I've been reading some of the stuff on here, and all I can say is that Bench Racing is an old past time. I'm more interested in hearing from the people that are actually running T.B.I. on their motors. Here's a couple questions to get the ball rolling.

1. What components (T.B.I. unit, cam, heads, ect.) are you using in your
application?
2. What problems did you encounter and how did you overcome them?
3. What's your best E.T. to date?
4. How's your driveability (Awesome/Pretty Good/Good/Not So Good/Sucks)?
5. How difficult was it to get your tune for your application?

These are questions that will lead to important answers. They are also based on fact not theory. Bench racing is fun, but at the end of the day, hard numbers are what count the most. I owned a T.B.I. camaro, but I ditched the F.I. for a carb. The reason for starting this thread is my curiosity. F.I. has the best street manners and fuel economy, but a carb is so much easier to set up in my opinion. I might be wrong, I'm open to that, but there seems to be enough interest in T.B.I.'s to warrant a thread like this one. Maybe it's been done before, but technology has made some advances since 2004, which is the date on most of these articles. I guess in the end, I want an answer to my question. Have we really been keeping up with the advances as well as we should have. So, fire away and let's see if there's an answer to go along with my question.

 

1) Stock TBI unit, stock injectors at 22psi, Stock bottom end. Weiand 7525 intake manifold, Ultradyne Cam (206/216 .447 .447 112), Lightly ported 416 heads. T5, Alum Driveshaft, eaton posi, 3.42 gears.

2) Problems, tuning was the most work, getting it running well, and fueling at WOT was the tricky part. I really didn't have any mechanical issues to speak of, other than some fitment issues with the nitrous system and the TBI adaptor, but that was very minor.

3) with a 130 shot of nitrous (on stock heads), I went 13.3@105 with a 2.2 60'. With the stock heads N/A I went 14.2 @ 96 with a 2.3 60'. I have not yet ran with the new heads. Dynoed 204rwhp/265rwtq with the stock heads. Dynoed 224rwhp/260rwtq, with the new heads. For perspective, with the nitrous on, I dyno'ed 298rwhp with the stock heads. I expect around 315rwhp with the new heads, and the nitrous.

4) Very Good / Awsome. But that takes a TON of work. I don't want to think about how many hours I have into it, working on the pump shot, and fine tuning with the WBO2 unit, to get it this good.

5) I wouldn't say "hard" but it was time consuming. There is nothing really difficult about it, but it does take time and patients. You have to be willing to spend the time, to make a lots of really small changes, and document how those changes effect the engine. If you just go at it ***** nilly, you are in trouble. You need a systematic approch, and the right tools.

I will also add. Now that I have done, and if I was doing it again. I would go 1 more step up in the cam, and get something like a 210/218 or 212/224 range came, and something with lift in the .500 range, that has more aggresive lobe profiles. As well as I think my cam has done, I could have run a bit more cam, and snuck a bit more power out of this motor, and still been very drivable, and still tunable.

I will add a picture to.

Green = Stock LO3.
Red = Stock heads, UltraDyne Cam.
Blue = 416 Heads, UltraDyne Cam.

 

Sounds like a nice set up Dewey. I think your cam choice of 210/218 was good, but I'd say the 210/220 from Comp would be an equally good choice with its 112 lobe seperation and 109 intake centerline. I just threw that last cam in there because I didn't know if you knew about it. Your response was very informative and your approach to building the motor sounded pretty systematic. I'd say it paid off. If everybody's responses are this good, I'd say this will be one of the best threads yet for newbies looking to build a T.B.I. combo.

 

Well, my Sig says what I'm running.

My biggest mechanical problem while building the motor was that after a week of assembling and running it, it started pulling the rocker studs. So, get screw-ins!

Haven't gone to the track yet, hopefully soon.

Driveability is good except for recently it hiccups occassionally, I'm thinking possibly my fuel pump is starting to give way. But I've done a decent amount of tuning with the new EBL setup, and honestly haven't done a lot of the little driveability tweaks like AE stuff too much and it still drives great.

I worked out my part throttle and idle tune pretty quick, probably had it driving around town in a week or two. Then I got the EBL and got it back to running good around town again in about a week. WOT is the tough part now, because I dont have a wideband, but I'm getting there, it feels pretty strong now and pulls pretty hard up to about 6k RPM which I haven't taken it past.

