Blazin4x4

no worries man... honestly I think you just hit it on the head. I'll check it out.


Thanks dude

M1tch

I have a question..

If i buy the ostrich for tuning my L03 i wont need to buy a burner correct? but if i buy stuff to burn chips i wont have to buy a programmer then? there is so much completely different information on different threads its trippin me out lol.. but i have $300 to spend and i am purchasing a laptop tomorrow so im all ready but i need the simplist setup to scan and datalog and burn..

I was reading a different thread and it said all i need is a cable, laptop, and ostrich and i can burn, scan, datalog, whatever.. and i can tune while running..

vernw

iTrader: (2)

The Ostrich replaces the chip, so no burner is required as long as you leave the Ostrich permanently connected to the ECM. However, if you ever want to put in a chip and take out the Ostrich, you'll still need a burner. The Ostrich allows emulating (tuning on the fly), but does not include a burner. You need the APU1 (Autoprom) if you want the built in burner as well, or get the Ostricha nd buy a Flash-n-Burn later on to burn your chips.

M1tch

So your saying that with the ostrich i can do the same thing that a chip burner can do.. i can datalog and change the ecms setup which is the same thing as burning a chip... or do i need to buy a chip burner to change the stock setup?? im just confused with the last part of your post, sorry..

But i'm buying the laptop today and hopefully the ostrich sometime this week.. what setup would you reccommend?

vernw

iTrader: (2)

You can datalog with either a chip or an Ostrich or an Autoprom. What is "inside" the computer doesn't matter - the datalogging is done thru the ALDL connector so it doesn't care where the prom calibration info is coming from, nor can it even tell which you're using (prom, AP, or Ostrich). The ALDL typically uses a serial cable to talk to the laptop. Typically because if you don't have a serial port you can use a serial-to-USB converter to plug it into the laptop if required.

The Ostrich and Autoprom both plug into the ECM where the original chip was located. Both can be used to change what the computer "see's" as what to do VE, spark, etc. wise. Both the AP and the O connect to your laptop via a USB cable. So the programming part is all done between the O/AP and your laptop via the USB cable. It has no effect on the data logging coming out the serial ALDL port.

Clear as mud now?

SO the Ostrich is great if you don't want or need a chip. The AutoProm is better becasue some day you amy want to put a chip in it and take off the AP. Or you can do an Ostrich now and get the Flash-n-Burn to burn you a chip later on and save some $ up front. The AP is really like the Ostrich and Flash-n-Burn combined into one unit. DOes that help?

M1tch

yea man thanks i appriciate it.. whats the cheapest route to go?

M1tch

Cant i just buy a laptop and this and burn chips? http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=48
will it work with tuner rt?

DM91RS

Yep that works good but you will still need a data log connection cable to use WINALDL. The cables are sometimes a pain in the a$$. I finally bought one from Moates that uses a usb port.....no serial bs

DM

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

i used a old aldl serial port cable to serial on laptop for years. then my new laptop was usb, so a radio shack serial to usb adapter worked flawlessly for me.

M1tch

So i buy this (BURN1 Flash-n-Burn USB-Based Chip Programmer), a laptop and a serial to usb cable which the serial port connects to the ecm? and i am ready to burn the stock chip? Is there a limit how many times that stock chip can be burned? Sorry for the retard questions, im still taking all this stuff in.. any downsides to this burner compared to the ostrich?

- Laptop
- BURN1 Flash-n-Burn USB-Based Chip Programmer
- Serial - USB cable?
- Flash Chips? where do i get these
- Done?

DM91RS

Moates has it all. The cable setup is high but has no issues with usb as I said.

M1tch

do i have to buy flash chips? ( im confused with the flash chips)

is it just a chip that can be reprogrammed over and over or can i keep the original one and burn it with the burner over and over.. and is there a limit?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

originally i used 2732-2732A and they needed to be erased UV. i think i had about 12 at $4 a piece. they did wear out so to speak. i never used a flash chip so not sure if they have a life expectancy. i suspect they do as everything does in life. issue may be wear on pins unless you use a ZIF. I used a ZIF(non permanentpiggy back) and it occasionally went loose(rough road) and went limp. had i soldered it in may have been different. i just inserted each 2732 carefully and no big deal. now i am prominator equipped and the ECU is back in its rightful place so my wife no longer kicks it(size 12) and dislodges prom. that is worth the cost right there. looks more professional. i still have two cables laying on floor(prominator feed and "whats up" feed. but i can live with that. someday i will use a plug in dash(very cool) and get them off floor.

dusty89camaro

I was wondering if BMmonte still had his excel spreadsheet for plugging in tables to calculate the new VE table with graphs to show the changes? I've read this entire thread two or three times, and I'm still a little unsure of the calculations done to smooth out the VE tables using the BLM. Maybe I just missed something somewhere? Whenever you get a chance, BMmonte, can you send me a PM or whatever and I'll give you my email. Thanks much!

