Updated in 2021 see post #62

The car has 209,000 miles on it. Original 305, never had the valve covers off. Orginal 700R4. My friends made fun and said the RS would never make a 100 horsepower.

The RS has a DynoMax catback, fan straight wired,160 degree thermostat and Mobile 1. The car is an automatic.

The peak horsepower was 133
The peak torque was 220

Dyno operator said the car need plug wires. Someone else suggested an open element air filter w/K&N.

Should I do this and retest the RS?

The dyno is only 10 miles from where I live, but it's $50 for roughly 20 minutes and 3 or 4 pulls.

One other person at the dyno that day had a 92RS when it had been dyno'd at 20,000 miles it made 142 horsepower and I'm not sure about the torque.

Comments appreciated.

 

the open element will put you up to 140


these are weak weak motors

 

i dont think an open element with throw you all the way up to 140 considering the milage difference, but it will help.

i wouldnt pay 50 bucks just to see your hp go up >10 hp.

------------------
Gestapo?

ENGINE SPECS:
305 TBI,Open Element,K&N 14x3,Hypertech Stage I,160 Deg. Thermostat,454 GM TBI

STEREO SPECS:
JVC Kalmeleon kdlx3,Infinity Kappa 2way 6x9's,PPI 4x6 Coaxials,PPI PC2400 AMP @ 2ohm
DEI Studio 12" 4ohm DVC,Custom Box:Exactly 1 Cubic Foot

 

all I've done on my car is in my sig. the open element makes a HUGE differance.

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
ICQ 82881207

 

a good tune up with new plugs and wires is always a good idea. an open element and playing with the timing a bit (advance about 4-6 degrees) will kick it up a little.
the exhaust is a huge place to make gains on our cars as well as an intake.
you may just want to look through the "ultimate tbi" tech articles and do all the free stuff.

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.390 @ 94.99mph
Edlebrock TES Headers, Cat Eliminator Pipe, Borla Adjustable Cat Back,Marche Pulleys, HyperTech Chip,Transgo Shift Kit,B&M Convertor(2000stall), 36mm Front 25mm Rear Sway Bars, Eibach Pro Kit Springs, Bilstein Shocks and Struts, Steve Spohn Rear Rig( all rod ends), Poly Front Bushings, Baer Track Kit Front Brakes W/ Baer Disc Rears, 17x9 4th Gen SS Wheels, Ported TB, Edlebrock Performer TBI Intake, Performer Heads, 1.6 Roller Tipped Rockers

 

I like the ideal of doing stuff to my LO3, however it does have 209,000 miles on it.

Is it actually realistic to think I can wring 150 rear wheel horsepower out of this thing, given it's advanced age?

I know that's only 17 horsepower more, with the stock heads and cam, could I expect to get 17 more hp?

Would 1.6 roller rockers help?

Thanks

 

Yeah, rockers would help, but do u really want to play around and a lot of spend money on a engine that puts out hp like that? If I was you, go ahead and do ultimate tbi mods, do exaust+headers,maybe some pulleys,open element,a spacer, but don't get to deep into your engine where u will have to be pulling lots of dough out. If you want it to keep running like it is but with a little more hp and torque don't mess with the inards of that thing. Its just not worth the trouble. Look at my mods. I had fun doing these and I have 105,000 miles on my car and that thing pulls WAY better than it did. Maybe you should look into buying a crate engine of some sort for down the road when the engine finally does die. These 305's last a long time.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html

 

I did the open element air filter and it was HUGE. ABsolutly the best bang for the buck.
Before I did the open element, I but on a new catco cat (2 1/2 ) and a flowmaster muffler (2 1/2 inch) Thoses mods made little difference. But when I did the open element Air filter, It was a different car. You can't go wrong for the money!!...bob

------------------
91 camaro RS convert
t-5
open element air cleaner
TBI spacer
Flowmaster muffler

 

OK, I think with this one it would actually be valid to suggest swapping to a new motor, givin the milage. 17hp, is possible, but only noticable for a short time. My meaning is that 150 at the rear wheels is gona get you just happy enough, to get you excited and want more, when your motor might just be starting to say "I want to retire, please no more horsepower".

 

one thing to keep in mind is that if you get roller rockers for your car you can only use them on another self aligning engine. i.e. 87+ so if you think you are getting an older style then dont get them. Otherwise you can put your new 1.6 rockers right onto your next engine.