 

Bron has another decent set up. Using the ZZ4 cam was a pretty sweet idea. Keep it coming!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iroczracer07
1. What components (T.B.I. unit, cam, heads, ect.) are you using in your
application?
2. What problems did you encounter and how did you overcome them?
3. What's your best E.T. to date?
4. How's your driveability (Awesome/Pretty Good/Good/Not So Good/Sucks)?
5. How difficult was it to get your tune for your application?

1. BBC TBI w/ 90 pph injectors. VAFPR, 26 psi FP. vortec 330/350 motor, 9.75 comp, Comp XFI cam , GMPP intake, NOS cheater kit, ( rest in the sig)
2. tuning for AE, and the big injectors and FP. With the SB TB it ran real good will very little tuning. I now use RBob's EBL and the vehicle runs wonderful! (only ran ok with the stock 7747) A looser converter help solve alot of my AE issues with the big cam. The EBL allowed me to control the n20, electric fan, lean cruise. Things I had other controllers for.
3. I'll let you know in a few weeks. But with datalogging I can go from a stop to 100 MPH in 12 - 13 seconds or so. (traction limiting)
4. Awsome now (a few cold running issues but not important to me). Don't get me wrong, A steep learning curve for me. But WELL worth it now.
5. For a guy who never programed, or tuned a chip, not too difficult, steep learning curve yes, but that is because I used a hot motor to start learning. i also had no idea what all the table were for. I stayed glue to this and other sites for a week just to get the car running.

 

1. What components (T.B.I. unit, cam, heads, ect.) are you using in your
application?
2. What problems did you encounter and how did you overcome them?
3. What's your best E.T. to date?
4. How's your driveability (Awesome/Pretty Good/Good/Not So Good/Sucks)?
5. How difficult was it to get your tune for your application?


1)Holley tbi unit, Whipple supercharger, Edelbrock alluminum heads, 1.6 roller rockers. 9 bolt rear 3:91 gears 700r4 trans.
2)To many problems v6 to v8 to k1500 series truck superchargers to tunning
3)best 12.2 at 80 mph with 1.5 60 foot (need to get different gears and different tranny)
4)runs like a stock car no blower whine and instant power.
5)Tunning is getting better now that i have a pro version of the prominator comming and all the nice write-ups up top. However i suspect i will have the most problems dealing with the fueling aspect of this as i have to deal both with pressure during boost and also without it. As this is what i had problems with before.

 

Two more awesome set ups. Hopefully everyone else who reads this thread will come to the same conclusion I have. T.B.I. cars can get it done at the strip too. My hats off to everyone who has replied so far.

 

ultimate TBI'd stock tbi (350), AFPR@15psi, summit 1102 cam (204/214@.050, 112 LSA, 107 ICA), stock 350 roller short block, 187 heads (UGH!!), flowtech afterburner headers, MSD wires, magnaflow cat, 3"- dual 2 1/2" flowmaster super 40 cat back.

before the cam, I had zero power above 3500, cam fixed most of it (timing chain was horrifically loose), I think my coil is the cause of the rest of it. truck was basically a basket case that I bought for a song.. it had many.. quirks.


I haven't had a chance to run the 1/4 yet.. tough when the wife works nights.

it's much better then it used to be, truck's still a bit cranky when cold.


I haven't tuned it yet.. next spare $230 is going to buy me an EBL.

since my TBI is in my 3/4 ton truck, my goals are a bit different than someone with a TBI Camaro.. all out speed is secondary to towing performance. since I've starting wrenching on it, it's gone from a slug that couldn't even get out it's own way, to a decent towing performer with serious traction issues when empty.

 

1. Stock TBI - Ultimate Mods, Bored 50mm, Spacers, Poly-blades, GM 65lb/hr injectors, AFPR@24 psi, 350ci, 64cc Vortec Heads, GM Lift:435/460 Duration: 212/222@.050, 9.5:1 Compression

2. Tuning idle with 20+ psi fuel pressure made surging hard to control, it creating a rich/lean alternating condition that leads to excess fuel consumption while idling. Adjusted the timing as well as the programming, idles much better.

3. Haven't had it to the track or dyno. Through simple trial and error we found that the more timing we put in(well beyond what GM recommended) the more bottom end we had. Never had a problem with knocking on 90-91 octane.

4. With the current timing, this thing is all torque. I would not be suprised to see around 450 ft-lbs which is well beyond what was expected. The TB still doesn't breath/fuel over around 5700rpms, but it is hard to keep tires from spinning when the throttle blades are sticky. Maybe my favorite part about TBI...24 mpg Highway.

