This is on a 2nd gear pull at WOT from 2000 rpm to 5000. The time you're concerned about is about 3 seconds to about 12 seconds. That's with stock injectors/tbi at 15 psi.

Make your own conclusions...

 

So are you saying if we do heads and cam we should go to larger injectors. Like 454 injectors. Or is that too large.

 

Now the question is: What is the injector Duty cycle at 12 seconds / the 5000rpm mark?

 

That was my question, too. I need to figure that out but unfortuately I only had the A/F logging capabilities at the time.

 

Well, change the aldl stream to spit out Inj PW and you've got it.

 

Yea, I'll be doing that but I only had my WBO2 hooked up when I was doing this. My lap top took a crap and so my only logging capablity is with the Innvative.

 

Chuck,

What is the wbo2? I keep reading about people getting them hooked up, but I have no idea what it is.

Thanks man

Bill

 

It stands for wide band 02. It is the only way to effectively determine air fuler ratios at WOT. You cannot rely on the readout os the stock 02. Using a WB02 is the only way to dial in a tune at WOT. You commonly here people refer to it as dyno tuning. The use a wide band and the dyno to reach high speeds and have all the computer stuff on hand. They retail for 300 to 400 bucks.

 

Shifty,

Hey bud. Thanks. I am starting to understand a little, but do you just install a wb02 on the car or how does it work?

Thanks bro,

Bill

 

There are a few ways to run one. It taps into your exahust much like you 02 sensor does. You can burn a chip and keep your car in open loop which will allow you to plug the wide band into the 02 sensor since the car does not use the 02 in open loop. Or you can weld an additional 02 bung into the exhaust near the 02 bung (it is posistion sensitive though). You then just run the wire into the car where you plug it into the hand held device. You can also have it go to a lap top or whatever tuning stuff you have.

 

Shifty,

Thanks brother. Do you use one on your car? If so how is yours set up? I just got a laptop so I am ready to start doing some of the datalogging. Oh yeah what is the best thing for burning the chips? So far I have the cable, laptop, winbin, and tunerpro. Any other software that you think I should have?

Thanks

Bill

 

I do not have one myself but I am good friends with Chuck! who posted this thread. Since he is so good at prom burning I have him to all the work Send him or Dewey a PM and they will hook you up with whats best. You are deffinatly on the right track.

 

wide band o2s are worth their weight in gold

 

you are going to pick up alot of horsepower


Trust me.. Ive been where you are at

 

Good to hear Pablo Leaner is meaner in my case I guess.

I really would like to know exactly what RPM/MAP those #'s are occuring at so I can adjust accordingly, so I was going to buy the stuff to get that with the WBO2 but then they have that daughter board hopefully comming out in the fall for the 8746 and that seems better. Yahrg, so many decisions. It's still not getting enough pump shot either, as its backfiring when I get on it, I gotta fix that it's annoying as hell.

 

a bird in hand is better than two in the tree

if you wait for that **** to come out youll grow old and grey. I used to think lik that but stuff just never came out or was different when it did etc.. just get it now

I have the tech edge setup and despite all these people talking smack on them, the thing works really well for me. As long as you can just get the info you need you are set i think alot of people get a little set on overkill when it comes to data aquisition, like they need this fancy console and all that to make it work. My WB02 takes a log as a TXT file and i open it in notepad, very bare bones but it works kick ***.

I went years running way too rich because of tools on these message boards throwing around their ideas and theories about how much fuel a car is supposed to have to make x times.. I can tell you right now that if you go by the accepted number out there that get repeated you are going to be way too rich. Lean is mean.

 

Chuck: the PE is lacking but how is general drivability without involking AE/PE.? That is with stock bin and no VE fuel table correction. That was me day one. all mods done and out the door on stock CF bin and tune. i never did datalog it since the 7747 came with that endeavor later. but i am certain i was as lean as you or leaner. i think i tried PE once/twice. it revved to 5000 but i suspected way lean. AE was woefully inadequate. in fact i think there was little to none(AE). cough/die on AE. idle fine. revved in idle, but never under load. driove it two days and parked it awaiting all the tuning goodies to arrive UPS.