 

Well these are valid points.

Sounds like I should:

Do:
tune up and wires and coil
open air clean

Consider:
Ultimate TBI mods
New fuel injectors (car has both the orignal injectores)
Roller rockers

Does a 305 TBI (even with some mods)really need headers? Wouldn't I really need to be making at least 200hp for header to really be worth while?

I have a 72 vette that needs $$$ so I can't get a new engine anytime soon.

 

Cheapest 1.6 self aligning roller rockers I've found are $191

 

well, consider this, jester has a 220k mile 305 in his RS and he slapped an L98 cam, ported heads, headers, true dual exhaust, weiand stealth, and a holley 750? carburetor and the car is pretty damn quick
the compression test on it is low, 90 psi

and you see a little bit of oil smoke on throttle tip in

these motors are tough

I wouldnt go so far as to do all that but definately go for some headers and rear end gears, possibly an intake manifold
those three mods should really make the car more lively. Then sell the vette and get a brutal 406 with afr 220's, victor single plane etc and go man go

 

I had mine dynoed at 159 HP w/ 137K miles on it and in 100 degree weather. The only mods done were a Jet Stage II chip, Flowmaster cat-back, and a K&N open element.

If you want to keep the L03, GMGoodwrench sells complete engines minus the intake and TBI for $1500.

Jason

 

just checked out sdpc. I wonder why there is an $80 differacne between the truck L03 and the car L03. different cam maybe?

------------------
-Tas
'89 Formula WS6

305, TBI, auto, 14x3 chrome flat based open element with K&N, functional Formula hood, cross-flow Flowmaster, '99z28 rear pipes and tips....

Super GRK_Taz World
EFI & Intake Options
AOL IM: superGRtaz
ICQ 82881207

 

I think the Vortec 350 (330 hp longblock) is an awesome buy.....dollar for dollar you cant beat it....you can even get the COMPLETE engine...from pan...to distributor....to carb (plop a holley 670 tbi on there)....makse some serious power for a decent price......but hell...I'm gunna take my lo3 to the max before I drop a 350 in.....shaved vortec heads....modified torker II intake.....I have headers...just need the y-pipe made up....it'll run....Oh yeah....and the open element made a HUGE sotp difference

Phil-

 

bad thing is that in strict emissions states like cali that the Vortec might not pass. no EGR. and the vortec specific intake might not pass visual inspection. I was contemplating having them drilled for the TBI intake and putting that on evey 2 years but there is a risk in doing that. like it not working

 

89BlwnRs, why on earth would u want to get another LO3?

 

Ouch... your 305 is hurtin' pretty bad. My dad's 92 RS with 195k on the clock put out 150 HP and 200 TQ. We added a stock exhaust from an IROC, and at 205k it put out 158 HP and 220 TQ. Is yours an automatic? This is a 5-speed car. No mods to the engine, except synthetic oil and a K&N filter, which do very very little.

------------------
1991 Camaro Z28
5.7L 5-Speed (originally 305)
13.25 @ 107.18 MPH
Southern California
Member: SoCal 3rd Gen F-Bodies
Webmaster: SoCal F-Bodies
-=ICON Motorsports=-

 

damn those are some pretty sad #s considering i have seen HP TV dyno that 90 firebird 305 tbi 5 spd at 169 rwhp and over 250 ft/lbs of torque. Dont remember what the mileage was, i think it was close to 100,000 miles. But to be completly honest i would tune that engine up (plugs wires cap rotor ect....) and figure out what u want from the car. Than to get u by on that tired motor i would choose a set of gears to go with ur new motor be it a 305 or 350.

BTW hey whats wrong with a new LO3?? i know thats whats going back in my car if i ever change them up. Call me old fasion but i try to kep my car how it came.

------------------
1989 pontiac firebird
bright red extior(just repainted)
grey interior
5 spd
305 TBI (stock)
WS.6 formula wheels
3.73 posi rear end
-------------------------
system: 2 10" MTX thunder 2000 in a Professionally done custom bandpass box.
Blaupunkt CD player
Blaupunkt 4x6 and 6x9
600 watt rockford fosgate 4.6 amp

future mods Borla exahaust maybe???

 

I thought comp cams makes a magnum 1.6 self aligning roller rocker, and its a lot less than 190 dollars. They will make a difference, particularly if you put headers and open up the exhaust some.

