I put my engine/cam combo through desktop dyno and it came out at 354hp at 6000rpm and 339ft/lbs at 5000rpm. do you think this is acurate for my combo? i was guessing around 300hp and would be very happy w/ this reading.
Thanks

 

that seems a bit too high, i would say around 260 tops

 

Now how can you say that when you don't even know the specs of the cam he's using?

AJ

 

Yeah, we need to see the cam specs. But if desktop dyno is predicting 354hp at 6000rpm and 339ft/lbs at 5000rpm I would say you have a pretty big cam in there. Also do you have any custom tuning? We had a post a few days ago on the accuracy of desktop dyno and the general consensus was that it is pretty optimistic.

 

its a crane cam powermax 2030 cam 260 270 advertised duration and a .452/.429 lift. what do you mean by custom tuning. My chip was custom made to the specs of everything on the engine. everything else is in the sig i think. I was thinking that heads, cam, intake and a 650 cfm tbi would add 80-100 hp.

 

also what kinda new injectors are in there , stock ones?
stock tbi or 670cfm tbi, 454 tbi

i doubt the stock tbi ported or not wont support 345 hp

Yea u guys are right on not knowing cam specs, 300 hp is a possiblity

 

ohhh aight u do got the 670 tbi u posted faster than i asked haha

 

yeah i figured w/ proper tuning i should have about 300hp, 354 does seem a little to optomistic to me

 

I just ran your combo thru my desktop dyno. You're staying with the 305? It came out to 305 HP at 5500 RPMs. Your biggest problem will be fuel delivery. You'll need some bigger injectors, like 70 lbs, and a custom chip to go with the new combo. Good luck.

The problem with Desktop Dyno is it works great for carb cars, but its not smart enough to figure out EFI cars, as accurately. And even tho it says 2bbl Carb Only, you need to use that one for TBI, since its a 2bbl.

 

I should get some true dyno numbers when I can afford to have it done....
Also remember I have a 350....

 

Here. We'll see if this works.

AJ

 

Nope... how about this.

AJ

 

yeah i adjusted a couple things and got almost the same graph. im hoping to get 300hp, but i wont know for sure untill i get it on the dyno

 

That's Snowdog's engine.

AJ

 

WHEN I RAN HIS IT WAS 340 HP AND 391 FT/LBS

 

I have the feeling AJ is more correct. We will find out when I actually have it done. I believe I will be around 280 RWHP or so on the dyno. If I get any higher than that I will be really happy!

 

What kind of heads did you use? I used Stock Pocket Ported with larger valves.

Plus I used HP Exhaust Manifolds w/mufflers. That's what the headers that we use in our cars fall under. Any shortie header is not considered a "true" header. It a sad attempt to make a header that easily fits into our cars.

The last thing, which may not seam obvious, is the cam selection. The roller cam option should not be used unless it's a race profile or unless it's a solid (mechanical) roller cam. The benefits seen from a stock/stightly modified cam grind that's made for roller lifters is only going to gain HP from the reduced friction. The angle of the profile is not a whole lot more aggressive than a flat lifter hyd. cam. It's just stays at peak lift a little longer.

AJ

 

What would a ZZ4 cam be considered? Specs 208/221 .474"/.510" 112 LSA @ .05 duration

 

The most important spec to use as a guide line is the duration at .050".

I wouldn't click on the "Roller Lifter" option unless the duration is over 240* @ .050" That's a pretty healthy cam.

If you read the instructions (I know it's against the "guy rules") it'll tell you a lot about the stuff I mentioned earlier.

AJ

 

AJ, A roller cam be it mild or wild will (all that I've seen) have more area under the profile which will ALWAYS make more power than the same spec flat tap. The ramp speed is enough to make a significant differance, I wouldn't input the roller cam specs and tell desktop dyno that's it's a standard cam! Besides, even a hyd. roller cam will produce very similar results to a solid lifter until you get up to like 235+ duration at .050 and .550 lift.

 

I'm not talking about real life scenerios here. I'm talking about a $35 computer program.

Do you own DD2000? If so you'd know what I'm talking about. But since it's pretty obvious you don't own it, you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Here are the instructions if you'd like to read them, then you can make your own conclusion.

BTW, I have done the above mentioned and gotten to within 2HP and 6 ft.lbs of the stock LO3.

AJ

 

I guess this program is pretty crappy. Good thing I haven't wasted my time or money into bench racing .

 

No. It's not crappy at all. It's a very good program for the money. It works very well IF you know how to read instructions.

You are being a hypocrite. You bash everyone for talking bad about TBI because they don't understand how it works. Well guess what you're doing? Your bashing this program because YOU don't understand how it works.

