A friend of mine told me about this article he read on the interent. It said something along the lines of swithching the some hoses on the smog pump. Basically making it where the hot exhaust gases to flow to the cat, which won't be there, and the cool air that was going to the cat to flow into the engine, making a SMALL supercharging effect that supposedly you can feel when the EGR is on. Does anyone think this will work? How would I go about figuring which hoses to switch?
Brady aka Brody

 

It's an original idea. Although, I don't think it would be worth the effort. That little pump isn't all that efficient as far as making pressure, plus you would be trying to pressurize more space (i.e.- the intake, cylondar bores etc), than the little area in the cat and the manifolds. The air pump is more for adding oxygen on a 2 stage cat to heat the exhaust gasses hotter to help burn emmisions, same as in the manifolds.
I would like to read the article if you could find it. Remember not everything thats on the internet was posted by people who know what they are doing.

 

Yeah the article said "inefficient supercharging effect" I'll try to get the address and post immediately if I can find it.

 

The smog pump doesn't have enough power to pressurize air into a supercharge effect.

------------------
, Jon (350 TBI! I'll list mods when I have the time)

 

sorry, but your friend needs to check into rehab ASAP.

 

I've been thinking about this topic alot latley and doing research. It's been suggestedd that the smog pump can produce 30-40psi. Now, that aside you have to consider volume. Hyptheticly... what if you properly size pipe and do proper rerouting of the smog pump lines into a newly made sheetmetal snorkel on the intake/throttebody ,with the MAF sensor still intsalled in the original location. Ram air the smog pump like a cold air kit... pipe it to port into the new snorkel and in front of the MAF... then ram air the air filter canistor in the same manner...and you should create a boosting ventrilo effect commonly found with air nozzels found in most shops. This should create some boost ontop of the cold air induction if not at least insure that the ram air setup is at optimum and still getting a little more air in lower driving speeds and even at a stop...and worth the time. A/C compressors are also being used to perform this small boost. 3-5 psi boost would be better than nothing and monumentally cheaper than buying a paxton super charger. Thoughts?

 

Why don't you just strap a hair dryer on the motor???

It won't work.....a typicall boost level of a centrifical supercharger is 4 to 9 pounds of boost...and look how much more larger a supercharger is than a air pump...even a 4 cyl. turbo does not flow enough volume to make power....this will not work what so ever.....it probably woudn't even start due to lack of air....the piston that's inside an air pump is TINY........will NOT even be close to working....
Good general idea though.....lol

 

Just curious but I think what I mentioned was a hypethetical. Also I understand where your coming from in comparison to what real super chargers and turbos do. But in regards to it not running due to lack of air is just "wrong" and maybe shows you didn't really think about the setup I suggested. I'm not saying that the air pump would provide any great increase in boost but would aid ram air techniclly speaking in the least along with the ventrilo effect increasing at higher air volumes at speed with the ram air, an would be easy to do. In my research if properly done a A/C compressor can provide some boost in the same manner. Also the 30-40 psi that the smog pump could produce has been talked about on these forums. That doesn't translate into 30-40 psi in +boost. But 1-3 also suggested on these forums under this topic. I understand how this may come across. Without testing I'm 100% postive that testing varient setups like this will produce postitive results no matter how small.

 

Let think about this for a second.....the size of the the piston in the compressor, and the depth it travel's (stroke), is TINY.....yes it produces psi, but only in a small hose....if you were to try to run it into an intake hose, I doubt there would be any measurable pressure in a 3 1/2 hose. Also figure you need 500cfm to run the car in stock trim...

Think this way........you're talkiing about a SIGNLE piston the size of a quarter and a stroke of a finger legnth, that is going to supply 'ram air' as you call it to EIGHT pistons with a 4.00 inch cross-section, and a lot deeper stroke......not possible...not enough VOLUME.
In your theory you would be better off taking the compressed air that one of the engine's regular pistons makes, and piping it back into the motor for the rest to use.
I'm an engineer....it doesn't work that way. Not trying to bash...but it doesn't even make sense.....that's like trying to fly a full size cessna airplane with a model engine....not the same.

 

Also I've seen many people try this....even trying to use those electric superchargers....but to no avail....it takes a great deal of force to produce enough air flow and/or boost to make and engine produce more power....the only way your going to get more power by forcing air IS turbo or supercharger...and the right size one.....if you were to take a stock type turbo, off like a subaru, designed for 4 cylinders...and put it on my chevy 350 in my sig below....it would NOT be enough turbo volume to give me more power...there is not enough air flow...and that's with a large turbo.
you would probably lose power but my guess is with either a AC or air pump compressor, you could not start the car.