 

If you can find them for less than $191 let us know. we dont have pushrod guideplates so we dont have cheap rocker options. mayber we should get a GP going on those rockers.

 

Sad numbers?

I don't think they were all that bad all things considered. Sure there are lot's of TBI cars that make more hp. However for an automatic, I think the hp is down a little but the torque is pretty decent.

Most automatic transmission cars are considered to lose about 20% to the drive line. Manual's lose about 15%. Car's with IRS will lose about 2% more.

My car had 133 horsepower and 220 torque at the rear wheels.

166hp at flywheel * .80 = 132.8 hp at rear wheels.

With the cat-back and so on the cars down about 10hp from it's rating.

275 torque at flywheel * .80 = 220 torqe at rear wheels.

That 20 foot pounds better than what it's rated at and seems good for thermo, cat-back and Mobile 1.

I appreacitate the input. Really sounds like I need to check the wires, plugs and coil among a few other things.

Pablo, sounds like your a 3rd Gen'er for life!!!

I do appreciate the input everyone.

 

one other thing to consider is a new timing chain. they do stretch over time which retards the cam timing and costs you power. they are pretty cheap and esy enough to do in your driveway with instructions from any chiltons type book.

lata
tim

------------------
91 Camaro RS-LO3,Auto.
14.390 @ 94.99mph
Edlebrock TES Headers, Cat Eliminator Pipe, Borla Adjustable Cat Back,Marche Pulleys, HyperTech Chip,Transgo Shift Kit,B&M Convertor(2000stall), 36mm Front 25mm Rear Sway Bars, Eibach Pro Kit Springs, Bilstein Shocks and Struts, Steve Spohn Rear Rig( all rod ends), Poly Front Bushings, Baer Track Kit Front Brakes W/ Baer Disc Rears, 17x9 4th Gen SS Wheels, Ported TB, Edlebrock Performer TBI Intake, Performer Heads, 1.6 Roller Tipped Rockers

 

ya i guesws ur right, its not all that bad. I didnt look at it other than rwhp. The #s are pretty decent. Like i said tune it up and take a trip down to the dyno......let us know how it turns out if u do

 

The stock Horsepower on it was 170 and and 255 lbs of torque so the noumbers were alright it just has a lot of miles

 

Those numbers are still pathetic. Many 4 cylinders and almost all 6's make 200+ HP these days. My mostly stock '99 Grand Prix GTP has 300hp/320tq and runs low 14's! Keep thinking the LO3 has potential.

I'll see you at the track.

------------------
'92 RS, ZZ4 10:1 350, Edelbrock 6085 heads, Crane 208/214 467/482 cam, GM/LT4 1.6 true roller rockers, Holley Projection TBI intake, Holley 670 TBI, SLP/Jet-Hot 1-5/8" headers, Catco 3" cat, Flowmaster 3" catback, Hughes 2500 stall converter, stock 700R4, Auburn Pro posi w/3.42, 17x9" SS rims w/BFG tires, Medium Quasar Blue w/white SS stripes, 48,000 miles....

 

Scott, how much power did 4 cyls and 6 cyls make in 88-92? How much power did a Grand Prix make in 92? I doubt it was even 200 HP.

 

wow then the L98 Vette must have been a big piece of crap because the Honda S2000 has 240HP.

 

In a way, Scott has a point. But like Kevin said, in the 80's nothing had great power like today. The highest hp you could get from a thirdgen was I think 245hp (L98) I think that was the highest. Now a days engineers are finding ways to push out big hp numbers and still pass emmsions. Back in the 80's it was tuff since the government just hit the auto industry with these emmision laws. So they had to experiment. So in a way, our low hp engines were the birth of the high powerd LT1's LS1's and now LS6's of today. But I have a feeling if Gore is elected that he is going to make emmisions even stricter and the hp numbers will fall again. Lets hope that doesn't happen.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html

 

I certainly see your point, guys. I'm just saying that the LO3 being a small block V8 is seriously under powered no matter what year it was produced. I know, if you go back even further to the mid-late 70's you'll find more pathetic numbers from V8s.

Remember the 5.0 Mustangs of the same vintage as our 3rd gens? A measly 302 putting the hurt to everything that GM could toss at it!