5. It was a (insert that name you call your mother-in-law). I made the mistake of putting everything on and then tuning. Tune with the stock TB on your setup before adding large amounts of air or fuel.

 

This is what I'm talking about! A lot of different people running a lot of different combos and proving that they can work. I'm getting ready to build another 350 and combos like this make me think about trying a T.B.I. set up myself.

 

1. What components (T.B.I. unit, cam, heads, ect.) are you using in your
application?
2. What problems did you encounter and how did you overcome them?
3. What's your best E.T. to date?
4. How's your driveability (Awesome/Pretty Good/Good/Not So Good/Sucks)?
5. How difficult was it to get your tune for your application?

Well i sold my car, but i did build it
1. mods are in my sig, zz4 cam FTW
2. problems were not enough fuel pressure at first, then when i pushed it up it was better
3. no ET's unfortunately but it was fun to drive and i would hang with lt1s
4. driveability was great, around town wasn't bad at all even with the mismatched gears (273 sucks) and highway was good, gas mileage wasnt bad cant complain ~14-16mpg city, 18-22mpg highway all depends how hard i was gettin on it
5. tune wasnt that hard with idle and part throttle, WOT/pump shot was a bitch at first w/ the RPM having huge manifold volume, WOT an issue that i was still tweaking, if i had a WB02 it would have been a lot easier, i never got to finish

 

Combo A.)
1.)1983 G20 305 shortblock, 9.5:1, self ported 601 HO heads (1.84/1.50 valves, 53cc chambers, 224/160 CFM), Federal Mogul CS1014R cam(204/214 @ .050, .423/.446, 114* LSA, 106 ICL), Holley Projection intake, Ultimate TBI moded front pull van TBI, 1991 305 Van 1227747 ECM, 61 lb/hr injectors, Extremefi Vacuum compensated adjustable pressure regulator (20 PSI @ WOT, 13 PSI @ idle), Flowtech 11500 Headers, Dual 2 1/2" exhaust, no cats, glasspacks.

2.)Getting enough fuel for WOT and not drowning it at idle. VAFPR. Getting a steady idle, it wanted to surge very badly.

3.) 193 RWHP @ 4,800 & 293 RWTQ @ 3,100

4.) 85% of my driving was highway trips at the time, it did AWESOME compared to the Q-Jet I was running prior. 18 MPG @ 75 MPG vs. 12 that the worn out Q-Jet was producing. Slight lope to the idle in town, hesitated a little from a stop with light throttle application. Passed dyno emissions test.

5.) NO computer tuning done (keep in mind this was in 2003)

Combo B.)
1.)1992 G20 350 TBI shortblock, 10.3:1 compression, self ported 601 HO heads (1.84/1.50 Valves, 53 CC chambers, 224/160 CFM), Mellings MTC1 Cam (204/214 @ .050, .422/.444", 112 LSA, 107 ICL), Holley Projection intake manifold, Ultimate TBI moded front pull van TBI, 68 lb/hr injectors @ 15 PSI, "299" ECM from 1992 350 TBI van, Flowtech 11500 Headers, 2 1/2" Duals, Flowmasters

2.)Getting it to idle. Kept tripping Decel Fuel Cut instead of idling due to TOO much vacuum!(23 in/hg @ 650)

3.)227 RWHP @ 4,300 & 338 RWTQ @ 2,700

4.)Ran much like combo A, got slightly worse Highway MPG, but had alot more torque off-idle.

5.) No computer tuning done

Combo C.)
1.)1992 G20 350 TBI shortblock, 10.3:1 compression, self ported 601 HO heads (1.84/1.50 Valves, 53 CC chambers, 224/160 CFM), 1993 LT1 Roller Cam (202/207 @ .050, .450/.460, 116 LSA, 112 ICL), Holley Projection intake manifold, Ultimate TBI moded front pull van TBI, 68 lb/hr injectors @ 17 PSI, "299" ECM from 1992 350 TBI van, Flowtech 11500 Headers, 2 1/2" Duals, Flowmasters

2.)Ran very well until it detonated and melted through a piston

3.)255 RWHP @ 4,600 & 365 RWTQ @ 3,200

4.)Ran well, got decent MPG, but the high compression ratio combined with the tiny roller cam gave it too high a Dynamic Compression Ratio, resulting in meltdown