Do you want me to post the math on what air volume that it come out of that pump?? I can do that, I bet you it's under 50cfm,
to put in perspective, I have a decent power motor, with a 58mm throttle body, that's rated at 1000 dry cubic feet per minute.....

not bashing just saying lol

 

Well I'm familier with those forumulas. So there won't be a need for that. I still think your picturing some thing wrong, so the mild hidden bashing with numbers backing just looks "lol" to me as well and coming from and engineer that should be able to understand and use reading comphrehension during my earlier posts. Not being mean at all just think your jumping to conclusions without taking in what was posted...just like to add, I can back down and admit to being wrong. But I have proven newb ego talking engineers wrong at my company in the past.. and it's not to take claim on anything regarding my "smarts" or experience. Now I'm being fair in telling you that I understand hydraulics /pneumatics along with most technical things since I have trained in them. I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SMOG PUMP BECOMING A TRANSFORMER AND TURNING INTO A SUPER CHARGER. I'm suggesting and thinking hypethetical about creating a ventrilo effect to aid the ram air. I see in no way logicly speaking how this could have any negative affect. Now I am taking a defensive tone only because you know all this stuff and have knowledge to back it up. But you're taking somthing wrong from the posts and ... well I'm not understanding why your not getting it? No offense. I am merly doing researh on this and feel that some boost will be seen no matter how small, because of the nature of the setup, and most importantly the ventrilo effect.

 

okay, then I'm mis-understanding air....can you explain differently what you're doing....are you talking about making a system using negative air pressure???

 

Heh, I'm not trying to get out my calculator, and I'm waitng for you to go "OHH". With respect to this discussion. Yeah I'll try to explain better. I'm still curious on your thoughts on it none the less as far as what it could do in aiding the ram air. Got to go to work rin 15 mins so I'll check back later this evening. Thanks for the replies and discussion, will continue later.

 

I re-read the top post of yours....and there is still, not enough air volume coming out to preform any gains in power.....ram air need to be run at high speeds by itself even to work, like 70mph or more on a straight shot into the throttle body.....a blast of compressed air, although under strong psi, has no volume to it....
maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I don't understand.....but would be interested in seeing a model or working unit. again not bashing, just think it's a waste of time.....good luck though...

 

Isent the EGR turned off aniways in PE (power enrichment)?

 

Correct....

 

The smog pump, is it a vane pump or piston pump?. I'm going to work on some figures and think about the available volume just doing a normal ram air setup(smog setup out of the equation for a bit). I don't know the size of the crank pully and the size of the smog pump to have a good ratio to work with on how many turns the smog pump would finish a complete cycle at a given rpm. I'll plug some numbers and see what could happen on paper for fun.

My thoughts are to see if it's possible to add to the volume of a typical ram air setup going into a intake snorkel by using the smog pump driven by the engine at X rpm. First objective is to think about air nozzles commonly used to blow debree and other things under shop tables. Some nozzels can be found with having small holes drilled into the main nozzel of the air gun. These holes if properly sized and positioned before the actual orifice exit hole of the air nozzle gun will create more volume, created by the exiting air drawing more air through the holes as it passes through. This is called the ventrilo effect. It happens because of a vacuum effect of the rushing air through the nozzel drawing more air in through the properly placed "pre holes" as it rushes through the nozzel.

Taking that thought process, hole pattern, size and placement are all factors at acheiveing the optimum effect of causing a ventrilo. Using those thoughts I'm trying to think of a way to use the smog pump that has an inlet ducted to the front of a vehicle in a ram air manner with it's output directed into the main intake snorkel. The driving of the pump by the engine at X rpm ,along with it's own ram air induction, should help take the load off the engine driving the pump, by the vaccuum that may/may not be over come at X rpm/driving speed and the air forced in by the ram air. Either way, thinking that incoming air from the ram setup should help the smog pump to output Y volume of air at R rpm and P psi without having a negative draw zone or until it reaches a null zone. (srry random thought pouring in..let me get back on track)

The after thoughts is rather or not, doing ram air into the main intake snorkel at a given volume based on engine rpm and speed the vehicle is traveling, would allow a properly setup smog pump in the manner above to supply enough air to allow the passing main snorkel air to pull what extra volume from the smog pump source as if it were a properly placed hole inlet...variable ventrilo based on engine rpm? If it did help pull the air from the smog pump, and is being driven faster and faster at ranging rpms of the engine driving it. What could the results be? If the smog pump's pully was reduced in diameter by half, or even by 3/4 to further increase revolutions and cfm deivery rate, is there enough to think about? It should in this case without starting off with pully size changes, have next to no load on the engine driving it with ram air involved, or the possible ventrilo effect aiding in sucking air from the pump. The setup should be directly related depending on how much the engine is sucking the incoming air delivered.

