Hey all....

I have been putzing around here for a long time. I have been a huge fan of TBI for a long long time as well. I have a 1993 Caprice LTZ that I have had for longer then I'd like to admit. I have talked alot about what I hope to do...what I want to do...what I wished I could do....none of which has ever materialized due to lack of knowledge or lack of funds/resources. Well...the final nail in the coffin has been pounded in for the old Caprice. The stock L05 is on its last legs and is inching closer and closer to its final resting place. I have been eating up radiators for literally a few years now and it would seem that a bad head gasket or a cracked head is to blame. After all the time that has passed....guys just keep telling me that this is the only thing that could be chewing up radiators like this. I also recently found out that I have a cracked drivers side exhaust manifold bolt that is causing a mean exhaust leak.

So...put it this way....this engine isn't worth fixing...I need an upgrade plan and there isn't a better TBI forum on the face of the planet that I can ask this question to:

What is the best engine combo for a car of this size and dimension?

Seeing that this isn't a small car...I want the engine to be up to moving a car of this proportion. I have always wanted a 383...for the longest time. But I have read that 350's can be built up to snuff also but with less TQ. I have also looked into a 355 at one time and even have a Vortech supercharger to throw at this as well....but was told that the supercharger probably isn't the best thing for a car as big as a Caprice because it'll have to work really hard to acheive the proper power levels...so then I stuck with a 383 idea.

The main issue is money. Its always been money....if I had more money....I probably would've had a new engine a long time ago. So....not only will the engine need to perform...but it will have to be on a budget and be built well enough to not fail. This will be a street engine....it may see strip runs but it will not be built for serious strip duty. I would think that it should be built to withstand more power then it will ultimately acheive. For instance...it would be nice if the shortblock could handle 5-600 hp but ultimately only produce 330hp at the crank. For the record... I have read Fast's (genius) Budget 350 thread probably 100 times and wouldn't rule out a Vortec conversion but things like Vortec intakes and external EGR...etc...etc...leave me a bit hesitant because of compatability issues for headers. Caprices have engine compartment restrictions that don't allow just any headers to be used....and a few people I have read about doing Vortec swaps run into big problems trying to get headers that fit in Caprices. I might just be stuck with stock type centerbolts or at best World SR Torqers.

I already have the Edlebrock TBI Intake and a Vortech Supercharger TBI system...sure I could use this stuff because I already have it but if its not worth using then I will just sell it on Ebay.

As far as power number go...I guess 330-400fwhp would be fine. I'd invest more into the short block in case the combination would change later so....to start out with less and work towards more later would be O.K. too. At first I may need to keep the parts cost down to the point where power would be affected till later. Things like stock exhaust manifolds or stock type heads might be used.

Anyway....if you guys could just chime in with some thoughts or advice I would appreciate it a lot. To me there are so many options here and I have NEVER been able to decide what would be the most cost effective suitable solution.

I hope you will take my request seriously. In time....I will have to take the right path. Seeing how much success guys like TBI-Max have had... I know there are guys here that can provide the right kind of information.

Thanks to all for any input,

JBLTZ

 

if i had to build my 91 over again it would be a stroker smallblock. The benefit of the extra cubes for a given combination is well worth it. if you tuned it yourself,because of the higher average torque, there is no reason that you couldn't get better fuel economy than a 350. learn from Blazes' sucesses and his mistakes. you cant go wrong. of course going from a totally worn out POS to a new stock engine, feels like night and day. Where are you located. I have a good rebuildable 9c1 lo5 if your close enough. Also the modifications for the vortec swap are a piece of cake. I did it on another car i'll have to find pics. it was a vortec 350 with shorties, external egr, the biggest pain in the but was that caprice distributors are larger at their base than any other tbi distributors. Any competent machine shop can bore it out for you.
welding the egr adapter was very easy. I made sure header fit chassis, mocked up on the engine stand, drilled and welded nut adapter onto header.

 

Hey Rocko, Thanks for the reply. Its cool that a Caprice guy replied...you obviously have the same ideals as far as your car goes! Who is this "Blazes'"
guy you speak of? It sounds like we might be related...

