here. There are just so many other areas to spend money on for total improvement than on SB's.
Plus, you should have several to swap around and learn how your car handles - not a one and done part.
For the very vast majority, spending $$ on aftermarket swaybars is just shiny powdercoat. The hollow 36mm ws6 is as good as it gets - minus custom.
You will do better trying the new attachment points which transfer the load/leverage much better (might need aftermarket a-arms). Better bang for buck, here. There are just so many other areas to spend money on for total improvement than on SB's.
Plus, you should have several to swap around and learn how your car handles - not a one and done part.
No, the bar is what it is.
Suspension technology is all about weight transfer - and the control of it.
In autoX, tire management is not a consideration (burn 'em up). In road racing, tire management is crucial. Context and application is everything.
A custom and well thought out SB is a good idea - pricey. For most, more $$ spent at the track in the seat will provide more benefit. The stock SB link - a basic pin, can be improved and provide better bang for the buck as stated. The smoother and more precise transfer of weight will help most intermediate to advanced drivers. That is my point. Even if one decides to purchase a well thought out new SB, the new links should still be considered as part of the overall package.
Start with the things that transfer weight and energy (and lightweight components - not cheap) - your going to need them anyway! Then still see if you need more bar.
The DSE front bar is 35mm (1 3/8in) and has a 944Lb rate.
The rear DSE bar is 1in (25.5mm) and has a 620lb or 784lb rate depending on what hole you choose.
The DSE 35mm bar is the same weight as my old RS 34mm bar
The DSE bar can only be purchased with their Wonder bar.
In my opinion, the DSE wonder bar is the #1 best version. It ties in the subframe and steering box laterally. A stock style wonder bar relies on bolt tension and can move around, while the DSE bar isn't going to move 0.001in
As far as stiffness, the 35mm bar is WAYYYY stiffer than my 34mm bar.
I assume for a few reasons:
1. Better geometry than the stock bar
2. New spring steel vs 25yr old steel
I was getting some tire roll over at the Autocross with the 34m bar even with my 1,200lb front Springs, -2.0 Deg camber ,and Fairly high pressure (43psi)
The DSE bar fixed this.
tire wear and temps are now within 5F across the tread
I have a video installing the front and rear DSE bars
Thanks for those numbers, McLovin. Off the top of my head they seem close to what I remember from my conversations with them.
Their 35mm SB is not substantially stronger over the 36mm, though it does have slightly improved ends for better attachment points. It will take custom and $$ to really improve the stock 36mm bar. It is a good idea, just that there are many other areas to spend money on.
Phil Smith had great success: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...ther-scca.html https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/brak...-race-car.html
His pic in the first post shows the custom bar.
SB's are thought of as a tuning tool. Like you mentioned, it cured a problem you were having. Most of us cannot afford to purchase several new SB's to tune with, but the JY is a great resource in this regard. I don't buy your rhetoric about 'old'/ 'new' steel relating to a bar (springs, sure), though - minor point. That's why the xfer points can be addressed for improvement without great cost (DSE even did that with the shape of their bar).
The main argument here is bang for buck, and then why not go custom if you've decided to buy new. I'm considering it and watching and waiting.
Yes, sway bar spring steel gets old as it goes over it's max stress cycles.
same as old springs,
Go past 15,000,000 cycles over 30 years and the steel deforms.
Rates decrease stiffness decrease
the DSE wall thickness is thicker than the stock bar
So the DSE 35mm bar is probably 15-20% stiffer than a old 36mm bar.
Although I have found NO one who's tested the stock 36mm bar rate. The DSE unit is 944lbs, that's a LOT especially when most most of us serious Road Race/AutoX guys use More than 1,000lb front springs.
As far as going full custom,that's another thing all together. A custom bar is gonna cost you WAY more time and effort than just buying say the $300 DSE wonder and sway bar.
I'd like to go custom, but that's beyond what my current build calls for.
If you have the tools and time/money, go custom.
that link you posted, is a serious build.
Dude has $1,500 JRI struts and circle track brakes
In the GM world, the 36mm bar is hollow, while the 34mm bar is solid. IIRC, they both have the same rate, but the hollow bar is a lot lighter.
