TBI Throttle Body Injection discussion and questions. L03/CFI tech and other performance enhancements.

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Old 04-28-2006, 10:35 AM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by xjcamaro89
I thought I was at WOT, . . .but I thought i had my foot to the floor.
May need to do the floor mat mod

Sounds crazy but many 3rd gens can't go to WOT as the factory floor mats prevent it. I have mine moved to the side a little to get it out from under the go-pedal.

Even without the floor mat one needs to push to pedal into the carpet. It is helpful to lift the carpet and remove some padding from under the go-pedal. Then put the carpet back.

RBob.

Last edited by RBob; 04-28-2006 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 04-28-2006, 02:34 PM
  #202  
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Ooooreeaaallly??? Rbob's right if you did indeed have your foot to the floor you have something going on here. Might want to get a buddy or girl friend to push the pedal to the floor while you verify that you are actually going wide open. If you are getting WOT and the TPS still reads 50% you have something wrong with your TPS or wiring.

Man you'r ein for a surprise if your only opening the throttle 50%!!!
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Old 04-28-2006, 03:48 PM
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Ill take a look, thanks!
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Old 04-28-2006, 04:24 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by xjcamaro89
Im sorry!!!! jk I thought I was at WOT, i didnt look at the log enough. but I thought i had my foot to the floor. Also I was wondering. in the SA tables, what kind of increase constitutes for a degree of timing? I will also set my PE down a little farther, i didnt lower it from when we raised it before, thanks! But all the driving information i posted looks close to normal or in the ball park and nothing is out of the ordinary, thanks!
I was trying to be kind when I said you were being gentle on the throttle with your WOT run. If you really thought you had the pedal to the wood and you were happy with the results, just wait until you truely go WOT. The first accel in your WOT log took you about 27 seconds to go from 5 to 85 mph. It should take way less than that!! Yee ha.
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Old 04-30-2006, 11:59 AM
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BMonteSS,
It looks like the bin you loaded has 20 degrees of timing added to the picture you posted. It there a reason for this? I've been been putting my timing in like the picture you posted in TunerPro RT.
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Old 04-30-2006, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bluzman2004
BMonteSS,
It looks like the bin you loaded has 20 degrees of timing added to the picture you posted. It there a reason for this? I've been been putting my timing in like the picture you posted in TunerPro RT.
What version of Tunerpro are you using? Must be an earlier one (ie. pre 4.0) Because that 20 degrees added would be the main spark bias, the bias is 20.04* and is subtracted from the entire table, which is why the table shows +20 all around.

Tunerpro 4.0 and later using Prevost's xdf already takes the bias into account and subtracts it from the table, showing the true values in the table, which is easier to look at. I believe Tunercat does this too.
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Old 04-30-2006, 01:47 PM
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My bad. I found the problem in my file. The file that is posted sure has a lot less timing in it that my stock file did.(antt) Is this where most people find the best miliage and power for stock L03 headed 305 motors. I'm just trying to get my timing dialed in. It's harder that the VE tables sincese there's no real marker to look at like BLMs.
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Old 05-01-2006, 08:10 AM
  #208  
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Are you sure you had more than 28 deg of timing at WOT? Most stock cals I've looked at never get much more than low 20's once you factor in the offsets, PE adders and RPM adders.

It seems that most people find that around 28 deg is where max power is made with the SP heads. Every combo is different so it really depends. You may want to look up Rbob's writeup on how to use a TBI ecm as a timing only computer. He lays out exactly how timing is calculated and how everything is added up, very informative and very complete.