Dude...I would do anything but your right...that's why I wanted a 383...the excess TQ would be very nice. Seeing that the B-Body is so big....it needs that extra TQ to get the big beast up and moving. I spent a lot of time looking at rotating assemblies and Eagle makes a nice 1 pc. rear main seal kit that guys seem to like a lot. I want to stick with a roller cam. I don't think I need a forged set up...unless I top it off with a blower still...which I don't think I will. The extra money involved for forged parts plus more extensive tuning...in the end....I can't see how it would be worth all that.

As far as tuning goes....I do want to get the Flash EBL but the engine builder wants to run the Accel DFI. He's an Accel DFI distributor and install/tuning shop so obviously he has his affiliations. I showed him the EBL and he was actually pretty blown away by it. Cost-wise/functionality-wise...the EBL really shines. He looked at the Heads-Up Display and said he could use it....but he also qouted me a standard built and installed Accel based 383 for $4500.00. I think either system would be good and in the end...the Accel would be a bit more expensive but because of his experience with the DFI system....it would make sense to let him tune on his own turf. A guy I work with just had the same builder put in a 383 DFI in a Camaro and he got it to 425hp and 500+ ftlbs of TQ. But he had long tubes and the Camaro was more aggressive. I could smile myself to sleep at night thinking about those numbers but with gas getting as expensive as it is....I think mine would be a bit more mild to say the least! The kicker is that he even got it to pass out local smog check! Cool huh? This same engine builder built an engine for a Pro Street Camaro that had 600hp and it passed emmissons. So...this guy really does know what's up....too bad he hasn't been able to qoute figure out why I keep eating up radiators. Out of all the years he's been doing cars....he's never seen a car with a condition that my car is showing. I have always asked myself...why did I have to be the special one?

Anyway man...Thanks and feel free to chime in. I need some advice on heads and cam. I was thinking World Sportsman II's. Their only about a 1000 bucks assembled but I would go with some good stockers if the price was right. Like the Vortec's that Max used....I like his whole set up basically...and if his power estimates are right....I would think 360 FWhp would be pretty good for me. I figure if I can make that much on stock parts....that would be good enough. I would make sure the shortblock was stout and then maybe trade up to some better heads/cam/intake later on after it got boring again. LOL

Thanks man!

J Blaze

 

OK...I found this in an article by David Vizard....the SBC guru....he seems to talk about 383 pretty often throughout so I thought it would be valuable to post up....

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...nks/index.html

10 Rules For Successful Stroker Builds

1. Select as long a rod as possible to minimize frictional losses from side loading and cut the engine's mechanical noise.

2. Select the lightest reciprocating components for the bottom end.

3. Use an effective crank damper.

4. Use an oil pan that keeps the oil away from the bottom end rotating assembly as entrainment will cost big power and may lead to failure.

5. Go for as high a compression ratio as possible as it will offset the engine's reduced mechanical efficiency due to its greater piston friction.6. Use cylinder heads with valves as large as possible as there are a lot more cubes to feed.

7. Be sure to tighten up the cam's Lobe Centerline Angle (LCA) from whatever was optimum before by about 1 degree for every 16 cubic inches of capacity increase.

8. Increase valve lift by at least the same proportion as the increase in displacement.

9. Make sure the induction system has enough flow capability to handle the extra inches.

10. Try to keep the induction system cool as this makes more difference with a stretched engine.

 

I meant Tbimax. i said blaze but i was thinking myself in a circle



http://www.jegs.com/i/GM%20Performan...00393/10002/-1

the above makes 340 hp at 4700 and 435 torque at 3600, do the vortec swap and install the ebl. all of the points mentioned in your post from vizards info are good for a maximum effort engine, some like 2,3,4,8,9,and 10 apply, but 4,5,and 6 dont just because of tbi and that its a caprice. cam and head swap on top of this motor puts you in reach of 550 hp with tbi later on. Is the engine builder keeping tbi or taking you up to multiport. and where the he!! are you? if youre close i can help.