Lets plug some fake numbers in. Say, 50cfm per sec from smog pump at 500 rpm with vehicle sitting parked. If 500cfm was being pulled in by the engine then would we see 550 cfm adding the pump? Probably not. But the volume from the pump would be available and likewise sucked into the main flow through the intake snorkle. So in theory (guessing) there would be a scenario where a ventrilo could occur and in some degree the available volume to be used will increase. Now at 4000rpm cruising at 90mph and climbing what would the numbers be? Will the engine be trying to pull 800cfm and be getting that "easier" or even forced due to the intake snorkel being ram aired.. will the smog pump be outputing (not doing any math) 400cfm to be available as well? I would suspect that those numbers might be interesting but closer look at the pump and revolutions at a given rpm need to be examined. It's probably much much smaller in actual cfm delivery.

So without any real numbers to plug, and any velocity numbers or formulas to throw into the mix I'm speculating. But these thoughts as interceptor said may be foolish. I just think if all the factors were in place, that the resluts would show more readily available air for consumption of the engine by x amount if a ventrilo accured by using the smog pump delivery air as an outside source much like the air being sucked into an air nozzel utlilizing the extra holes to create the ventrilo principle. I would love to have an air flow meter and a before and after picture of "with and without" I'm sure you would register somthing of difference even at idle of the engine. Or, would it be a none measurable deal always masking or hiding the results, if any, involveing the effort the engine has to work to pull in air by this method. A dyno test could show a difference if any I suppose. But... air velocity of ram air is hard to replicate on a dyno precisley I would think. I've seen it on tv it seems trying to replicate that... egh all this talk over a smog pump.

 

I totally understand what you trying to do......the only thing I'm saying is that a small displacement pump will not produce enough volume to do anything to the motor horsepower wise....I see where your coming from...if pump make 50 cfm, putting it into the motor would add 50 cfm to the motor....not really, but I understand where your are coming from. I have a way that you can test it perhaps without building everything....could you build a protype using a air compressor nozzle?? put car on dyno....and used the compressed air to measure any difference in power.
I have done a similar thing with ram air effect....there has been great discussion over if ram air actuall works or not. So what did we do....we hooked car to dyno....and got a hold of some weird high powered blower (large one) and ran car with and without extra 'simulated' winds.....the car did build extra power....at 75mph winds it made 5 extra horse.....
Still would like to see yours work though....if it does, I'll eat my words and put it on my car.....

 

You could try one of those 12 volt compressors that you inflate tires with!
Jeeez, you guys need to come back down to earth and get a grip....

 

lol, compressed air tank was my idea......if you read my post, I was trying to explain why this wouldn't work.....but nobody wants to listen

 

I was joking about the compressor, anyone with half a brain should know that it ain't gonna work, I know a guy who tried the compressed air thing for months, everyone told him it wouldn't work, some people have to learn the hard way. This thread is stupid and I knew i should of passed it the second I read the title... My mistake I guess...

 

I guess I wasn't clear enough with the sarcasim......I KNOW THAT THIS WON'T WORK.....there is not a doubt in my mind that this won't work.....I was being sarcastic.....This is one of stupid ideas that people try and I get a kick out of how they have it all figured out. I applaud them for trying.....but that's it.....it's funny.
I was explaining that I'm an engineer, and the sheer mechanics of it are NOT possible, not even close, just a waste of time completly......but hey, what the hell do I know.....
just on here for kicks and giggles....
but please know that I am being SARCASTIC about last post I did.....thanks

 

dp

 

RiV.....also....I did the calculations on the cubic feet per minute of how much air the air pump would roughly put out.....let's say it has a 1 inch bore and a 1 inch stroke on the pump motor.....that's .785 cubic inches......so let's just call it one cubic inch.....lets say 5000rpm out of the pump.....that turns into a theoretical cubic feet per minute flow of 1.44675.
Let's just say it's a 5 cubic inch motor turning 8500 rpm......that's still only 12.297 theoretical cubic feet per minute of air flow......
So there is your math....even under pressure the volume is not there..
not trying to be a jerk by posting numbers but don't wanna see you waste time and money on it......sorry

 

Now what if (and this is a BIG what if) you were to fab up some sort of bracket to where you could mount a turbo in place of the smog pump and put a pulley on the shaft that spins the turbine? Would that do anything beneficial?

....Sorry if this is completely stupid, my knowledge is in metal fabricating, not power adders.