XJ,

Have you figured anything out with the throttle yet? I have a sneaky suspicion that the linkage provided by holley didn't jive with the camaro cable and brackets. I've always had to do some kind of fab work to get all the ratio's to work out correctly.
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Old 05-01-2006, 11:32 AM
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No i havent got around to checking anything yet, i had a very busy weekend, swap meets, garden, that kind of stuff. I might get to look at it on tuesday evening. I do want to say that when i put the engine in that we did modify the throttle cable bracket to clear the open element air cleaner, maybe that is messing up the WOT position. But then again, i might not have had my foot to the floor to begin with. i will let you guys know, thanks!
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:00 PM
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This is the stock spark table in my antt file. I thought that in TunerPro RT, what you see is what you get in the spark table?
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Old 05-01-2006, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bluzman2004
This is the stock spark table in my antt file. I thought that in TunerPro RT, what you see is what you get in the spark table?
No. In that case it is not true. It looks like you imported the old .ecu file into .xdf format, which is fine, but Prevost wrote a new .xdf file for 4.0 and it's quite a bit better. Let me see if I can attach it, just remove the .txt file extension and you're good to go.
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Old 05-01-2006, 03:00 PM
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If you didn't verify that you were getting WOT when you swapped on the Holley TBI then I can almost guarantee that your not getting WOT. The Holley TB was meant for trucks and the linkage is different. I like to increase the distance between where your throttle cable hooks up and the throttle shaft to help make the pedal longer and give me more control over the throttle. If you do this you have to make sure that youíre still getting wot, your pedal will just start out higher than stock. This helps tame the massive surge you can get when you first crack open the throttle with a big TB.

I have seen very few manifolds or TBís that didnít require some sort of fab work on the brackets to make everything work correctly.
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Old 05-01-2006, 06:08 PM
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Thanks Bron...

Now I have to relook at everything I have been doing with my timing. I read your profile. We have the same car except you have done a little more to the motor. How does it run with the heads, cam, and intake?
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Old 05-04-2006, 11:25 PM
  #214  
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My first Datalog

Hey Monte this is my first datalogg ive done to my 91 camaro rs 305 tbi 5 speed can you point me out to some of this log since im a newbie at tuning thanks Martin
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20060504_204230_LOG.txt.txt (26.2 KB, 82 views)
File Type: txt
20060504_204658_BLM.txt.txt (9.0 KB, 87 views)
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20060504_204708_INT.txt.txt (8.9 KB, 50 views)
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Old 05-04-2006, 11:26 PM
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continued
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Old 05-05-2006, 07:08 AM
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Hey guys, Bmmonte. I havent abandoned you guys, work has been crazy and too much stuff to do in the evenings. I havent been able to get at my car for the past week, but i will check things out tonight, i have to start cleaning everything up for the first car show of the year on sunday, thanks guys!
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Old 05-05-2006, 07:26 AM
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Where in TunerPro do I set my PE back down, Bmonte did it for me the first time and we never really talked about what it is called in TunerPro, thanks!
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Old 05-05-2006, 11:04 AM
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I believe it's "PE - TPS Threshold Vs. RPM for PE mode High coolant" under the tables section. If you open it up and it says whatever % Bomnte set it at then that's it.
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Old 05-05-2006, 11:12 AM
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exactly in constants. i just dropped mine a bit to 50%. it was said having in come in exactly where AE times out is beneficial. BUT the lower you set- the fuel mileage suffers.
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Old 05-05-2006, 11:28 AM
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Mine is under tables, is it suposed to be under consatants? So your what your saying is that if the AE threshold is 50% TPS then set PE to come on at 50% TPS? Is this so that AE and PE are not working at the same time and/or so that PE can take up where AE left off?
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Old 05-05-2006, 11:32 AM
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i use TC so apparently tables=constants. mine was set last year at 70%. in my logs of AE i see it timing out and then spikes lean and PE comes to rescue. changed it to 50% last week. cant log WB 02 sensor took a puke. SOP is a little better but WB logs will be proof.
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Old 05-08-2006, 08:05 AM
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92bird, it looks like you have teh 10K resistor between pin A and B. Your TBI ecm doesn't need this and it needs removed. This resistor puts the ECM in ALDL mode and locks the timing and does some other funky stuff. Need to fix this before you go any further. Also post a short discription of how the car is running along with the log, some times things go on that don't show up in a log.
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Old 05-08-2006, 02:26 PM
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ok monte i try to see if i can figure where the 10k resistor is. i bought this aldl link cable of ebay. ill probally post some pics of the aldl box maybe someone can point something out and ill re-datalogg it. Thanks Martin
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:09 AM
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ok, sorry for the delay, my throttle is opeing the whole way when the pedal is pushed to the floor (it took a while to get someone to help me when I had the car out) So i probably didnt have my foot to the floor in those runs I did. And i doubt that my TPS is bad, its on a brand new Holley TBI unit. (So it must have been all in my head that I thought I had it at WOT) Also I drove the car sunday to the car show, i started it from a dead cold and let it idle for 2-3 mins and then left and when i did the car stalled out, it also did this when I went to leave the car show. It sort of felt like the engine was loaded up and when I tried to go the engine tried to clear itself out and stalled out. So i went back and played with my wall wetting and pump shot and drastically decreased them both. I still have my throttle response and I cant get the car to recreate the problem I had on sunday, so i think that all the extra wall wetting and pump shot was loading up the engine at idle from a dead cold and causing it to stall.
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Old 05-12-2006, 07:49 AM
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Pump shot is a funny beast, it's so much easier to tune with a WB since you can see exactly what is going on when you hit the throttle. Glad to hear you got it figured out. Now lets see that WOT log.
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Old 05-12-2006, 08:40 AM
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Ok, it might be a little bit before i get one posted, forecast calls for rain for the next 5-6 days here, plus im still very busy with other stuff,(lots of car shows) but i will eventually get one posted, thanks for all your help
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Old 05-12-2006, 06:58 PM
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Since xj is going to be tied up for a couple days would it be okay if I posted my datalogs and bin for a little help? I know that 92birdconv is next in line, but if he doesn't mind and it's alright with everyone else, I'll go ahead and post up my info and get feedback while he is trying to get his cable squared away.
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Old 05-12-2006, 07:04 PM
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i dont ming im trying to figure out whitch one is the 10k resistor on my aldl cable box.. ill give it a shot tonight and remove the 10k risitor i believe is.
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Old 05-12-2006, 09:26 PM
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Sure go right ahead.
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Old 05-13-2006, 12:55 AM
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Ok, I have a 92 rs with an l03 with a T5. My only mods so far are a drop base 3in open air filter, hedman shorty headers, 3in flowmaster exaust, and a set of underdrive pullies. When I bought the car it had a 160 degree thermostat and some kind of hypertech chip which is what I have been modifying. I am using WinALDL and TunerPro.