and an excerpt from another post

Correct, i have the classic with i think one version back of the ostrich. I did LOVE it. With the ostrich i could toy with idle fuel and timing in real time and give the engine what it wants to idles super smoothly. It was modifying the temp adjustments related to fuel that are tough to get my head around. I could get it to idle perfectly at temp but on start up it would be a tiny bit rough. So i got it closer while not to full op temp using the ostrich, and then just turned on Wideband Idle... then i turned on wideband cruise, then I updated my EBL code from RBob to the most recent version and turned on wideband decel enlean. AMAZING! - decel was giving me a pulsation a bit, with wideband decel enlean its like driving a stock car for driveabilty! You would not notice its modified until you hit the gas

so for me, since i have everything running smoothly, i would probably only buy the flash version now to clean up my passenger floor area

flash is obviously an update, trust me, you can live without ostrich - as long as you have a wideband, the ve learn in whatsup and other functionality of EBL get you running smoothly SO FAST that you wont need to be tuning in real time. I did everything the old way back when we were burning chips and putting in zifs because we were swapping chips so often you were bound to break some pins off LOL... EBL is such a gift. And the newest version of WhatsUP is SO F'n fun to watch that you have to remember that your driving so you dont die. hehe.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU RBOB!

 

Build you a fully forged low compression 383 and supercharge it. Run Vortec heads or better.

 

Rocko...

Yeah I was like who is this Blazes guy? LOL....but Yeah....Max's 383 is pretty much the only 383 TBI I have seen so far that really put down good numbers and has the driveabilty too. I mean...if his Desktop estimate is close to 360hp then that would be great....I am sure with tuning he wouldn't have a problem reaching that.

Sorry....I forgot to mention I live in Wisconsin. I know that is a far shot for you to travel.

That 383 HT is pretty bad azz bro. Me thinks it is a bit out of the price range though. I was hoping to stay down around 2500 on the short block and maybe 1000 on the heads. Literally....I would like the whole thing done and installed for 4500 tops....anymore then 5K and I would be killing my wallet since when the time comes....its all going to get loaded up on my credit card minus what ever cash I may have at the time. I will keep driving the Z the way it is until its gives the goat. Truthfully....if at all posiible...I would like the new engine to be built and ready to be put in and not have to have the car down and waiting for it.

As far as TBI....I can see keeping it. I am not so ignorant as some skeptics...I never have been. I have been arguing that TBI could support more than a lot of people claim since before I even really knew any better. With all of Fast creations...as well as many others....I know that it will support a great deal of power. I would love the Accel DFI system....but its cost I think would be prohibitive for me. When I think about all the things that the EBL can do....I think about all the extra money I could spend on other things vs. paying an arm and a leg for an FI system. I think the EBL was such a great creation when I first saw the original....I am glad I didn't buy the original because I think the non-PROM based FLASH version is unreal. When Fast used the MAF mod....I was shocked and then when it had the ability to run a dual TBI....I thought a 383 Dual TBI would be the Holy Grail. TWO TB's would support 500+ but the Offy 360 intake is used on 86 + prior cylinder heads not centerbolts. Plus...I may have to worry about emissions for a while still. I have ben told about re-registering the plates to a county that doesn't have emissions but I would hate to get caught.

I anticipate 330-360fwp would be good for someone on a budget like myself. The added TQ is what I think I would be going after anyway. At least that hp range would be up there with stock LS1 Vettes, Camaros and Trans Am's... AND even some of those dreadful Mustangs.

So did I read your signature correctly? Are you pushing a Big Block? I have an online friend from Germany that put an Olds 403 in his 91....he had to run a vacuum assist because the cam was so lumpy it wouldn't idle AND power all the accessories. He also converted to Carb. You must have put a lot of effort into putting a BB in a B-Body. I have often wondered about that too....like the 454 TBI but the added weight would kill any possible beifits from bolting it in. The engine would have to be worked over pretty good to get past the extra weight....I mean the car already weighs so much...but the BB would have it power advantages to more then make up for that if built right.

JB

 

Fast...I have considered this option. How much Boost do you think the 383 would need to actually utilize the blower though? When I calculated for the 350-355cid....I though 6-8 on a 350 running like 9.0-9.2 to 1 compression ratio. Not too low to make it work hard to build boost but not too high to push the upper limits either. That wouldn't be that radical but it would still be streetable. For the 383...I was thinking 8.5-8.7 to 1 with like maybe 12lbs to make up for the extra cubes? This is where the grey area starts to come in for me. I am not sure of the right ratios vs. boost. I am also concerned about the boosted application would cause driveabilty to be effected on the street. My friend has a Mustang that he had to radically change to make it more streetable. I mean....he had a strip set up for a while and that thing was crazy scary to drive around town...too much pedal and it would slide sideways...which is great to scare old people and little kids but when you can't even put the hammer down a little and wonder if your going to lose it...its a bit too much. He was pusing 15-16 lbs and a huge TB and a huge strip style Trick Flow intake. Off the line....it took a while to build up boost but on the top end....it would just be screaming...he needed to adjust his range and now its down at a level that allows street driving to be more moderate. He can still rip the tires all the way through 3rd gear....