 

Well at least I got the point across that I was trying to create a ventrilo effect.. to aid in increasing volume by one means or another. To the previous poster j91, yeah it sounds dum, but real genius borders insanity(even though yes it was dum). Some times you can think of stupid things trying to explore possibilties that could lead to greater things. On a not so stupid note, so you realize I'm not below average on common sense, or riding on a short yellow school bus with aid to get on and off. All this was based on a quick hypethetical regarding the use of the smog pump(yes it looks small but I didn't know the numbers). Not saying you don't, or directing this to you but I get laid... and have also designed a hydraulic cylinder at a technical college that was;roughly 50-75% less weight than traditional hydraulic cylinders, had a nearly unbendable rod shaft due to the design, and most of all had the same rod speed AND force in both directions without flow control. I'm sure inteceptor as an engineer could respect what all is involved to achieve those things on paper. It all started about it not being possible to have the same rod speed in both directions due to the differences in surface area and volume on the piston side/rod side without flow control. So I designed one. For those that understand the fundementals of hydraulics/pneumatics and how many ways you can come up with a cylinder not being able to do this..you'll realize how ticked my teacher was when I had to show him how. I talked about patents to my teacher jokeing how it would serve purpose to aeronautics(nasa) and why...and my teacher(electrical engineer...covering Hydraulics and technical electronics) resigned from school a week after showing him my design. I think I'm Fk'n to late to patent it? go figure I would suspect a "one up for him". However, this does not rule out that I can tie my shoes properly apperently over this smog pump lol. Bla bla bla. I also drew up prints on making a power frame(yes before GI joe was ever a trailer) (suit that could encompase a human and allow for human control to develope into advanced magnification of strenghs/speed ect. eg. lift great weight with only normal human input strength-"can't get somthing from nothing " "can't get energy withoug costing another form of energy "are all thoughts needed to develope somthing like that which I did...and stopped when I saw that the military had been working on one since about 44 years ago. (was their design better than mine? like to see it)which was powerd by an EG electric mtr. I lifted up a friend at work with a portion of my design principles using a pneumatic setup after he said it was stupid and not possible talking about hydraulic bottle jacks in reference...He was trying to talk me into making him a suit( I could see the hidden crime fighter coming out in him behind his stuiped glare). Yes the smog pump was stuipid in FULL AGREEMENT.. but the pulley's, gears, plc, rod's, and special pneumatic linkage lines I came up with for the power suite says that the military is on a short yellow school bus and that I can have merit on most of my thoughts.

Thanks for the numbers interceptor. I would have threw up and smoked a cigerette for wasting my life..just for the time pushing the calculator buttons after seeing those results hehe.

I'm intersted in your dyno scenario. ...Started thinking about ram air induction feeding anything less than aftermarket or custom intake snorkel(and throttlebody). Finding the proper size (sweet spot) for making an aluminum intake(hard piped snorkel with fins)cold air inlet, thats water cooled by another electic pump(almost chilled, with heat exchanger.. and why not make the air as cool as you can if you can) into the new costum intake snorkle should be a number plugger as well(are 58mm throttle bodys still acting like the lips on a mouth being puckerd together while sucking in comes to mind...unless that is what is required to maintain vacuum. Knowing that my rubber snorkel gets shrunk pretty bad from my recent new heads and runners to the engine, making it want to breathe in harder(more). I'm sure there is a cut off point in allowing the engine to pull in too much air, and you can't just get a huge throttle body without loosing all your intake vacuum. But why pull in air through puckerd lips when you can open your mouth wide open. Well, for the simple reason as the engine will only pull in what it is allowed so you make every part accomedate that. Check the difference in effort by sucking air in by making a small ...argh hit me, got to get the air out of the engine just as fast. Stoping there as this is a whole other feat.

Having all these upgrades for more air delivery, and then having a small orifice at the throttle body/entire length of the snorkel that can reduce in ID and to the air filter canistor. Without care in loosing intake vacuum.. I mean if you could get an electric pump for your brakes ect. Why wouldn't you. I'm sure figureing all the flow rate a intake would have.. I got to go to bed, just got done rereading this .. and wow how pshycotic you must think I am. Seriously and jokeing aside. What are stock 350 tpi engines pulling in on air demand? I'm really going to make a water cooled intake snorkle thats ram aired,made entirely of aluminum except for the connection to the throttle body, use my airconditioner coils which I'm not using for A/C atm for a heat exchanger. Hopefullly I won't be dumping in condenstation(without water flow regulating) I want a head start on figuring up some stuff on dimensions?

 

You pretty much described a centrifical supercharger....lol.....good thinkin' though.

 

would this work? do any thing? i have a 87 3.8 grand national turbo laying around thats still good could i do this.