RBob.
The factory 36 and 34mm bars are hollow, the 34 is supposed to be more common but I've had problems finding them (I'm looking for a decent one), I suspect that most people that think they have a 36mm actually have 34's. The 32mm used on the earlier cars is solid and has about the same rate as the 34 but weighs more. The 34 was also used on the TTA with special brackets to get it around the intercooler. For most suspension/spring combinations I feel that the hollow 34 or the solid 32mmis a better match than the 36, but that's just me (I haven't tried a 36 with the mythical 25mm rear bar which I've never seen, most cars had a much smaller rear bar)
Originally Posted by Dmans85
More important than the size is the composition of the metal. Bigger may not mean better depending on the other suspension components you have up front not to mention the weight you have in the front of the car. Lotsa variables. Lots of talk on swaybars here if you haven't seen. Aftermarket stuff provides more stiffness but unless you are a track guy, it might be overkill and overpay.
WRT to this steel is steel, the particular alloy will make a difference in durability at it's limits, but not the spring rate.
If it has the same mounting points and is the same length between them, the same cross-section will be the same stiffness.
I was under the impression that the DSE bar was solid and a higher spring rate, but I haven't had one in my hands to confirm. Again, I feel that without a heavier bar on the back (especially since a lot of us are running bigger back tires) this is an imbalanced combination, but there are reasons to run that.
All DSE sway bars are hollow.
Their 35mm third gen bar was the same weight as my stock 34mm bar.
The DSE bar has shorter arms and center lenght.
Less of the stock bar's "Spaghetti bends" as well.
and a slightly thicker wall thickness vs the stock bar.
although I haven't cut apart any bars to 100% confirm the wall thickness
If I liked posts then I would like that one. But I'm old and grumpy and don't do that. But darn good info, McLovin. This is turning into a good thread.
It's not just bar, it's also in relation to spring rate and roll centers, too. McLovin has #1200 spring rate, unknown RC, stiffer one piece bar, and high tire pressure. You can get away with this on smooth Xcross, but that's harsh in other environments, IMO.
Phil Smith had Ron Sutton help design his suspension. Ron is excellent at that, but proved to not be good at his business/financial acumen. Phil's pic shows similar design with the RideTech MuscleBar (Ron worked with RideTech). His spring rates were not harsh, but the bar was strong (unknown rate, I think he told me, but don't recall).
RideTech doesn't list a 3rd Gen bar, but I'm sure they can make one:A New Way Of Looking At Sway Bars!
Precision CNC-Bent Tubing For accurate and repeatable fitment
Exact Bar Rates Included with each bar no guesses as to bar rate
Large Inventory and Short Lead Times no waiting for weeks or months for product
Delrin-Lined Frame Mount Bushings allow easy and predictable rotation over the stiction of polyurethane rubber
Investment Cast Steel Bar Ends offer performance and appearance improvements over the traditional beat it flat and punch a hole in it manufacturing
Easy-To-Install Spherical End Links With Barrel Lock Nuts
Pics of 2nd Gen bar which shows similar design to Phil's (list price $575-600):
Those bars look interesting, but I don't see any rates for them.
or if they will clear 315/30R18s like the DSE bar.
Regardless, with my roll centers 1/2 in higher in the front and 3 3/8in lower in the rear, I have basically very little body roll.
about 1in of suspension travel worth at 1.10Gs
I feel like this thread has gotten side tracked lol
Anyways, the DSE 35mm bar has good fitment, stiffness, and price. Well worth considering
As far as track smoothness
My local AutoX events are held at old run ways
They are VERY rough with tons of imperfections!
I run 1200/400 to get my design frequency (1.85/1.95Hz)s high as I can to cope with the rough track. My suspension has to be able to react fast enough.
Ride quality for me is actually not bad at all.
Koni RACE double Adj struts keep things fairly smooth. My car rides about the same as a C6 z06 harshness wise.
there's a lot of guys with similar spring rates and it isn't really harsh at all.
Last edited by McLovin1181; 07-21-2020 at 08:18 PM.
07-01-2020, 06:18 PM