I agree with building a stout bottom end....I mean....why skimp too much....if the future would allow for upgrades/updates that would yeild a greater amount of power....at least the build the bottom end to handle what ever is thrown at it. That being said... I can't see myself ever going more then 400 at the wheels though....sure I would love more but this car will be still driven constantly and a strightline strip car isn't what I am after.

I know you've built a blower engine so...let me know on any considerations. What are your favorite stocker type Vortec's that can be massaged a bit more. I know you are a fan of the 906's right?

JB

 

1. don't get too complicated with this or you'll never see it happen

2. if you do a rebuild on your existing engine, you are at the mercy & expertise of a local builder... and that doesn't always work well... plus you need the car to drive, so you don't have the time to rebuild the engine you have

3. because of item #1 and #2, I'd vote for a crate TBI engine; add the Bcar LT1, or L31 cam, and either stock Vortecs or port the TBI heads. Go with EBL for tuning, so you will learn and control what you need to get the most from what you have. If you stay with TBI heads, you can keep the 91-93 specific Bcar intake manifold. If you go Vortecs, you have to deal with a Vortec-specific manifold and have it welded/machined to accept the Bcar TBI distributor.

4. Keep your present engine on life support while you obtain everything you need for the engine swap.

5. Get the 94-96 (double hump) trans crossmember, and get a 94-96 era tailshaft housing from a junkyard 4L60E so that you can use it on your existing 4L60 so that it mates with the double hump X member. Use a complete 94-96 exhaust with aftermkt mufflers. Have a shop weld the extension onto the pass side frame rail so that you can install the X member when the time arrives. The engine/cam/exh combo above is good for 270-280 genuine fwhp (same as exh modified Bcar LT1), so you are looking at high 14s. I'll come back to this point below.

6. Repeat, get everything you need BEFORE you need it. Sell the supercharger to help buy what you need; the SC is a extra headache you don't need. Get help from the IL-area B and Fcar people who can assist you in the R & R thrash on a weekend planned for the work. Rent a cherry picker, buy all the food & beverages.

7. LATER, after the R&R, and after the learning curve on the tuning... you can always add more tuning, fuel pressure, and cam up to the level of a GM LT4 HOT cam... which would put the car into the high 13s. That plus headers would give mid 13s. Either would be great, but you don't want to start there in a daily driver. IMO....

 

Hey Ken...thanks for the reply...as always your input is always appreciated. Look for my reply in the body of your reply....

As always...thanks.

JB

 

Here's a really great 383 article from a legend:

http://www.gofastnews.com/board/tech...le-budget.html

They are building one of the two 383 mentioned for an 89 truck...which I think was a TBI year.

JBLTZ

 

i'll get pics of the small block vortec i had in the caprice first. Gettiing the big block to fit was easy. It looks like it belonged there. After I finished the vortec small block swap, I pulled it on a whim then pretty much bolted the 496 in. 72 chevelle shorties and i was in buisness. a quick reflash of the 16136965 with the 454 base tune items and it idled very smoothly even with the temporary edelbrock tbi 454 cam. Other things swapped to a stock 454 3/4 truck pump and a hd rail chassis fuel filter for volume and ease of service reasons.When i did the calculations for the fuel flow,hp,weight,how much lower the front of the car sat after full install, and the much broader average torque, it got better economy than the 305 did. The trick was no longer moving the throttle very much to climb hills or pass. Similar driving style of a big truck. cruised at 80 mph at 1800 rpms, later installed the 9c1 dash and pushed it up to 135 once, it had more but that was enough for the situation.

I am not going to argue the milage point with anyone. i have NOTHING to prove to anybody that wants to refute the above statement. I have my before and after data that I spent a considerable amount of time and money to test a theory and thats all there is to it.

If you like, i'll consider selling my vortec manifold already bored for caprice distributor and 2.00 throttle bores to you. That way you can save some money. PM and we'll discuss. I even have a set of shortie headers that have the egr and 02 bungs already added to them with 2 1/2 inch cats you will need a crossmember, and cat back. I have a buddy thats close who might sell his jegs impala dual cat back system to you. There is no reason after a 450 hp 383 is in place that it wont pass emmissions.