 

Just for anyone who may be interested in this "ventrilo effect" that the OP is going on about, the correct term is "venturi effect."

Also, someone was referring to the smog pump as a piston-type pump. It is a vane-type. I highly doubt it can produce the claimed 30-40psi, mostly given it's relatively low RPM, and the nature of the design; tolerances, sealing of vanes to housing, not designed for pressurized application (beyond what ever exhaust back pressure is), etc...

If you want to get an idea of the smog pump's flow characteristics/pressure boosting abilities just unhook the pipe from the back and feel the air flow, or if it will fit, put a balloon on the end of the pipe and see if it will even inflate that...

 

Think of the smog pump as a fan, not a compressor. It ingests air at 1 atm and pumps air out at 1 atm. As mentioned above, it just pumps fresh air into the exhaust to aid in the catylitic converters chemistry. A compressor used on an IC engine (turbo or supercharger) takes air in at 1 atm but puts it out at a much higher pressure. The engine is force fed air rather than the normal vacuum effect of a non boosted IC engine.

Given this, if you introduced the output of the smog pump into the intake, it would just contribute to the ambient air brought in by the normal air intake. The intake duct would be taking in air from the smog pump as well as through the normal air intake. However, both at 1 atm of pressure; ie. no boost. Only if the smog pump was a compressor, and you blocked off the ambient air intake supply, would you create boost. But the smog pump is not a compressor, and if it were, it would be too small for the engine to run on soley.

 

would it work?

 

Centrifugal superchargers have a sort of gear system on them that allows the impeller to spin much faster than the pulley. So, if you did a turbo by simply taking off the hot side and running a pulley on the shaft you would get no where near what you need as far as impeller speeds.

Here's a cross section of a centrifugal super from howstuffworks.com (note the gear system):

 

Holy old thread!

One thing people forget is how much power and volume is needed for supercharging/turbocharging. You need to take around 700-1000 CFM of air and compress it an additional atmosphere or more to make it work. Thats not just a couple of horsepower to compress that air, either. Ive heard things like 50-60 HP quoted from manufacturers on the power consumed by a supercharger for a modest 400 WHP engine. A significant ammount of the engines power goes to drive a super or turbocharger.

 

Dang, you're right. I didn't even notice that...

 

so it would not work?

 

No. A turbo is designed to spin using exhaust gasses as its energy source. They spin at thousands of RPM's. If you somehow managed to run it via pulley you wouldn't be able to spin it as fast and you would lose out on everything it has to offer. If you want a pulley driven power added, a centrafugal supercharger is the way to go.

 

If so what would be the % of fuel mileage lost at steady cruise (65MPH)? 40 HP is 10%. Would one expect a 10% loss in mileage? But is it correct to use 400 HP to compare or output in HP at cruise RPM's of 1800? I supect loss of mileage would be in excess of 10%.

 

Without a doubt there is a little loss, still have front drag on the accessories. However, the power losses he refers to are likely at WOT, at peak power, and at peak blower speed. Parasitic loss from the engery used to turn the blower isn't linear so at idle and cruise the power loss and effect of fuel economy is probably negligable. I used to get 25mpg on the highway in my 2003 Cobra. For comparison, Mach 1's with basically the same motor, sans the blower, would get basically identical mileage (not a true one to one comparison given tranny and rear end differences but close enough).

 

I've been thinking about this topic alot latley and doing research. It's been suggestedd that the smog pump can produce 30-40psi. Now, that aside you have to consider volume. Hyptheticly... what if you properly size pipe and do proper rerouting of the smog pump lines into a newly made sheetmetal snorkel on the intake/throttebody ,with the MAF sensor still intsalled in the original location. Ram air the smog pump like a cold air kit... pipe it to port into the new snorkel and in front of the MAF... then ram air the air filter canistor in the same manner...and you should create a boosting ventrilo effect commonly found with air nozzels found in most shops. This should create some boost ontop of the cold air induction if not at least insure that the ram air setup is at optimum and still getting a little more air in lower driving speeds and even at a stop...and worth the time. A/C compressors are also being used to perform this small boost. 3-5 psi boost would be better than nothing and monumentally cheaper than buying a paxton super charger. Thoughts?



Lol!!!!! O man, thats right now I remember why I still get on here. I needed that.

 

I'll tell you somthing though. When I was 15 me and some of my buddies actually took an old breather and rerouted that tiny little 3/4 inch rubber tube coming from the smog pump into the top of it then we duck taped it up really tight. We also tried basically the exact same thing with a 150mph leaf blower, some home made parts from an air compressor, and once we even injected oxygen straight from a bottle into the intake.