I've been pouring over these forums quite extensively, and even in one week I've learned a lot. I want to thank everyone who has contributed as after more and more reading, the tuning process seems to make more and more sense. I think the only parts I have trouble with is where changes need to be made and why.

BMmonteSS

Hey guys, I was digging through an old disk I had laying around and found my old BLM tuner excell file. You'll have to unzip it, but I hope it'll help you out. I know a lot of guys have been asking about it, but it's been lost since my old laptop died.

doublelow49

BMmonteSS,

Am having trouble getting this file to unzip. Getting an "invalid or corrupt" error. I really would like to see how you are making your corrections to see if I'm doing mine right.

Would it be possible to get an e-mail copy from you (or somebody else that got a good download).

mccf1ms@aol.com

Thanks,
Buddy

355sbcTPI

Yeah, I'm having problems downloading it too. Can anybody else help out?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Try downloading it with FireFox, for some reason IE seems to have issues.

RBob.

BMmonteSS

Sorry guy's don't know what else to try, it's zipped with the free utility.

DM91RS

Boy this is the thread that just keeps going and going. Which is good, don't get me wrong. The excell tuner looks like what you sent me a long time ago. I did not have any problems downloading with Firefox.

Not to get too far off thread but does it cause any problems to use both Firefox and IE? It seems somethings work better on IE. But...not most.

RFmaster

New Request

Background information
The Ride
1975 C20 mild 350 (RV-cam) with 700R4 (5000lbs+ of Detroit Iron), 3.73 gears
Exhaust Dual 2-1/2 Flowmasters 40's
Headers Full size Dynomax
Intake: Holley 300-49
EFI: Stock SBC TBI with 61 lbs Injectors, 1" spacer, AFPR,
Fuel Pressure = 14 PSI
ECM: 1227747 with stock ASDU, other ECMS are available (8746, 6956, 8747)
Timing: around 2 BTDC with disconnected EST connector.
Lappy
Samsung Sans 820 - POS Korean laptop circa 1999-2000, P2 300MHz, 256M RAM, 30G drive
I/O: One RS232 and 2 USB,
OS: Win2K SP4
Software: TunerPRO RT 4.14
WinALDL 1.09F
Soft-Tools
Romulator is available, but with a different 7747 ECM (untested spare)
Zeitronix Wideband
ALDL cable
USB ALDL (GM OBD1) Cable with 12 pin Connector from aldlcable.com
Conversion work to be completed:
P/N switch wiring
TCC - brake wiring.
TV cable adjustment
Dress all wires in cab.

Problem
I did a quick data logging session on Tuesday. Just a simple start-up, idle, and one throttle up. TP-RT appears to work fine (see ZIP data log) while WinALDL sees raw data, but will not decode data stream (see ZIP data log). Also, in WinALDL the small byte window goes to 4 before it resets count number back to zero.
For TunerPro RT I use 1227747_42.ads stream definition file from Marks site (works fine) However I see constant BLMS and INT at 128! There are plenty of O2 crossovers, but also near constant O2 sensor reading (0.438)! I suspect a RAT. What I am doing wrong here?
I'll post zip files tonight..

//RF

Mc Firebird

Hi everyone. I am in the U.K. and sometimes struggle to find good info, so hope you can help.
I have a 91 Firebird 305 V8 with the th700r4 transmission.
A year or so back I imported a pocket programmer2 and a Romulator to start chip tuning. I tried it all out and manged to log via winaldl and I made a few changes to the VE map and timing. Just to see how it all hung together and worked. Once I had used the romulator to do a few tweaks - removing speed restrictor etc - I managed to burn a chip and all was happy and good, no problems, all went to plan.

I have since decided to start doing some more tuning and have already added a 3 inch exhaust / removed cat / added an open element air filter. I also have a set of 416 heads and a holley 670cfm 2inch bore throttle body with Holley intake all ready to bolt on, once i find a decent cam and springs they will be installed togethor.

The question I have is this, Should i make some baseline changes to the bin file before I start hunting for 128's. I have read how some tuners like to add VE2 into VE1 and others like to have all the timing in one table without the adders changing it. I also noted that PE set at 12.5:1 seems a popular choice. Knowing now what you wished you'd known back then, how would you constuct a good starter bin?