 

FYI, i don't have a link ot a source. but there is less power loss for 1point rich, than there is for 1 point lean.

so, if you make the most power at 12:1 you make power at 11:1 than you do at 13:1 (those numbers are entirely example.)

i can really get into the physics of this if you guys want. but i think those who understand teh fuel/energy/oxygen relationship, will understand why that is the case.

 

What would that number be?

 

I meant to say "numbers" plural... just off hand referring to the equations out there.


I just feel sorry for people that get set on this mental overkill rich/safe mode like anytime you increase hp you are going to need tons of fuel to cover it.

 

No smack involved, they violated the user's agreement, and thus ruined some other DIY projects.

On the other hand the Innovative, isn't pirated, has excellent US tech support, is a US built product, and is expandable for data logging, of more then just the AFR.

With people finally waking up to the fact that we need to start keeping jobs here in the US, and their track record, it just doesn't make any sense, IMO, to buy anything from TE.

 

:hail: I am glad some people have thier heads on straight. :hail:

 

Thats pretty weak, you are just butthurt that you didn't make money off the thing when you could.

The matter of job outsourcing is another one entirely, and the way you put it sounds like we are in crisis mode.

I dunno, Id call it the maturation of our workforce.. has nothing to do with a couple guys making wide band oxygen sensors anyways.

Maybe you should contact your local socialist party if you think Adam Smith was wrong.

Every one here kisses your *** too which I find so laughable...

no offense shifty, but wipe the brown off your nose

 

btw my TE unit logs more than just afr, out of the box too, no upgrades to buy.


stop making stuff up man.

 

Wow I geuss I struck a nerve with nothing more than a simple quote. I was going way beyond making an 02. Obviously you must not be involved with american manufacturing. But that is not a matter for the boards. I don't know what you find so laughable. No one is throwing me a party or patting me on the back. If they are I missed it. As for what I made up, you got me on that one

 

the only line directed toward you was the one about brown

 

I am just helping people out and not trying to impress anyone. I am never one to float my own boat and I am sorry that you feel that way. No offense taken.

 

Pablo, when are you going to get your head out of your ***?
Nobody says you need an awesome data-aq but guess what, unlike you're car which runs like junk on TBI mine has never missed a day or running even with major problems. I can tell you now that the only way I figured out what was wrong with my car was using the awesome tools that I have instead of spending days wasting money on replacement parts that don't need replacing.
TE ripped off the design and if you can't get that through your head then you're biased, not us. You obviously bought the product because you didn't care about the community that helps you and instead are looking out for yourself. That's fine and dandy but don't come into our world and start talking smack about how TE is a reputible company when facts prove otherwise.
I personally don't like TE and I have had prior dealings with them... they have never impressed me. What has impressed me is the ability of people like RBob, Grumpy, Trax, Ken, and all the other guys that provide invaluable help at no cost to the members of this forum.
What you do miss without having good data-aq is the finer things in life. Like being able to adjust your prop gains dead nutz, being able to get a rock solid idle in no time and light throttle being a BREEZE. You also don't have the ability to see what your computer is doing with the spark... only fuel. Just to let you know... fuel just needs to be close, spark tells your engine how it behaves so you're still somewhat blind to all things DIY.
Also so you know; TE's design was junk. Even thogh they ripped off the DIY design they ran power traces and signal traces parallel and used non-automotive grade components that had problems when it got cold or too warm.... it was a RIP OFF.
I think I've said what I came here to say, if I missed something I'll be back .

 

Typical leaning out when you've opened the exhaust and intake restrictions on your motor. Also the cam helps with getting more air so you need more fuel... no brainer.
I'd just try and richen up some areas that you think are rich from the data-log and go through the same process until you get improvements. Definatly watching the DC to make sure the work you're doing tuning isn't wasted from having too small of an injector (or low fuel pressure).