So far I have changed:
1. Top speed cutoff set to 255
2. Set Highway SA MPH threshold to 255 so I can log on the interstate without worrying about that.
3. So I can see my total VE in TunerPro, I set all VE#2 values to 0 below 3200 RPM, and added them to the main VE table. Would it be a good idea to change it back to how it was before or is this ok?
4. PE TPS threshold to 50% instead of 25%
5. Changed PE- WOT ARF to 12.5 across the RPM range.


I've been trying to get my BLM's as close to 128 as I can and when I get knock counts of about 3 or 4 in a cell I take timing from that area. The below bin is my 6th attempt at trying to get my BLM's leveled out and to eliminate knock with the hypertech chip as a starting point. I'd also like to say thanks to BMmonte, xj, and everyone else who helped add to this thread. It has really helped me to realize that I might just be able to get the hang of this tuning thing, with a little help.
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20060513_010426_BLM.txt (9.2 KB, 85 views)
File Type: txt
20060513_010433_KNOCK.txt (831 Bytes, 57 views)
File Type: txt
20060513_003724_LOG.txt (106.0 KB, 51 views)
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Old 05-13-2006, 01:13 AM
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Here's the bin and the 02 log.
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20060513_010439_O2.txt (9.0 KB, 56 views)
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Old 05-13-2006, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by DrivinVA305
Ok, I have a 92 rs with an l03 with a T5. My only mods so far are a drop base 3in open air filter, hedman shorty headers, 3in flowmaster exaust, and a set of underdrive pullies. When I bought the car it had a 160 degree thermostat and some kind of hypertech chip which is what I have been modifying. I am using WinALDL and TunerPro.