I would be prepared to make the suggested changes and post this bin for anyone else starting out. I also have one of those tbichips chips, it was for an otherwise stock car but with a lower thermostat that I can post if anyone requires it. Just trying to give something back.

BMmonteSS

Hello Scotland!!

If I had to do it all over again I wouldn't change a thing before I started datalogging. I would take good notes of every change and why I made it. Then it would be easier to see broad trends that might otherwise be missed if I had my head in the laptop jumping up and down on the + and - keys.

I find my self having the preverbal light bulb come on followed by vivid deja-vu. Meaning I keep learning the same things over and over again wasting my time because I didn't take notes.


RFmaster,

I'm not quite sure what's going on with winaldl, hopefully you know you have to check some additional boxes in the log box to get more than just raw data. Also does the sensor summary screen look correct?

As for the O2 senosr, how long did you let the enigne run? It takes mine 5-10 minutes of idleing to get it to light off. Some guys with long tubes can't get their sensors to light off untill they drive them down the road. IF this is the case then a heated O2 might help. Also you can get cross counts if the O2 is just hovering around the switching point like it does when it's too cold. Lets look at the log before we get too worried.

RFmaster

BMonteSS

Yes, I though that NBO was not lighting up, but so far no codes. It is a four wire unit and I had engine warmed up before taking data. See TP-RT datalog dump. Still worth double checking.

WinALDL is really strange - see dump file. The raw data screen did not look right at all. I will be checking my ALDL cable - it has built in 10kohm resistor. Next will be an ECM swap. It will be a fun Friday night - Saturday Morning. I will report my findings.

//RF

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Get rid of the 10K resistor. It changes how the ECMs runs and is not required for data logging (on the C3 TBI ECMs).

If the byte count block is less then 20 (WinALDL) then it isn't capturing the entire data packet.

RBob.

RFmaster

Bob

This was an operator error -> me. In winALDL I forgot to set Com port to 4800 (default is 2400) for 7747 ECM. Once I got com port setting in WinALDL start working properly - see data logs. I ALSO got Code 43 which is another story all together. If I recall there is a winALDL datalog file viewer - playback???. Anyone has a link to it??

///RF

RFmaster

Update

I had time over this weekend to look closely at my setup. Couple of things that did not make sense were resolved:
O2 Sensor was not traversing back and forth - this was due O2 sensor heater circuit not enabled - aka missing fuse. Once I installed the fuse (stupid, stupid) NBO2 started reporting true rich condition - which was confirmed by WO2.
I do not have P/N switch hookup yet - so I have not been able to take it for test drive. But it looks like stock ASDU is too rich. Also, as engine warmed up after 20 minutes or so at idle my fuel pressure dropped from 14 PSI down to about 11 PSI - I wonder why? (Outside Temp ~88 deg)

WinALDL files are attached for examination.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

possibly the gauge is getting heat soaked and no longer accurrate. liquid gauges more so than non liquid. I have never paid attention to the values after it is heated. Only to set base FP on cold engine.

sscamaro327

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES Thanks BMmonteSSS !!!! You Are The Man !!! This Thread Will Work !. I Love it . A Bunch Of Newbies ( All in the correct thread) And Were All Learning At The Same Pace.
Heres Some Of My Experiences So far, Maybe It Can Help Out My Fellow Classmates.
I Made My Own Datalogging Cable , Permanantly Installed It. And I Bought A Flash N Burn From Moates. Bought A Few Chips, And Marked Them With Stickies. The Stickies Also Help To Make Sure I Plug The Chip In The Correct Direction. Moates Flash N Burn Works Well (with the help of this thread ) the only problem i had for a bit was understanding the offset (which is explained above) . I Use The “746” ecm that has a $61 mask . and i have modified a few settings to "RoUgH TuNe" and make some data runs. Which I Use Winaldl To Log Those. I Make Several Runs (Under MY Normal Dirving Conditions) and then play around with the bin file a bit more. ANOTHER PROBLEM i do encounter , Sometimes After I Reflash The Chip, run outside and plug it in, i get the ERRATIC "you messed up " signals from the car. if i try to verify the integrity of the burn , on my flash n burn the saved file (after edited) and the burn file are not the same.
Unsure Of The Problem, I Just Keep Trying Till It Works.
I DId Raise My BPW right off the bat (before calculating ) because the engine was hunting (surging) . I Also Lowered The Base Idle / Idle With Ac. Like I Said , Rough Tune.
JUST FOR THE RECORD ! Dont Be Cheap, And Buy 1 Chip From Moates For 5 Bucks, And Keep In Mind That One CHip Is All You Will Need.
I Have Three, I Bought One To Tune On, 1 To Store An EMERGENCY Bin On, And A Spare, One So After I Get Thru Trashing Around My .Bin Files I Will Eventually Fine THe Correct Tune. And Thats The Final Chip........
Needless To Say, The Emergency Arose Faster Than I Thought, So I Have A Stock, Chip, <----everyday driver Stock Meaning The Best Bin SO Far..
A Modified Chip , The One I Play With, And The Emergency Chip Had An Emergency , And Serves No Purpose.. "THE POINT" Maybe THe One Chip You Decided TO Buy, Will Have An Emergency Too, And WONT Work Either.
There Only 5 Dollars, So Buy One To Play With, And One Just In Case.
Not Everything Has A Warrantee. Yes It Was D.O.A. But Thats Not Moates Fault.
Ok SO I Datalog My Runs, And I Can See Where The Tables Are Up And Down, All Over The Place, I Know I Need TO Edit The Tables.