 

Richen up where its already rich? Is the computer doing stuff I dont know or was that just a typo? Ive been leaning out the lower rpms (where its rich) and adding fuel the in the upper ones (where its lean) and it seems to be getting better.

 

might have been mentioned in that mess up there somewhere but...

Although its a bit excessive, the richness (supposed to be 11 something:1) in the middle is done intentionally to sap the oxygen out of the exaust around peak torque areas in order to protect the cat. At low and high rpms its supposed to go up to around ~13 on the stock motor. Changing the motor around shifted the VEs causing it to go real rich in the middle and leaner out top. If your still running a cat id try and match the actual AFRs to those that are commanded in the stock bin.

 

could you kiss their *** any harder? lol

seriously, you are starting to sound gay..

Take this next bit as constructive criticism:
I read only a couple lines of your post your posts are excessively wordy I basically never read them. Usually its about 1 sentence dealing with the topic at hand, and then a bunch of hero worship in conjunction with an attempt to impress them and others. Look up the word Bombastic, might give you a hint on what I mean.

Definately alot of mental masturbation in your posts too.

And.. at the end of it all, you need a gmpp 350 and everything else you jerk off to grumpy et al over to run basically what my junkyard 305 runs... lol hahah thats pretty pathetic

 

Not taking sides or anything, just making a strictly objective observation. Your running 416s with a cam that has 212 deg of duration at the intake, no? If that be so then your motor is probably pretty close to what he is running, with the exception of the extra 45 cu. in. of displacement. I dont really see anything pathetic about two very close motors running similar times. Jsut each has a different induction system. Even with no tuning he still ran some fairly respectable times.

Another thing about TBI is that your starting at the very bottom performance wise. With TPI at least the motor that was there was something that dimly resembled a performance motor so an upgrade to a better engine or mods produce better times. With the tbi the calibrations arnt even close to alot of the motors that people put in. Then when they run bad times its usually the fault of the tbi when its really the tuning. With the stock tuning youll pretty much ahve to redo everything in order to get the motor to perform and that can be quite an undertaking. I got so frustrated that I jsut scraped most everything in the bin and started fresh. Thats one thing that I think alot of carb guys cant apreciate is that with efi, you are the brains of the system. The computers just a stupid machine that endlessly executes instructions with little regard to the actual process. Theres no other way for the computer to know what it is controlling other then what it is told and what logic algorithms that it has been given. With a carb alot of the work has already been done for the user, so while it still requires some tuning, at least alot of the major controls with relation to airflow are built into it and its just up to the user to set it up properly.

 

Perhaps this thread has run its course. I asked shifty to lock it. Thank you to anyone who offered advice.

 

just to clarify, 214 intake duration, and yes he has 40 more cubes better pistons, a factory gm built brand new motor and vortec heads

yep 416s here... stock size 1.84/1.5 valves, if they are comparable to vortecs then Im a **** hot head porting guy.

 

While the 416s arnt equal to a stock set of vortecs theyre not a bad flowing head. Id be willing to bet that they far outflow my heads. I also dont see how age has that much to do with it unless excessive tolerances and wear have robbed your motor of compession or have caused serious mechanical issues. Even old motors that are in a good state of tune will still work well and high 13's seem spot on for your combo and I think his car is performing about where it should be for a full sized car with a 350 rated at 330 HP. Im a firm believer that gas is gas and air is air and as long as it gets where its got to go in the right proportions the motor will make power. Not directed at you but some people make it sound like a carb somehow endows fuel and air with magical powers and that just having tbi makes performance go out the window.

I definatly second that this thread should be locked. The posts here have gotten to be more on the side of being personal.

 

This has gone far enough. When it boils down to it; opinions are like a*s holes, everyone has one and it stinks. We all have different ways of making our own TBI projects performers. One guys is not always the same as the next but that doesn't mean it is wrong provided the results are the same.