5.)No computer tuning

Combo D.)
1.)1992 G20 350 TBI shortblock, 9.3:1 compression, self ported 193 Swirl Ports (1.94/1.50 Valves, 68 CC chambers, 224/216 CFM), 1993 LT1 Roller Cam (202/207 @ .050, .450/.460, 116 LSA, 112 ICL), Stock 1992 G20 Van TBI intake manifold, Ultimate TBI moded front pull van TBI, 68 lb/hr injectors @ 17 PSI (later 80 lb/hr), "299" ECM from 1992 350 TBI van, Flowtech 11500 Headers, 3" Duals w/ H-pipe, Flowmasters

2.)This combo was awesome and made great power. Had very good TQ and AWESOME throttle response. Would literally spin the 255/70/R15s until I got off the gas.

3.)It pulled a 5,500 lbs G20 Van with 3.08 gears and a 2,000 RPM converter to these times, into a 20 MPH headwind. It had more in it, but after much abuse I broke the cast crank in it.
60' = 2.55s
1/8 ET= 9.853
1/8 MPH= 77
1/4 ET= 15.6s
1/4 MPH 87.6

279 RWHP @ 4,900 & 342 RWTQ @ 3,400

4.)Getting enough fuel and breaking the crank

5.)Very easy to tune, once I got enough fuel. This is where I learned to tune WOT fuel, then go back and do part throttle/idle stuff.

Then I had the 312 that worked its way up to 301 RWHP.

Finally I am now with a 350 TBI that is making 218 RWHP/ 339 RWTQ from the stock long block.

I've got details of about 20 more, but not the time to post them.

 

stock tbi, stock heads, l98 cam, intake manifold, 3" ypipe, high flow cat, dynomax cat-back, 3.42s

nothing so far

15.2 @ 93mph

really needs a tune, idle can be funny sometimes and it runs rich

i havent tuned it, it could use it but not really needed per-say

 

More good combos! Especially fast355. Man that was a lot of combos!

 

1. see sig.
2. surging idle at first. needed more fuel and that is much better. OL is better than CL. AE was difficult without WB02. again more fuel was needed and AE is pretty decent now. EBL on the way. need to find an ECU for prominator.
3. on dyno 224 RWHP with old cam and xram. car is SOP much faster and no loss of TQ with new cam. intake change was a vast improvement over XRAM.
4. drivability could be better but i drive it everywhere daily so cant be too bad.
5. 70-90 corrections in . bin and more to come.
----------
sig.

previous crossfire vette. 350 cid, xram, 2.0 TB's, 454 injectors, edel rpm aluminum 64 cc heads, crame 2040 cam 210/216 @.05, crane roller rockers, ceramic hedman 1 5/8 headers, dual exhaust/crossover, hooker aero chambers, 7747. Innovative WB.
CHANGES COMPLETED 10/13/2004:
7.4L TB on Holley TBI manifold(Projection), Summit AC with K & N, Aeromotive FP reg, Comp Cams 224/230 @.05 114 LSA, Innovative input of tps/rpm/map data.
09/2005 fresh paint(red of course)

 

see my sig.

 

I've seen a lot of 350's being used, but I think Ronny has the biggest cam so far. If yours matches his or bigger and I forgot, please excuse me. I'm still amazed with the amount of combos being used. Especially some of the camshafts. According to Chevy High Performance, the T.B.I. couldn't work with a cam over 212 duration @ .050. I wonder what they'd say if they saw some of the cams being used here,lol.

 

The cam in my 312 TBI was big as well I ran a L82 knock off from Mellings (224/224 @ .50, 291/287 @ .006, .450/.461, 115 LSA, 114 ICL, 4* advanced). I then put a roller cam into it that was smaller, made more HP, more TQ, got better fuel mileage, and in general ran much stronger.

CraneCams

214/222 @ .050, 276/284 @ .004, .488/.509 w/1.5:1 (I had 1.6:1s on top of that), 112 LSA, 106 ICL

As far as Chevy High Performance, they need to get modern. I laughed when Car Craft said NO MORE than 206 @ .050 on the intake of a 350 TBI was possible.

 

They wouldn't like mine which is a 230 230 with 112 sep 480 lift with 1.6 rockers. The funny thing is it runs with very, very little loop at all. If i pulled up next to a stock camaro no one would even suspect that anythings been done to the motor. The only time that you can tell it has a somewhat big cam in it is when it is cold and the computer is in open loop. When i put it in i really thought that it wasen't even going to run.