So far I have changed:
1. Top speed cutoff set to 255
2. Set Highway SA MPH threshold to 255 so I can log on the interstate without worrying about that.
3. So I can see my total VE in TunerPro, I set all VE#2 values to 0 below 3200 RPM, and added them to the main VE table. Would it be a good idea to change it back to how it was before or is this ok?
4. PE TPS threshold to 50% instead of 25%
5. Changed PE- WOT ARF to 12.5 across the RPM range.


I've been trying to get my BLM's as close to 128 as I can and when I get knock counts of about 3 or 4 in a cell I take timing from that area. The below bin is my 6th attempt at trying to get my BLM's leveled out and to eliminate knock with the hypertech chip as a starting point. I'd also like to say thanks to BMmonte, xj, and everyone else who helped add to this thread. It has really helped me to realize that I might just be able to get the hang of this tuning thing, with a little help.
Overall, it looks pretty good. Your BLMs are pretty solid for the most part, but you need to do in log in which you get more data in the spots where it says you only got 1-3 samples, because you want to hone in on the accuracy of them. Looks pretty good, I don't like how you have the 3200 row in VE1 drop off like that, where VE2 compensates, looks like you have 12.5 as the constant number up to 2800, take it up to 3200. That's a decent method, I don't like to zero it, you want a smooth transition when it goes onto the VE2 table above 3200 so 0's would be bad. Just my opinion. Also, in VE1 there is too big of a drop from 30kPa to 20 kPa. Look at your VE at 2800RPM and 100MAP the value is 108.59 you're maxed out. The injectors will be maxed there, I have a feeling you just threw in a little too much VE in the table and the engine doesn't actually need that much. How does it run WOT? Does it bog at all?

One more thing to check, what have you set your distributors timing at? In the bin it has initial timing at 11.25 degrees. You need to set your distributor to that or change the bin value to whatever you're physically set at. To show why you need to verify this. Let's look at a WOT run, as you leave the main spark table at 100kPa at 3600RPM You have 22.50 degrees commanded. Your spark advance slope added is 3.52 degrees/1000RPM. The max RPM that will slope up to is 4000 and then spark will be held constant. Also, when in PE (ie WOT in this case) you have 3.87* added at 100kPa. So, if your distrib is set correctly at this 11* your total timing at say 4000RPM would be (22.50* + 1.408* (slope after 400RPM) + 3.87* (PE) = 27.78* So, about 28* which is pretty much right where you want to be. Now let's say you have the distrib still set stock at 0* you will have that extra 11.25* of timing subtracted from that value. So, you have about 17* of timing then! Way too retarded. Got a little long here, haha just check all that stuff out, but for the most part you seem to be on a good track, nice job, keep going with it, it becomes pretty fun to be able to change whatever you want.

later
Jim

edited as per BM's correction.

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Old 05-13-2006, 10:21 AM
  #233  
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[QUOTE=BMmonteSS] I hope that we can get so many bin files posted that people will realize all they need is a burner and they can pick a bin file that most closely matches their combo and start from there. Heck if they just buy the equipment and only burn Jimbob’s header only bin then at least the good guys of the hobby (Moates, tuner cat, tunerpro) will get their money instead of the bottom feeding companies that offer mail order crap. This way at least when things go terribly wrong with a cam swap Mr. “I don’t wanna tune” will have the tools necessary to fix his car.


I know that this was at the beginning but where is this header only bin located?

And who is Jimbob?

RB?

Sorry if I've missed this somewhere
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Old 05-13-2006, 11:41 AM
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Ok, I'm not quite sure what happened with the bin I loaded but it had somethings in it that I didn't set. The main VE table and the main SA table are the same but there are some other things going on in there that got mixed up somehow, maybe when I converted to .txt. How do I go about posting up a .bin file?

Jim, thanks for the reply. The part about having a smooth transition from the main VE table to the adder table makes a lot of sense. Do you think I could set the adder table from 2800-400 to some constant and then maybe lower the 3200 value a little to make a smoother transition? I really like how TunerPro lets you view and change the graph at the same time, that's the main reason why I changed but if the car will run better with it back then that's no problem. One thing that I'm wondering though is what is the 0 RPM cell in the adder table for?

