91RockS

I'd suggest getting the VE tables just a little closer, then start working on SA, then you'll need to go back and tweak VE's again since SA will affect your blm's a bit. Before tuning SA, I'd also recommend trying to get your WOT AFR betwen 12.0:1 - 12.5:1. When you start the SA tuning, set the PE TPS threshold back to normal. Creep up on timing a few degrees at a time, datalog, listen for knock and look at the knock table. You'll tend to see knock at the higher map loads, so try to find some steep hills to climb (while datalogging) and get in and out of the throttle a lot. Pull timing out (a few degress at a time) in areas where you start seeing lots of knock counts (don't worry about cells with just a few counts), but make sure to smooth the map out around that point so you don't have any abrupt transitions. If you use Tunerpro, look at the main SA graph. You can literlly drag the SA map points up/down and visually smooth things out and it will automatically change the table values for you based on what did to the graph (it's a really cool feature of TP that some don't know exists). For performance, you want to tune to a a few degrees less than where knock starts to occur. Don't push it to the ragged edge at high speed and loads, it's not worth the risk of tearing your motor up (even though your KS should kick in and save the day). For part throttle/cruise, you ideally want to tune SA to yield the lowest TPS for a given speed and load to maximize mpg.

If you haven't done so already, do some searching on SA to gain some knowledge. The main spark table is where you do most of your SA tuning, but there are bunch of other constants and adder tables that come into play. As BMmonte has discussed in this thread, 28* total advance at WOT seems to be the happy place for these engines. I'd stongly suggest patching your bin to log total spark advance. That way you can see where (load and speed) knock occurs and how much timing is getting pulled out.

Most of the DIY tuners seem to use a 180* stat. I wouldn't recommend running anything cooler than 170*.

1Bad3rdGen

Ok Monte i removed the 10k resistor and re datalogged my camaro heres some attachments.
Thanks Martin

1Bad3rdGen

heres th o2 and knock

DrivinVA305

iTrader: (1)

Thanks 91RockS, that's some great info and it's nice to have a method to try to tune my SA instead of just flying by the seat of my pants. I guess that I'm going to have to start reading up on patches because I'm pretty much clueless in that department.

Could you elaborate more on this, or point me towards a thread that could help me understand how to go about doing this?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

keep in mind tuning for economy and performance are greatly different. with a steady throttle. no change in tps. vary spark and it varies speed. need to use same level road. hopefully not to much advanced or the KC will pull timing.

same can be said of 1/4 mile WOT with MPH not ET. need to run same distance same RPMs. same launch. maybe no wheel spin. GTEch would work.

BMmonteSS

I've been off laying pipe....quit laghing you perverts, I've seriously been laying 3 miles of 16" gas line for the last few days and will be doing so off and on most of the summer so I'll be in and out. I'm very, VERY glad to see some of the others picking up and helping out, this is exactly what I wanted this thread to turn into.

91rocks, thanks for that timing tutorial it makes so much more sense than my earlier ramblings. This is the correct way to tune your timing curves if you have no idea what works best with a particular combo. I suggest doing this with a stock camber curve and an unknown combo, if your using a stock LO3 you can setup up your curve like I did XJ's and then work from there.

91RockS

That comment is geared towards maximizing fuel economy. With fuel prices just north of $3.00/gallon, I like using a tuning strategy that gives best fuel mileage at part throttle/cruise, but maximizes perfomance at WOT. With EFI, this is possible.