If you want proof that it works, give me any engine combo that has been proven by a real dyno, and I'm sure I can get to within 5% of the actual HP/TQ numbers.

I'll only do it on one condition. That you can prove to me that the Holley TB that you use (and seem to love SO MUCH) can support more than 400HP, still be "streetable", and get great gas milage as you so often preach on this board. OK?

I'm not bashing TBI (like you are this program) but each has its limits. It just seems to me that you haven't realized that TBI has serious limits. Yea, there may be one way to fix one problem, but that usually causes another problem to appear. Kinda like DD2000.

AJ

 

The holley 670 TBI can support 400hp, just like how a 2 barrel 500cfm carb can ALSO support 400+hp. Yes it's a bottle neck but it can be done and it has been done, just nobody seems to bother with TBI because it's the "low output" EFI from GM.
I'm in school still and frankly I don't have to prove anything to somebody that thinks bench racing with a $30 program is where it's at. The latest MPFI vs TBI article had TBI making 395hp peak but that was with a 700cfm TB!!! What part of this doesn't make sence to you? I never said a 670cfm was more than enough for 400hp, I just made it clear that it could definatly support the 400hp. The problem was never the air but instead the fuel delivery which my solution (if you're having problems reading directions smart ***) was to use a vac.AFPR with GM BBC 80 or 90# injectors and some fancy/creative eprom tuning.
As far as gas milage is concerned again, you must have missed another one of my informative posts when I was reported 22mpg with the 3.73 gears, stock eprom timing, unknown fuel pressure and base timing, AND only running on 7 cylinders (ran like crap cause of a bent #1 spark plug). Ah, and of course would you guess that the o2 sensor is tapped into only my number 1 and 5 cylinders thanks to SLP tri-y headers. Ah, now for the kicker. Hes MPFI will make slightly more HP as it should by design BUT it is over-rated 99% of the time. If tuners started saying that TBI is EFI and that it works great then they wouldn't sell the expensive parts! This is another reason why I'm not suprised Car Craft was the magazine to come out with a heads up TBI vs MPFI, just a shame they didn't stick the 900cfm version, again, no suprise since it's Car Craft.
I don't have a problem with DD2000 except that so many people spend time on it wow'ing over a hp increase when they added better heads, or a different cam, etc.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, I do understand how the program works, I just choose not to use it for reasons explained earlier in this post. I'd rather read about and listen to the guys that make engines and race cars or operate dyno's than to trust a $30 program. I WOULD however invest in the program if it had more indepth alogorithms for stuff like actual cam profiles and valve train weight, friction, special pieces like the rev-springs etc. I don't doubt you can get to within 5% but if a motor made 400hp you're room for error is a 20hp swing either way. I could tell you if the motor was making betwen 380 and 420 so 5% is not anything special.

 

I don't think that "bench racing with a $30 program is where it's at." I've had numerous cars that have made much quicker runs than 13.8 ET. And I mean REAL LIFE 1/4 mile runs, not "bench racing" as you put it.

As a matter of fact, I had a '72 Nova that ran 13.5 ET @ 114 MPH simply because I hadn't yet installed a posi, and it had 14" street tires with 3.36:1, 8.5" rear gear. Plus I still knocked down 18 MPG. And guess what... I built the car/engine that way with an Edelbrock 750cfm, mechanical secondary carb!!!!!!

There's one thing that you so conveniently forget to add about the Car Craft article. They used a 4 bbl. TBI unit!! Not the sorry *** 670 cfm (which BTW only flows ~485 cfm @ 1.5"Hg). And sorry, by the time you add up all the extras you have to buy to make that TBI unit run (the MPI Pro-Jection) you're just about at the same cost as a SuperRam. I guess there goes your $$/HP thinking.

Again, I'm sorry you think that this is a waste of your time, but if you really feel that way, why are you getting so offended? Did you invent TBI? Or are you just sore because you've wasted all your time and effort trying to get a TRUCK TBI to work for you and you're finally starting to realize that going carb or MPFI would have gotten you the ET you wanted by now?

If you wanna talk $$/HP, then you shouldn't overlook carbs. They're really easy to tune and get great performance out of, along with drivability, descent MPG, and good idle quality. Doing that is what requires you to get off your butt from behind a computer and put some actual brains into your work. Not punching in some #s on a computer, burning ump-teen million chips trying to get it to make good HP, 'great MPG', and not throw codes every 2 minutes. If you want great MPG, buy a frickin' Hyundai Accent. :sillylol: HP and MPG don't go great together. You have to sacrifice one to get the other.