I'll head out today and log some of the high MAP cells and post those up.

EDIT: Hopefully this attachment will work better, sorry about that
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Old 05-13-2006, 01:54 PM
  #235  
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Bronyraur is right on with his anylasis, except for one point. If he has his distributor set to 0 deg and his chip set to 11 deg then his timing will be retarded. The computer subtracts this value to cancel out the physical timing at the dissy. So you'll be retarded instead of advanced....unless of course you have your timing set for more than this value.

DM,

My vision was to have a "library" of bin files for guys to try out. As you can see XJ's chip as quickly spun into the realm that I would be pretty hesitant to try it in any one elses car. This is EXACTLY why we say it's impossible to burn a chip for a car you have never seen, let alone datalogged. It looks like DrivinVA's setup is a little closer to what I had envisioned as a simple exhaust only type of car. So his bin might stand a better chance of working in another car.

If you guys would like I can throw together some basic bin files that have the simple stuff already changed along with a little timing added in. Then we'll have a chip that everyone can start from.
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Old 05-13-2006, 02:26 PM
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Thanks for the reply as I was not sure what was meant in that first post.

Your idea of a library of bins to try would be a great learning tool IMHO. Once someone sent me a bin of their's I quickly learned my misunderstandings. (It was a car similar to mine in mods and it was tuned well)

I wished this thread existed years ago.

Excellent work!
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Old 05-13-2006, 04:11 PM
  #237  
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I pushed the PE TPS threshold back to 60% and think I filled in the BLM cells a little better this time, but I forgot to record a log so all I have are the tables . I also have my physical timing set to 0*. Taking Bronyraur's advice, I brought the VE#2 table up to 35 under 3200 to smooth out the transition some and I adjusted my main VE table from my logs I posted earlier. I left the 20 kPa in my main VE table alone because it looks like I'm really rich in that area. Do you think it would be a good idea to go ahead and raise those values anyway? What really puzzles me are my knock counts, which got up to 66 on this run. With the amount of SA that I'm running, is it normal to get that many knock counts, or do you think that something else is setting off the ks?
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20060513_163420_BLM.txt (9.3 KB, 57 views)
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20060513_163359_KNOCK.txt (833 Bytes, 55 views)
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Old 05-13-2006, 11:13 PM
  #238  
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Here's my bin
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:44 PM
  #239  
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Originally Posted by BMmonteSS
Bronyraur is right on with his anylasis, except for one point. If he has his distributor set to 0 deg and his chip set to 11 deg then his timing will be retarded. The computer subtracts this value to cancel out the physical timing at the dissy. So you'll be retarded instead of advanced....unless of course you have your timing set for more than this value.
Thanks for correcting that BM. And I apologize to anyone reading it for giving misinformation, I'm going to edit it, that's what I get for typing big replies at the end of finals week when I'm wired hah.
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Old 05-18-2006, 12:54 PM
  #240  
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Originally Posted by DM91RS
BM

Thanks for the reply as I was not sure what was meant in that first post.

Your idea of a library of bins to try would be a great learning tool IMHO. Once someone sent me a bin of their's I quickly learned my misunderstandings. (It was a car similar to mine in mods and it was tuned well)

I wished this thread existed years ago.

Excellent work!
It would be nice to have a library of bins available based on engine size and modifications. For instance, stock, stock with exhaust mods, exhaust + cam, exhaust + cam + heads, etc. Engine displacement, cam specs, head specs would all be part of the library table. Starting from a known bin that works for a similar setup saves tons of tuning time. IMO, anyone motivated enough to buy chip burning equipment and the courage to try DIY tuning, should be smart enough to know it "use at your own risk". If you blow something up, you only need to look in the mirror to point the blame.