Here is how I tune part throttle for maximum mpg (assuming VE's are already dialed in to 128 +/- 3). What I call "part throttle/criuse" is in the 1500-2500 rmp range at MAP loads of 30-60 kPa, TPS below PE threshold. To experiment with what timing gives best mileage, burn a couple of chips that have incrementally increased timing advance in the cruise area of the main spark table. Start with the lowest timing advance bin. Find a nice long, flat road to datalog. Get up to speed in top gear and set your cruise control at say 60 mph (if you don't have cruise control, lay off the coffee and keep a steady foot!). Datalog for a while to determine the your average throttle position (TPS). Do the same for each bin being careful to set the cruise at the exact same speed, noting the average TPS. You want all the driving conditions to be exactly the same for each bin you try, the only thing different should be the spark map. Theoretically, the bin that yields the lowest TPS should give you the best mileage, since it's feeding the engine with the least amount of air and fuel for a given road load. In other words, your trying to find the highest efficiency point, which is the least amount of fuel in to generate a fixed amount of power out. This is really easy to do with a Prominator, where you can load up 8 different bins and just toggle between them on the fly with a rotary switch.

Regarding patches, look back in this thread on one of the earlier pages. BMmonte posted detailed instructions on how to patch pulsewith into the datastream. Its very easy to modify the bin to do this, just change a few values in the hex editor tables. 3rd grader stuff. You just need to know what address to go to and what to change the values to. One you have it in the datastream, you need to do a little simple math on the values to calculate actual pulsewith , from which you can calculate injector duty cycle (export the datalog to an Excel spreadsheet and do a little multiplication). Same procedure for patching in total spark advacne. You can also disable the forced knock test with a simple patch. I have a word file with notes on how to do this. Maybe I'll clean it up and post it.

BMmonte - glad to see you're not pissed that I posted into your thread. I figured that you must have gotten busy. Thanks for clarifying what you meant by "laying pipe" . . . . thought it might have somehting to do with the female clientele at the wife's studio!

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Great SA tuning info - THANKS!!!

1Bad3rdGen

Is there anyone that can veiw my logs and tell me what i can do to improve my tuning.
Martin

BMmonteSS

Hey Martin, sorry for the delay. It looks like to me your fueling is pretty darn close. So gather up all the timing info posted here recently and start playing there. There are some decent gains to be had getting the timing in the ball park. You'll probably have to revisit your VE tables after you get your timing in the ball park.

DrivinVA305

iTrader: (1)

I haven't had much time for tuning latley, the plumbing contractor I work has had me going non-stop for the past week. I got in touch with 91RockRS and he sent me the bin that he had been working on. It seems to be a much better starting point than the previous file I was working on, so I ditched my old bin and started over again with his file. He has the PW patched into the PROM ID field and the total SA is patched into the IAC steps field. He has also made some changes to the AE tables. One thing to note about his bin is that he is running 3* mechanical advance without changing the inital timing in the bin. Starting from his bin with 3* added to the main SA table I got BLM's between 125-130 and then starting changing the main SA table. I haven't had a chance to start working on my VE tables with the new SA table so they are a little off, and I think I need to pull some timing from the higher MAP cells. The attached logs are from VA[1]

I'd also like to say thank you 91RockRS for the bin.

DrivinVA305

iTrader: (1)

Here are the rest

xjcamaro89

Hey, guys, i havent left. We have had some pretty crappy weather here the last 2-3 weeks in western pennsylvania. I havent had the car out but once last week and I was in a hurry so I didnt grab my laptop and cables. And Ive been pretty busy building a new deck on the house and work is getting into the usual busy summertime season. I do have to say that the last changes I made back a month or so ago with the timing advance of about 14-15 degrees, and then setting the BLMs correctly, my car has ran the best that is has ever ran for as long as i have owned the car (7 years) Im still going to get you guys a WOT log sometime and keeps tinkering with the chip a little. Thanks again, and glad to see others getting on board and figuring out that the chip burning experience is the way to go. Good Job!

Downzero

If anyone could tell me where to get started with this motor, I'd very much appreciate it. I've already ordered an injector spacer and adjustable fuel pressure regulator, but nothing else.