 

More big cams. I guess maybe the car magazine writer's should come and check out all the car sites before they open their mouth. But then again, maybe they like having to pull their foot out of their mouth. I have to admit, a lot of you guys are building T.B.I. powered cars that far surpassed what I thought they would be capable of.

 

350 LO5 crate motor
50mm throttle body from XtremeFI.com w/ stock 350 injectors @ 18psi
Edelbrock TBI intake bored out to 2"
Crane Cam: 204/214 .429/.452 116 LSA + Comp Magnum 1.6 RR's
Trick Flow 23* aluminum heads
Hooker 2055's headers, 3" Magnaflow cat, 3" Dynomax cat-back
Torsen Posi w/ 3.23 gears
1850 stall


There was one problem from an incorrect oil pump driveshaft being installed on the crate motor. Tuning it was the biggest part, especially since I had no desire to learn and still haven't. I just paid people to do it. Became really locked in after getting it done on a dyno with a wideband O2 hooked up.

No E.T. yet. But I did get 262 RWHP @ 4700-5700 and 365 RWTQ at 2400

Pretty good. After getting it dynoed tuned, it became alot better. Not as smooth as I would like it.

A pain. It ran fine with just a mail order from TBIchips.com, but the full potential of it wasn't released until the wideband tune. I still think it could be better personally. I just need someone with more TBI experience doing the burning.

 

Gunny, are the Trick Flow heads the same as the 305 heads from Trick Flow? If they are, I'd be really interested in what you run in the 1/4. A couple of people have been talking about them lately, and I have to admit, my curiosity is piqued. Nice set up too!

 

They're the 350 heads since I have a 350.

 

1. 350, vortec shortblock/cam, stock 193's, stock intake/TBI off 305, 55lb injectors, Hooker headers, 3" cat back, 3" catco cat, 3:23 posi, TPI fuel pump, stock regulator made adjustable.

2. Right now, ITs running rich. No computer work done. And traction in nonexistant.

3. Best is 14.8 at 90mph, 1.96 60', even though i have a 2100 stall converter and 245's, i had to launch at 1000rpm, and was still getting tire spin.

4. Driveability is very good. way more torque than the 305. But still a bit of a rough idle at times. And no power above 4000rpm.

5. Im in the process of researching tuning right now. THats next. Then maybe port the 601's i have on the shelf, and get a better cam.

 

1. What components (T.B.I. unit, cam, heads, ect.) are you using in your
application?
2. What problems did you encounter and how did you overcome them?
3. What's your best E.T. to date?
4. How's your driveability (Awesome/Pretty Good/Good/Not So Good/Sucks)?
5. How difficult was it to get your tune for your application?


1. 1991 Camaro RS , 700R4
355 Vortec long block
Hypereutectic flat top pistons (10:1 compression ratio)
Comp Cams Extreme Energy Camshaft P/N 08-502-8
•Duration at 0.05 Intake – 218 Exhaust – 224
•Gross Valve Lift Intake – 0.495 Exhaust – 0.503
•Lobe Separation - 112
Crane Valve Spring Retainer Kit – P/N 10309-1
Pacesetter Mid Tube Headers and Y Pipe
GM 454 Throttle Body Injection – P/N 17087021, injectors GM#17084304*RPD (80 lb/hr) @16psi
GM TBI to Quadrajet Adaptor Spacer – 1.75 inch - P/N 10045799
GM Vortec aluminum intake manifold P/N 12496820
EGR and A.I.R (need to pass smog test)

2. Computer tune - still in process

3. has not been run yet

4. Currently driveability is good and getting better as tune improves. Trans shifts way to slow under wot. Will need to address this soon

5. Tune has been very difficult with this setup. Initially idle was difficult, currently idle set at 800rpm, quite smooth with some lope. AE has been a major issue, but finally getting it under control, seems like huge tps pumpshot and small map pumpshot is the best way to go.

 

I agree with the huge TPS pump shot and smaller MAP shot, smoothed out my drivability.


I have a 88 Formula with these mods...

TBI unit from a 90 4.3L S-10

Chrome Edelbrock air cleaner

Crane solid lifter camshaft...254/254 duration @ .050", .485 lift, 114 lobe sep

1227747 ECM with a modified ASDU bin

Stock Auto o/d with raised shift points

Open 3.42:1 rear end