It's nice to see a growing community of TBI tuners on this board. I haven't found anyone not willing to share info, you just need to ask.
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Old 05-18-2006, 01:45 PM
  #241  
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VE table #2 at 0 rpms MUST have a value in it. mine happens to have 28. i dont recall why it needs one but it was explained some time ago. i ran 0's 400-2800 rpm table for quite a while. no issues i am aware of. then it was said to place a small value in those 0 tables like 5. i recently did. again i dont know what diff it made. when i change fueling i only change table 1. disregard table 2.
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Old 05-22-2006, 02:42 PM
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Ok, I've been busy with work and haven't had much time for tuning. Those spark counts seemed strange so I borrowed a timing light from one of my friends and checked my timing. I was assuming that it was at 0* because the car was pretty much stock when I bought it, but it was odd how I was getting way more knocks than I thought I should. So I hooked the timing light up and found out the timing at the distributor was set to 6* BTDC. I set that back to 0* and now everything is running much better. I suppose from the posts above that this means I was running 6* more total timing than I thought I was, because my base timing in my .bin file was set to 0?

BM, since I'm pretty much going to start over, could you post a .bin of what you think a full exaust, open element, 305 tbi would like? I think this would fit your original vision for this thread better, and it would give everyone with a car like mine a good starting point.
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:05 AM
  #243  
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To tell you the truth, I'm not exactly sure what will need changed. It's best to do a datalog with a stock .bin first and then we'll put something together. The final .bin we end up with for your car would be a better "starting point" bin than my best guess. So unfortunately you're going to have to be the guinea pig.
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Old 05-23-2006, 04:18 PM
  #244  
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That sounds good, I'd be glad to be the guinea pig. I've searched the DIY-EFI site and I'm not really sure which stock l03 bin to use, it seems like there are a couple. Could someone help me out with a stock bin for a manual '92 L03?
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Old 05-23-2006, 04:37 PM
  #245  
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Can you not copy what is in the car now?

Here is my stock bin....they are the same as far as I know.


http://www.moates.net/files/1)%20Sto...%205%20SPD.bin
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Old 05-23-2006, 04:57 PM
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I would, but when I bought the car it had some kind hypertech chip in it and I couldn't find the stock one anywhere. I'll take that one out and give it a try, thanks for the help DM.
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Old 05-23-2006, 05:59 PM
  #247  
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Ok, I burned the chip that DM posted and took about a 20 minute log. I set the high coolant PE TPS threshold to 60% and left the rest alone.
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20060523_182049_LOG.txt (157.3 KB, 74 views)
File Type: txt
20060523_184039_BLM.txt (9.3 KB, 79 views)
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20060523_184053_O2.txt (9.0 KB, 53 views)
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:10 PM
  #248  
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I took a quick look at your log files. Your BLM's don't look too bad, but could be improved. Most are on the rich side (below 128). I'm assuming you know how to tweak your VE tables to dial BLM's to 128. One or two iterations and you should be in the 126-130 range.

I noticed your log started out at 144* F engine temp, then went up and stabilized at about 170*. I suggest making sure you datalog starting with a warm engine (at thermostat regulating temperature) to avoid unnecessary variability in your logs. Are you running a 170*F stat?

I'm running a stock 91 l03 with open element, full exhaust, no cat, no smog, egr disabled, so very similar to your setup. I'm using a modified AXKW bin with good success. PM if your intested in looking at the bin.

DM901RS - I didn't check out the link you posted, but is that a completely stock AXKW bin that DrivinVA is now using?
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Old 05-24-2006, 02:31 PM
  #249  
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I'll get the VE tables dialed in a little bit better, but where I'm clueless is with the SA table. I know it's going to be sort of a feel thing but I'm not quite sure where to start. I am running a 170 stat, are there any constants that I need to change to account for this?
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Old 05-24-2006, 06:26 PM
  #250  
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Originally Posted by 91RockS
I'm running a stock 91 l03 with open element, full exhaust, no cat, no smog, egr disabled, so very similar to your setup. I'm using a modified AXKW bin with good success. PM if your intested in looking at the bin.

DM901RS - I didn't check out the link you posted, but is that a completely stock AXKW bin that DrivinVA is now using?
Yes it should be the stock bin with no mod's IIRC. It's been a while.

Dang....I forgot your good success with the stock engine with the basic mod's.

I believe this link would be a good addition to this thread.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tbi/...uning-tbi.html
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