TBI:
1987 GM TBI from a truck, 1227747 ECM, 61 lb/hr injectors

Engine:
383 stroker, 9.52:1 (Keith black 18cc pistons and 64 cc heads)
Dart iron eagle heads, 180 cc intake runners
Comp Xtreme Fuel Injection cam, 12-365-4, 216/223 @ .050", 113 LSA

I'm not sure where to even begin. This engine should make 335 HP which my calculations say will require a 100 lb/hr pair of injectors. I'm getting pretty nervous as my engine is coming back from the machine shop very soon and I need a baseline to fire it off.

I don't own a programmer yet but I will buy whatever it takes to get this thing to run. I know how to tune carburated motors but this EFI is new to me.

I'd much appreciate the help of the board.

BMmonteSS

If you start reading at the begining of this thread what you need is all laid out for you. As for a baseline to get started, as long as your BPC is matched to your injectors it will probably start up and idle well enough to break in the cam.

Downzero

I read all that. I've created another thread to keep from hijacking this one. I'm eager to get started.

Blazin4x4

What is bpc?

I have a 355 that will be making the same power... specs are 10:1 compression, camel humpers, l-79 cam, holley 670cfm tbi with 80 pph injectors, 2 inch holley projection manifold, holley fuel pump, 3 inch single and k and n with a 7747 ecm. I have the pro version of the prominator. The thing doesn't want to even run... it'll fire up at about half throttle but it's running as about 1200 rpm at half throttle... I know this is probably too rich but I don't know what to modify in the .bin to get it to idle long enough to break in my cam and log data.

I just need to get it to run long enough to tune it. I've had it idleling but never for more than 2 min by itself ...

I'm using the amur .bin... should I try a different .bin?

Downzero

BPW is base pulse width constant.

Blazin4x4

There is no base pulse width constant in that .bin... do I need a different .bin?

I was hopin I could get a .bin to start from somebody with a similar setup... the stock .bins just don't run and I don't know what to do to fix it. It is running WAY too rich... what would the first move be to fix that?

I'm lost.

Downzero

Step one in leaning it out is going to be reducing your BPW constant....which on a stock 350 .bin is 135. You'll have to do some math to figure out where you're at currently with your fuel pressure/injector combination, and there is a calcuator for that somewhere on this website.

Every .bin has to have a way to adjust BPW. It's the most important parameter in the code.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

this is a handy BPW calculator:

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/ben_...ctorsizing.xls

Blazin4x4

very cool thanks

boredomkills

I hate to ask this as it is all explained in the begining of this post but i can get laptop and i need to know exactly what i shoud be gettting to be able to tune my car. I know this is already been gone over but i need to know what would be the easiest and also cheapest way to get burnign my own chips( but i will spend some extra money if it makes it easier to get my car tuned right). thanks in advance. Chips and tuners are the problems because of all the options. I have a 1992 rs with a lo5 with edelbrock intake and headers open element and a 3inch spintech exhaust.

boredomkills

actaully i ve been reading and reading and then i read alittle bit more i think i can figure it all my self its not as bad as i once thought it would be. i need a chip a burner aldl calbe and the programs for burning and datalogging. Anything else? and i think with the chip i want i need a socket g2 ? I am just going to get everythign from moates.net if possible.

Downzero

Get RBob's EBL from DynamicEFI, then get you a burner. That's what I did, it worked very well.

BMmonteSS

The monte will once again move under its own power. Life has been busy and not friendly to the gear head hobby lately, my car has sat since I got married last October (spun a rod the day before my wedding). I’ve been building a house, starting my wife’s photography business and raising a puppy. So money and time are scarce, and it’s driving me insane. I’ve occupied my self with auto-xing the Subaru……which sucks.

A co-worker offered me an older motor from a past project that has a forged crank, 4-bolt mains, “good heads”, and a tiny performer cam (204*/214*) in it for the unbelievably low price of 50$ and a promise to help him tune his TPI motor he just got for another one of his truck projects. Depending on what heads are on it I expect it to get me into the mid to low 14’s with my performer RPM intake and exhaust system. This should keep me occupied and auto-xing (with a right wheel drive) for a while until I either build a monster Gen 1 motor or go strait to the Gen III LS1. I’m going to be documenting my tuning adventures here in this thread to give yet another data point. I’ll try to post all my bin files along the way for your learning pleasure. I’ll probably tune this on my old 747 ecm, before I make the switch to the EBL setup. It’ll be interesting to see what kind of gains can be made with the new software.