But Then I Got Lost. But Thanks To This Thread We All Work Together. At The Same Speed (LMAO) Between 8mph -10 mph.........<a> href="http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?i...sc01956mg4.jpg" </a>

1Bad3rdGen

BMmonteSS. I finally got my ostrich and want to start with my tuning. Ill get some data loggs.. what i really want to due give it alittle bit more power maybe advance the timing fuel ect what not.. i been reading the DIY tuning forum and been reading about what each table does... engine is a 305 with a bore over ..60. has a full exhaust system with headmen headers.... a mild mini cam... open air intake... and a 5 speed... i just want that extra power with tuning since i read that the lo3 with just can improve performance.. im at school right now... ill get the some loggs up for you and all i want from you is your knowledge in tuning... im still confused on reading some of the tables and graphs.. but any input would be appreciated from anyone.. Thanks
Jj

91skybluez28

BM MONTE SS Im interested in the free tune , but Im a amature and I realy couldnt follow youre sticky post, please enlighten me on what I need to do 1st, also Im very low on cash. Thanks.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I would reread the "stickies" in DIY Prom. In fact I would print them and read in your spare time. Ask a specific question on what you read that day. Ask another. Ask another. Be specific.

I think the first step will be to obtain a ALDL cable. And an old laptop. If battery is suspect consider a 12V converter. I just saw one at batteries plus for like $30. My first laptop would run out of juice in 15 minutes.

BMmonteSS

This thread along with the stickies in the DIY tuning board are all you need to get started. If you get stuck just ask questions. Unfortunatly I don't have the time to do another tune step by step like we did with this thread. Keep in mind I never really "made" a chip for this fella, he did it on his own.

xjcamaro89

He did help me alot, and im still following this thread on a regular basis, I know it all sounds like mush when you read it, but once you get the equipment, and programs and start looking at everything it starts coming together. So ill even make a list of the stuff I bought for tuning mine. This is just the basic stuff, there is more equipment out there for really getting your numbers down to a point, but just to get the car running right and the way you want it, this stuff will work great!

This is the memory adapter that you will have to soldier to you computer board: $30 http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=36

This is the quick chip connector that will mount to the above adapter and alow you to quickly attach and detach a chip to your computer: $10 http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?products_id=44

This is the USB burner that will connected to your computer and used to burn and erase chips: $80 http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?products_id=48

This is the chip that you will need to burn the new program to, i bought 2 and when i got a setup that i new i was happy with i marked it and used the second one to play with and if it didnt work i would just pop the good one in. $5 each: http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?products_id=39

And here is the cable you will need to plug from your cars data port to your laptop. From Ebay: $69.95 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-AL...spagenameZWD1V

This is all the exact stuff that i have, and it worked. The website you might want to spend some time on is www.moates.net They have all sorts of stuff for doing the tuning. The software that you will need is also available from that website. So the stuff you need is above, and this is probably the cheapest way to go and still get quality. Check it out and keep reading back toward the beggining of this thread. Good Luck , let us know!

91skybluez28

Thank

91skybluez28

Thank you very much guys, that last break down really helped me out . I actualy have a pretty new H.P. laptop . Also with this basic tuning what sort of gains are we talking about? If any body wants to answer if not I'll just read this thread.

xjcamaro89

What exactly have you done to your car, what engine do you have? Tranny? If your car is running fine, and your havent done a whole lot of mods (significant mods) your gains might be very minimal, when you have significant mods, or engine changes, that is when you will really see and feel a difference with a tune.

littlepiston

cool

ladytrae

This is my first attempt at data logging and was wondering if someone could take a look at mine.