And don't give me this "well all I have to do is swap chips and I can get either one". Or that "highway mode" crap. That's what spread bore carbs can also achieve. That's why the front primaries are smaller. And instead of swapping chips, all you have to do on a carb is swap a few jets. And can you guess which costs less?

Hell, I may stick with TBI just because the goverment says I have to. But that depends on the $$/HP factor. If I can't get into the 12's without spending $2000 on an EFI kit, then **** on it. I can spend $600 for a carb/intake/three port regulator and do it EASILY!!! And until someone proves that a factory TBI setup can do it, and cost less, then guess what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do what I KNOW works. Not what you HOPE works.

AJ

 

Hummm, looks like you're the guy that's getting offended when I cracked on your little program there.
You've managed to change the subject with every post you've made, it looks like you're now focusing all efforts on proving TBI is junk.
You are an idiot, ignoramous, nit whit, and all of the above for calling the 670cfm unit a "TRUCK TBI". That's about as bright as calling vortec heads "truck only parts." You've now dug yourself a huge hole so keep digging, it's making me tear up from laughing so hard.
You guys think you know everything and if you don't then the only other people that know more are the ones like Holley etc. You're a pathetic example of a hot-rodder but boy is it fun to see you try and poke fun at people that could hand you your ***. Last time I had this much fun was when I was talking to some ricers at a Wawa that wanted to race.
BTW, if you wanted to compare $/HP with my car you might want to open your eyes and see that I've only spent $530 on the whole TBI setup I've got now. That includes eprom burning equipment, tuning software, a fuel pressure gauge, AFPR, injectors, laptop and everything except for gas! I would consider MY engine one hell of a deal since I spent $3000 in my COMPLETE engine swap, brand new "truck crate motor" and lots of good stuff like the stewarts stage 2 pump, RPM intake, blah blah blah. I'm still using the stock ignition system, no MSD , just a typical stock TBI ignition!

 

DD2000 says an MSD box will add 40HP to a stock TBI engine at 7000 RPM!!! You should get two and make 80 HP more!!

Seriously, what's with the BS flag on the MSD? You must not think it works on cars that need it (high RPM, high HP with one coil). And you did overlook the fact that the CC article had a 4V TBI on a PFI single plane manifold. I guess you could make the 4V TBI work with an external injector driver board and the factory ECM but if you can't, that means having to buy the TBI unit with the aftermarket ECM and a single plane manifold to duplicate the CC article. Not exactly free or cheap. And what's with all the derogatory comments? I didn't see any in his post so why be so childish? After all, he did plug in some new numbers into DD2000 and came up with a lower figure that was more reasonable. So he did his part and you're attacking him? Would you agree with the new figures at least?

 

i need some help im trying to find roughly how much horsepower im pushing. i dont have the desktop dyno. and i cant find a dyno around here. i have an 88 firebird 305 tbi, K&N air filter, edelbrock intake manifold, a mild cam, heads have been ported and polished, 3 angle valve job, 90# valve springs, dynomax headers, 160 highflow thermostat, hypertech stage 2 chip, 2 1/2 inch y-pipe then 3 inch pipe to my flowmaster 80- series muffler, no cat emissions taken, trans-go shift kit, 3.42 gears. thats all i have done to her right know. can someone give me rough idea of what my horsepower is. thanks

 

Jon, I was turnin' a wrench when you were still poo pooin' in your Pampers, so don't tell me I know nothing. And I can guarantee that you won't be the one handing me my ***. If anyone has the right to say such a thing, it's my wife. She owns my ***.

I appreciate your efforts with what you've done with your car. They're commendable. You've done a lot with your car, and your ET's show it. But I'm sure you're finding the limits of the factory TBI system. I'm not saying the TB itself, but the entire system.

BTW, the Holley TB that you're using was designed for trucks. You need to educate yourself about what you buy. I'm sure if Holley had a way to sell a TB that would hook to the factory ECM and make serious HP, then they wouldn't have bothered designing an entire system that does.

I'm not saying that TBI can't be made to perform "OK". Obviously it can. You've shown that. But unless you drop some serious cash into your fuel delivery system, you're not gonna make any more HP than you are now. Unless you can produce 125#/hr injectors, you're never gonna see 400HP. Then you have to get the factory ECM to provide the necessary fuel maps and timing tables to do it. Why do you think it hasn't been done yet? As a matter of fact, later on down the road I will probably get a Pro-Jection system or something equivalent. But as of right now, I don't feel like forking over +$2000 to fuel +400HP, when I know I don't have to. And who knows, by then electric cars may be the only ones that are allowed on the road.