Engine Specs:

Stock long block 350
Compression: ????
Heads: ????
Cam: 204/214
Intake: Performer RPM w/adapter plate
TB: 454 TB w/70 lb injectors
ECM: 747, pocket programmer, tunerpro, zeitronix WB
Exhaust: 1 5/8” Shorty headers, 2.5” dual exhaust with x-pipe and dumps at the axle

Drivetrain:

Trans: 700-r4, shift kit, 2000 stall
Rear: 9” ford 3.50 gears, trac loc
Chassis: G-body, roll bar, 3750 w/driver

evilminds

Hey ok i've read the whole thread from begining to end, twice!.
alot of good points and pointers here
I posted what i was doing on another thread but i figured i'd post here too so if anything what i'm doing would be a lesson in what not to do lol

ECM: 1228746 ANTT
Car: 1991 Camaro RS TBI 305
Heads: Stock
Cam: was a stock roller cam\roller lifters( changed to summit SUM-K1106\flat tappet lifters)and 7.8" push rods.

Problems thus far: Idle and sudden surges in RPM( pretty much under control now tho)

Things done thus far to ECM code: mainly VE and Base timing and dist. timing
both set to 5 BTDC.

I can only log from the garage at the moment(no laptop )
which is fine since i need to get the idle under control for now anyway.

the files attached are from this evening, i forgot to turn logging on from this session, so i'll attach the data log from the previous session which should be fairly close, i'll post another log session tomorrow after i've corrected a few things from this last session.

would anyone like to take a look and let me know what they think so far?

Edit: one other thing i forgot to mention in all my last post which i could use some help on before i go any further..the AIC connector on this car was wired by the previous owner, judging by looks because the connector was broken..i put the wires back where i thought they went, but i'm not sure if it's right or not..could someone give me the correct terminal to coloring on the wires?? thanks.

BMmonteSS

Now you’re giving us something to work with. In your BLM log your BLM’s under wide avg. (the one you want to use) look to be in the ball park, the problem is that I wouldn’t believe them. You have so much overlap with that cam you could be letting a good bit of fresh air out the exhaust. Also that cam isn’t going to want to idle at a stock 14.7 to 1. I assume you don’t have a WB so you are going to have to tune your idle by ear and smell. Keep in mind that too lean has a smell as well, kinda acrid. You need to take off the 10K resistor on your ALDL cable. Your ecm doesn’t need it and it will do some funky things to your ECM that you don’t want while you’re tuning.

In the log you posted I can’t really see much, you never enter closed loop seeing that your BLM’s never come off of 128. This log was probably before the engine warmed up enough to go closed loop. Your idle looks to be jumping around a good bit, which is to be expected. You’ll also notice that your MAP sensor is bouncing around the 80-90 map range. Stock LO3’s idle in the 30-40 map range…..so you could imagine that your VE tables are probably off just a WEEE bit.


First things first, get the 10K resistor off your cable and do another log with the engine completely warmed up. If you want to start working on something, try flattening your VE and timing tables in the area that you idle in this will help to stabilize your fueling and timing so you can see what is really going on instead of watching the ECM chase it’s tail trying to keep up with that cam. You also need to verify that your IAC is working properly, there are serveral post about wiring the IAC, search is your friend.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You need to open up you minimum idle air screw due to the lower vacuum. Your IAC is at 150 counts! I like 5-10 on a fully warmed up engine that is in Park/Neutral without the A/C on.

I have tuned an engine with nearly this exact same cam. They like ALOT of timing real soon on the bottem end, but no more than 28-30* advance @ WOT and all in by 2,600-3,000 rpm. Vacuum advance+Initial+Centrifical will add up to be around 50* @ Part throttle. You will have No less than 18* BTDC in any cell.