I'm just embarassed for GM for putting out a V8 with such low power, that's all. And believe me, I've had 1 LG4 IROC and 3 LO3 RS's, and I've tweaked them all. You really have to do some major modifications just to get these engines to produce the same power as other STOCK V8s...Why waste your time?

 

Scott, we have had this discussion before with the TBI Supercharger thread. Trust me, u don't want to get into it. I was saying the same thing u are with cams and heads. Just don't worry about it. If they want to do it, let them. They will learn from their mistakes. Thats how we learn.

------------------
Eric Natzke
91 Firebird 305 TBI (ZZ4 summer of "01")
ASCD Ram Air Hood-3" custom exaust-Flowmaster 80 Series-No Cat-Edelbrock TES Headers (coated)-March Pulleys-TBI Spacer-K&N Open ELement-TransGo Shift Kit-B&M Supercooler 28,000 GVW-Hypertech Thermomaster-160 Stat-3:42 GM Gears-Auburn Posi Unit-Edlebrock Strut Tower Brace-MSD Superconducters-Accel Cap & Rotor
-Rapidfire Plugs-265/50/R15 Tires-Emmison's all Gone

http://members.aol.com/j007golden/91firebird.html

 

hello!

 

It had to be underpowered for a v8. It was one of the lowest on the GM v8 totum[sp] pole. First was the L98 Then the LB9 then the L05 then the LO3. But the more they choke it the bigger gains and satisfaction for us trying to unchoke it. Look at pablo. he is happy as a clam beating the unbeatable.

 

What did he beat?

 

ummm ok??? u wanna tell me when the GTP started produceing 300hp and 83 ft/lbs of torque?????? outside of ur fantacy land the real gtp has 240 hp and 280 ft/lbs of torque STOCK.

If they want to do it, let them. They will learn from their mistakes. Thats how we learn.

hey i would hardly say building up an L03 is a mistake. I mena its all about what u want from ur car. Me personally i want my car to be like the day it rolled off the assembly line. (thats y i only use dealer parts) I just want a nice 305 low 14 second 305. Now reguardless of what it takes i am keeping a 305. Thats what the car came with. It also wouldnt be right becouse i have a 5 spd and no 350 was available in a 5 spd. If u guys plan to build the hell out of ur motor for 13s and 12s thats ur choice but i want my car more like the factory had it. After all they did design the thing not me

 

produceing 300hp and 83 ft/lbs of torque??????

i mean 320 ft/lbs

 

You are going to have to use more than dealership parts on that 305 to get it into LOW 14's Mikey. And I didn't mean building up the 305 is a mistake, just building it up where they change the heads,cam,intake, etc. is a mistake to me. Cause they are spending WAY to much money and time on something that could be acheived and have plenty of more room to do more stuff with a different engine. Thats all. 305tbi is a great learning engine but I would never try beefing it up to make it run 13's and 12's. To much money involved and time, you can save time and money with a 350 or higher and that would run 13's and u would still have LOTS of room for improvment.

[This message has been edited by 91Bird305 (edited November 02, 2000).]

 

I don't understand why some folks seem to get as much satisfaction out bashing LO3's as the rest of us get out driving, mantaining and hot rodding them. Maybe they were stuck driving AMC products into the 90's or something. The main point in car crafting is to take what you've got and get the most you can out of it.

Way back in spring of 1990, Car and Driver said something like $20,000 looks and styling for half the price. The article was pretty enticing because I ran out and bought a new RS. Where I was, when a came to crusing the 3rd Gen cars ruled and the late model 3rd Gen's were the cream of the crop. So what my RS had a LO3 that only made 170hp, there were very few cars over the 200hp mark. The LO3 seems to outlast just about any other engines from that time period.

I think it's pretty amazing an 11 year LO3 with 209,000 miles can still almost make it's rated power, exceed it's rated torque, still be a dependable daily driver and we can still talk about doing mods to add power!

 

the fact that you are asking the question proves that your story is fabricated
duh
come up with better stuff next time motley

as for "unbeatable"
5.0 mustangs are hardly unbeatable and their motors dont put out all that much.

I say mod whatever is within your budget
if you can only afford heads and cam right nowthen do that
thats how i did it, I couldnt afford a 350 so i went this route


Pablo

 

eric i agree. making a 305 run 12s is not the smartest idea when it would be easier on the motor and the budget if u just went 350. I totally understand that. When i said dealership parts i didnt mean performance parts, i meant replacement parts. I was just making an example on how i like to keep my car origional. I do want that origionality but i want a little extra. So i figure a nice set of heads cam and exahaust and of course with proper tuning (chip, tbi unit ect...) i shouldnt have to much of a problem hitting low 14s or better.