Oh yea.. I was not offended by the comment you made about DD2000. I simply pointed out how closed minded you're being about it. It's actually a very useful program. As I said, you wouldn't know 'cause you're too worried about putting it down. There are things you just have to understand about it in order for it to work accurately. And you have to know it's limits. Kind of like TBI, well actually EFI in general.

And I never changed subjects. I simply made you a proposition. You're the one that has turned this into a name calling sissy fight.

Here.... I'll call you a name so maybe you'll feel better.

"JPrevost!!!!!!"

There. Top that.

AJ

 

AJ,
I do have the Holley 300-49 intake and the Holley 502-6 TBI unit on my vehicle, and it works very well. Using the stock computer with it works well too.
Of course the intake and TBI unit are matched well, and I would highly suggest that if you upgrade to the Holley unit, you should have a manifold to match it well.
A high-rise carb manifold would do as well with it. Just be sure that it has the 2" bores.
I also had to get a TPS connector for the unit because the stock unit had the circular plug on it.
I can't emphasize enough about having a computer-compatible camshaft. I did have serious idling problems and the computer tried and tried to over-compensate with the original cam I had in the new engine.
The solution for my dilemma was obtaining the Crane 2030 FT cam. I sacrificed some lift, but now my car runs very well.
The TBI unit is a great upgrade if you plan on using your stock ECM and wiring harness. Be sure to match up the manifold, and by all means be positive about what camshaft you use with your combo.
After the cam was replaced, the only real problems I have had is the car throwing a code 43 now and again, but I am sure that if I replace the knock sensor and ESC module with one designed for a 350 motor, I should be fine.
Other than that, no problems.
Car runs very well and has a very healthy sound to it as well. There are more things I want to do in the future, and they will be tackled one at a time, but at least my engine runs fantastic!
Rear end gears and stall converter as well as posi unit are on my agenda as well. Just a matter of time... and money.
The price we pay for performance.....

 

With that cam I would be surprised to see it dyno over 300rwhp. Good luck though, get it DYNO'D FOR REAL!

 

Like I said in the other post, the thing I still dont understand about dd2k is the cam selection. Even at .050 lift the zz3 cam is 270 duration, when it should be about 210-215. If you put the lt1 cam in with 205/207 lift at .050 lift - which is what its rated at - it gives you a lot of funkey numbers. Oh well, one day ill figure out all this computer stuff, lol!

 

If you guys are really worried about not being able to apply enough 'CFMage' than just plug this puppy on and be done with it .

Now That's a TBI lol

 

does anybody know of a online dyno thing. i dont have a computer to myself, so i cant use desktop dyno. and i would like to find out how much hp im pushing. cant find any dynos around here to take my car to.

 

Also here is my estimates for my buildup. Now this is using TPI, not TBI, but it also doesn't take in account all the little extra's i'll be running.

334 Desktop Dyno

Here is my build:
334 (Stroked 305)
TPIS Big Mouth TPI intake base
ported plenum
speed density
BBK 52mm Throttle Body
PowerMax 2030 cam
AS&M L98 Semi-siamesed runners (polished)
24# Ford Motorsport injectors #FMS-M9593A302
SLP Cold Air Induction
SLP airfoil
S/R torquer 305's
Crane 1.6 Gold self-aligning rockers
SLP ceramic coated 1¾” Headers - for the ATI soon to come.
Custom made Forged pistons - for the eventual 8lbs of boost

I have bunch of other little things I am adding as well, but I compared the cost to the LS1 swap and they came in about the same, except with the 305 I get to keep my AC and my original numbers matching block.

Another great thing is most of the stuff above can be purchased through ebay for much less than retail.

The Desktop Dyno shows 356hp at 5k (357 at 5500 RPM), and an amazing 422ft. lbs of torque at 2500RPM, can we say hole shot?

I actually think that both my HP and Torque will be higher. This is due to the upgraded TPI components that DD2000 doesn't allow you to plug in, or it just makes DD2000 accurate. Still either way not to bad for a NA 305 Soon to be blown.

James

 

I get 313 HP at 5000 rpms and 360 TQ at 4000 RPMs (more like 3500), which I think is a lot more reasonable. Fortunately, I didnt give a crap about numbers matching, and have a lot more engine to show for it.

By the way, our TPI combos have no place in this TBI forum. Unless we're just tempting them to come to the MPFI side.

 

Well, I figured I would post it because I have the TBI right now

As far as numbers matching coming from a line of car collectors (my dad is big in to old T-birds) I think a numbers matching car was engrained into my head. I also like the idea of gas mileage hehe Especially on my numerous trips to vegas... It really helps, and you can't beat AC out there.