91skybluez28

No disrespect to nobody but this route of moding seems like a lot of trouble . Why not just take it to a pro and pay him to tune youre car? Is it that much more expensive? Sorry , maybe its not that hard and I dont have any mechanical skills.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I consider it a hobby. My car is not a daily driver but it could be. There is a learning curve that you are correct. Took me a season of tuning Year One of mods to get it OK. Many take their cars to a Pro to have tuned. Nothing wrong with that. Most of those cars are not OBD1. They are newer Vettes and Stangs and owners have deep pockets. Also not sure if the pro tuners want to deal with our "generation " of vehicle. There are a couple mail order tuners out their(Brian, Wright) that can get you a "ballpark" tune cheap. But that is not good enough for me. I need it done right. that takes time and hours of datalogging and note taking. Are you willing to pay a Pro the big bucks?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Even the "PROs" won't get it RIGHT.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Fast. Can you offer any insight on the ease of tuning a MAF system vs SD? Something tells me the MAF is more forgiving(?) or easier to tune hands on for beginner or mail order by a supposed Pro. As you and I are aware TBI is SD which does not offer the MAF sensor that monitors the incoming air and subsequent fueling as a function of same. That would seem to make the MAF system easier to get the tune right. I think there is an aftermarket system(MassAirFlow?) being advertised in some of the magazines that tout the ease of their system to tune.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I posed a few questions to the rep of the company that you are talking about over on Chevytalk.org about a year ago, when I was playing with MAF TBI. He made some official looking hand-wave and stopped replying, something to the effect of that is how it is. I was asking about AE/DE and the like, how he was able to claim that it would run "PERFECTLY" out of the box with NO additional chip work.

MAF is MORE forgiving than speed density since it measures airflow, but still far from perfect.

EDIT- Did some research and this was the exact answer that we got. The late "Grumpy", Doug F (Holley Engineer), and myself.

Their MAF system is no different than any other MAF setup.

It probably runs OK, but not nearly to its full potential.

xjcamaro89

Im back, and you know its spring when these boards start to light up! Here is a question for you guys and you might have remembered that i asked this last year, well i never got it figured out, and never really had time to play with it to tell you the truth.

So here it is. Remember i had a 350 TBI 5 spd that i tuned really close already. When the engine is dead cold, or cooler it starts fine and idles fine, but when i take it down the road once i get about half way up through the RPMs in each gear it feels like it just hit a brick wall with power. Now if i take the acceleration up fairly slow its not as bad, but i can really tell when accelerating normally. So what i do is just shift by sound, which i do anyway, and shift before i hit that power wall.

Now once the car warms up, the problem above goes away. But now when i mash the gas i get a bog and pop, depending if im just sitting still reving it or moving, bog when moving, pop through the air cleaner when just sitting and reving.

These things arent a big deal but i would like to work on them since i have time this spring that i didnt have last. I beleive something needs changed in one of the tables that has to do with engine temp. Im not sure cause i havent looked at the program in over a year. My car is still in storage and probably not getting out for another two weeks or so. But i want to get a jump start on it.

My question now is can i data log and post it for you guys to take a look at, and can you guys be able to see the problem im having in the datalog. Also since this only happens when the engine is cold for the first problem, and reving for the second, how do you guys want me to data log to see the problem. Thanks again guys!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

For the bog/pop with a warm engine it is a lack of AE. Just need more thats all.

The power wall while in warm up mode could be a number of things. One thing that will cause it is that the coolant compensation SA table has a low area in it. This area is at mid-range coolant temperatures and medium to light load.

The purpose of this low SA area is to dump heat into the engine and cat-con. Lights off the cat and brings the engine temperature up more quickly.

The down side is lost power until the engine temperature gets past this area. This may or may not be the power wall you are feeling with the engine.

RBob.

xjcamaro89

Ok, thanks what are some of those specific tables or charts called your talking about, i might be able to get some screen shots of mine that im running in the car right now and post them and let you guys look at them and see if maybe they are a little low, let me know thanks!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

There are a handful of AE parameters. However, it sounds like the bog/pop only happens with the engine warmed up. If so then change the AE vs CTS compensation table. Add AE in the warmed up temperature range.

The SA vs CTS compensation table:

RBob.

xjcamaro89

Sorry im having trouble finding the tables your talking about, im going to attach my bin file. If you could look at it and maybe post some screen shots of the tables, and then show me what your talking about, thanks!

Saved my bin file as a txt file. i think thats how we did it before, if not let me know what i need to do to get it to you, thanks!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I'll post the tables from your BIN. However, I don't think that it wil help much.

They are the raw values in decimal as found in the BIN.

Check to see if the ECU/XDF/TDF file you are using has these tables in it. If not you can add them to make it easier to modify them.

RBob.