I don't understand why some folks seem to get as much satisfaction out bashing LO3's as the rest of us get out driving, mantaining and hot rodding them. Maybe they were stuck driving AMC products into the 90's or something. The main point in car crafting is to take what you've got and get the most you can out of it.
Way back in spring of 1990, Car and Driver said something like $20,000 looks and styling for half the price. The article was pretty enticing because I ran out and bought a new RS. Where I was, when a came to crusing the 3rd Gen cars ruled and the late model 3rd Gen's were the cream of the crop. So what my RS had a LO3 that only made 170hp, there were very few cars over the 200hp mark. The LO3 seems to outlast just about any other engines from that time period.

I think it's pretty amazing an 11 year LO3 with 209,000 miles can still almost make it's rated power, exceed it's rated torque, still be a dependable daily driver and we can still talk about doing mods to add power!


Right on brotha

 

These LO3's do last a long time though thats for sure. Hey Pablo, who are u talking to in your last post? I got lost.

 

onefine8t9,

My post said my "mostly stock" GTP puts out 300hp/320tq and runs low 14's, and it does. The stock supercharged V6 puts out 240hp/280tq. I added a smaller supercharger pulley (which increases the boost from 8.5lbs to 11lbs), cold air induction and a few other secret tweaks to arrive at the new power numbers. My GTP is nothing compared to some of the ones out there. Many guys are running 12s with their GTPs. Don't forget that this is a 3800lb, front wheel drive, soft suspension "family sedan"!!

The GTP specs were just for comparison against our small block V8. If you guys want more info on the "Grand National of the '90s", visit gp-owners.com or grandprix.net. You will be suprised and impressed at the things these cars can do with no internal engine modifications.

 

Eric, please make an effort to disguise your "attitude" a little bit better in the future. If you want to insult me by all means go ahead. I dont sit well with people who beat around the bush, atleast be a man about it.

 

A friend of mine had a 85 TA. He wanted a new car, and his dad said he would buy him one when the TA died. So he drained all the oil, and ran the car in second gear all the way home. He live about 45 min away, at 80-100 km/h. The car pulled in the driveway. These are tough cars. He still has the car (he got his new car though so he dont drive it).

 

Whatever Pablo, all I asked is to who u were talking to, cause I didn't know.

 

ummmm ok ur prix puts out 300hp and 320 ft/lbs of torque. Now the LSI only puts out 20 more hp than that. So does that mean its crap becouse there is a 6 cyl thats compareable to that?

 

Mike he is talking about his GTP. Its modded and thats the horsepower rating he is giving you. Not the stock rating. Just thought I would clear things up for the both of ya.

 

onefine8t9,

You completely missed my point anyway. The LS1 is a fine engine that makes mass power and I'd love to have one in my RS.

I'm guessing that you are having trouble believing that a 6 cylinder has that much power. I made no reference to the LS1 or any engine other than the LO3...

No need for everyone to get freaked out about this simple subject. Enjoy your weekend.

 

BTW, I posted this on the B-body side today, so I'll share here too.

Cheap power parts!

I just ordered (and recieved) a set of ProForm 1.5 FULL roller rockers
(self-aligning) from Propower Performance Parts of Ft. Lauderdale, FL.
for the paltry sum of 189.00. This is almost 100.00 less than the comparable GMPP parts. Although these aren't Cranes, the finish and
quality are decent, the casting is good and the machining and bearings are decent quality assemblies as well. And I think its the same price for the 1.6's as well.

You can reach my salesman (Mike) at 954-491-6988

Hope this helps some of you guys that are cash strapped for mods out there!

DISCLAIMER: I get nothing, yadda, yadda, don't know the guy, etc., etc..

------------------
Kelly 'GhoSSt' Rosato
1996 Impala SS, 383 LT4 (14.65 up here, 13.24 lower)
1984 Firebird, +.060 350 (Vortech Heads, HOT Cam, and schtuff)
1993 Caprice, 5.7 TBI (stock . . . FOR NOW)

"And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? Revenge. The villany you
teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the
instruction."

Shylock in Act III, Scene I of 'Merchant of Venice' by William Shakespeare