BM- Keep in mind that this cam has alot of duration, but the LSA is very high. I know on my 115 LSA with 224/224 I had no problem running in closed loop, even at idle.

BMmonteSS

Yeah, maybe. It might run ok in closed loop, but I think even a stock engine runs a little better slightly richer than stoic as indicated by the NB O2.

I don't think his IAC was compensating yet since it wasn't moving around, I believe most tunes have the IAC set point some where near 150 counts when first started.

evilminds

well i did another log, after changing a few things around abit, after the engine gets to around the 200 degree range RPM really climbs up there and refuses to come back down,,on this session i didn't let it get quit that far tho..it was idling at around 1000 RPM and the flags screen said it was in closed loop and in BLM ..close to the end of the log i tried to give it a little gas to get it to 1200 RPM, of course it choked abit, so i let off and it stayed about 1200 RPM lol so i thought hmm lets put it in drive and see what happens..it dropped to about 800 RPM tried to come up in RPM and then quit running...but the log should show all this i hope.

Thanks, fella's for trying to help me out on this....i've looked all over this forum and can't find any information on the correct wiring for the IAC valve..actually all i really need to know is where the A B C D terminals are on the actual IAC valve from that i can get the wires to where they need to go.

One other thing , is this correct? https://www.thirdgen.org/tpimod2 i was told to never start or try to start the engine with the A and B terminals shorted.

logs and files attached, again thanks
Rick

evilminds

hey BM , you were right about the IAC ...i couldn't find any info on the forum because i was typing AIC in the search field hehe anyway....i got as far as waiting the 30 sec or so for the valve to close when i looked and it was going in the other direction(opening) so i reversed the wires to there next possible pin out and now it closes....
this could explain why after 6 times adjusting the VE the AFR would still stay RICH..and with the valve open all the way constantly i was able to finally get it stabilized..of course that would mean that now that it's wired correctly, i have to start all over again
So i guess i can ditch the previous sessions.

BMmonteSS

It’s always the little things that come up to bite you. Your ecm also adds fuel as it opens the IAC, so if it thought that your IAC was open to 160 steps and really it was closed, you would have some problems. That last log, even though the IAC was messed up still didn’t have the O2 sensor warmed up enough to go into closed loop. You’ll notice that the BLM’s are locked at 128 and your O2 sensor starts out at .450 volts and slowly moves towards .900 or so. When you get your O2 sensor warmed up the readings will be all over the place and you’ll rarely get the same reading twice on your data log. What is happening here is that the stock NB O2 sensor is only good for 14.7 to 1 AFR, it will “switch” or swing across .450 volts when it is at 14.7 to 1 AFR. Richer than this and it goes some where above this number, leaner below. The NB or “narrow band” O2 sensor can NOT accurately read any other AFR other than 14.7. What your ecm does is it constantly runs just a wee bit richer and then leaner than 14.7 and gets the O2 sensor swinging across .450 volts and then counts the number of times it crosses this threshold and how long it stays on either side. This is how it calculates your BLM values.

I just realized that you’re only about 2 hours away from me, must be nice living that close to the drag strip . Get that thing running well enough and we might have to meet in Flatwoods or something.

evilminds

where's the best place to purchase a WB sensor, or better still the cheapest place to get a WB? and how much trouble is it to wire it on . i assume it has to have 12 volts for the heater so that could be wired to the fuse box..but how many other wires doesit have?

Thanks,
Rick

DM91RS

Wide Band Air Fuel Ratio Meter

Several of us are using this and it works well.

BMmonteSS

Yep thats the good stuff, it has hookups to log several sensors independently so you can tune your WOT and pump shot stuff using it's super fast logging hardware/software and the stock ecm stuff for the slow stuff like getting your Avg. blm's and stuff like that. As long as you have a laptop (which you should) you won't need the LCD dispaly.

xjcamaro89

Hey guys, im back. Finally got some time to fiddle with the car again. I havent abandoned you guys, ive been following the progress of this forum and i think it is helping alot of people out. Well anyway, i upped my SA to 28* , per the SA table BMmonte posted quite a while ago. I then pulled a couple runs and reset my fuel tables, its still running great and im getting like 14-15 miles to the gallon in it, which I thought was pretty amazing. Talk to you guys later!

sjaak84

yes your right, i am a newbe here and i read this tread and playing whit tunerpro rt to learn how everything works I have a 84 crossfire 383 and when he is back off the paint shop, i get starting tunig as well I have the 1227747 ecm whit a onboard prominater from Ken73 and for now i only reading and reading to understand the tuning

brgds.Sjaak Verlaan (Netherlands)

Blazin4x4

So the IAC controls the amount of air goin in at idle... say mine is 100 and it runs really rich and won't even idle without throttle. Do I need a lower or higher number on the iac?

Blazin4x4

What would step 2 be? Only thing I could think of is ve tables... I took all the timing out so I can get my idle tuned but the thing is running so rich it caught my air filter gasket on fire after it got soaked over and over...

Also my injectors seem to "****" fuel after killing it... like a stream. I hear a gurgling noise about 30 seconds after shutting it off then both injectors just dump fuel... I have a hunch it may be doing this on startup and while its running... This is RAW fuel too. would reversing my fuel pump wires do this or reversing some injector wires when wiring up the holley stuff.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Sounds like you probably need more air, which would be a higher number. Only thing is, you shouldn't be that high. Sounds like the VE table is way to rich at idle to me..... (or short on spark)

Blazin4x4

what do you mean by short on spark? Also when making changes to the ve tables what is the best way to do it? I was told to take all the advance out and then start adding fuel and timing for higher then idle rpm. Is it better to make big changes and see if it changes the idle or just do one value at a time in small increments?

BronYrAur

iTrader: (1)

Your injectors are leaking, it will NEVER run right if they just leak like that, how could you possibly have any control over their output? You need to get a TBI rebuild kit with new gaskets and the new o-rings for your injectors. It's good to do anyways.

vernw

iTrader: (2)

Short on spark = need more spark = raise the spark table

Blazin4x4

This is a brand new holley unit that has done this out of the box... I even spent 150 bucks on new injectors and it still does it. Could that happen when wiring the holley injectors? Maybe reversed some wires so it opens when it needs to close?

smartman__007

iTrader: (1)

You probably put the O-rings in wrong. Make sure they set in the lip on the actually throttle body not the injector. Brother did this wrong and locked his motor up from all of the fuel it dumped

Blazin4x4

I didn't put any o rings on anything... didn't know I needed to. Looked like holley already took the liberty of putting them on the injectors... why would it make a difference? I'm just curious and it very well may be the problem

smartman__007

iTrader: (1)

Take a look at this diagram. It's not exactly like your holley unit but very similar. The injector's only function is to open and close to let fuel out into the intake. The fuel pressure needs to be contained within a certain area so that the fuel travels through only the injector and not around it. It dumps fuel because it is relieving pressure within the system via the leaky gasket or lack of one. Model 220 TBI Unit Technical Reference Diagram

Sorry to take the direction of this thread away BMmonteSS. You are an awesome TGO'er for setting this tutorial type thread up. Keep doing what you're doing.

Blazin4x4

I know that but I misunderstood what you said originally. I thought you meant put the o ring in the tbi instead of on the injector which didn't make sense to me because once you put the injector in it's pod it shouldn't make a difference. But I most likely didn't get my injectors in right.

smartman__007

iTrader: (1)

Oh yeah thats how i made sure the o ring was seated correctly. Oddly when i looked at the injector itself there was a lip that looked like it held the O ring but when we used that lip the injector leaked terribly. Good luck with that bro. I hope you get that leaky TBI under wraps, and I also hope i didnt confuse you more by chiming in. Its tough to explain with words.