Definately follow kdrolts advice on getting forum members from the b body community on board. then just post on both boards your progress. Fast had a VERY good point on dropping a forged 350 assembly in and putting on a s/c, as there is a member here selling a tbi supercharger. If your selective a 383 can be built on a budget, and possibly into the 2500 range for a long block. i drive to South Bend/Goshen,Indiana pretty often.

and concerning the weight of the big block ,it currently makes 470 hp with 520 ft/lbs all before 5000 rpms. and a 700 hp 632 is in the works with titchners "dominator tbi unit" (heh heh i named it first)Keep in mind my car is now a race car, finishing the gutting as we speak and a cage in the next week or so. no more street duty after 7 700r4's (no typo). Th400 in now. 11.2's here i come and i am keeping tbi.

Hey Fast, I sent you a PM

 

I would go with the 383 hands down.
If you get a 3/4 or 1 ton vortec truck block like in Fast's buget build up, it will have a 4 bolt main and a steel crank. If at another time you want to build an engine for the camaro you will have a spare block and a steel crank to put in it.

With that said You should get the EBL now and use it with the stock setup to get used to the tunning end of it.

 

hey john... man its been a long time, i just got your pm, sorry for the late reply. i would say do a 383 for the budget, personally i would have done a 396 now, that the 383 is up and runing.. lol

build the engine with the help of the guys on here, and few on fsc.. wasnt that bad.. but tuning it can become another story..... like said, i wasted time and money on the dyno tune.. when i should have done it myself like i am now.. so please dont make that mistake i did. my diy tuning is tons better than the dyno, and im always messing with it.

sometimes i wish i went big block as well... i havent updated my progress too much, but its alot being done. im getting ready to daily drive my truck again in another month. it really hasnt did much at all since the build, as ive been using my other vehicles, and it really turned into a project, and the budget got forgetten about.

im currently tuning AE/pumpshot and just ordered a wb02 sensor as its a must to have.


here is the last video i made of the stroker... ill update my thread as well

 

Hey Rocko. Yeah post up some pics of the Vortec you had. It would be cool to see.

Sounds like that engine you got is a beast!

I have been told that for my projected goals my 2 bolt will suffice. I will never see over 400-450. Also...some guys have told me that a stout 35 can be built up too but my objection is the lesser TQ.

Cool thanks Rocko.

JB

 

Yup...I like the 383 too...for the TQ alone. I mean....even if the engine only ended up with 330fwhp...the TQ would be near 400 and that would be darn near twice as much as I had STOCK! I suppose that would mean it would move around twice as easy right?

hey you confused me though zip...when you said....

"If at another time you want to build an engine for the camaro you will have a spare block and a steel crank to put in it."


I don't have a Camaro bro...just a Caprice....and a 1982 AMC Concord...but most people would say "That doesn't count for Sh_t...." LOL...I do hope to convert it to TBI though!!!!!!! What can I say...I am a glutten for punishment.... LOL

 

Max...hey man...what's up.

Don't even sweat that PM I sent you...I know you have been busy and you can't spend every waking second on 3rd Gen!

Dude....I am really glad you pulled it out man...I really am. I was pulling for you from the get go. I knew that the 3rd Gen guys would rally you home...there's too many good people around here.

I got a shop that I want to help to the build. They said I can come out and help on the weekends and they would help "learn me" on the EBL. If they build the engine they won't charge for the Dyno (at the wheels). They Dyno (Engine stand) every engine they build before it gets under the hood. Then they tune it again for drive-ability. They would like me to buy an expensive Accel DFI system but I want to stick with TBI and EBL. They said that they can totally work with EBL....its such a gem.

I want to spend more on the short block and use the same old parts I got....TBI, heads, block and I already have the Edlebrock TBI intake. Then later on...when money permits....then upgrade the top end to squeeze out the last little bit...but that wouldn't even be for years down the road man. I only want something that is about 150hp (A little less would be fine too) more powerful then the 180hp 350 TBI my Cappy started with! I mean I have been putting up with the pathetic perf. of the stock engine for so long...I loath this engine. I pray for it to meet its demise everyday! I just have to wait it out a bit longer....I need to let the funds build up and money has never been good for me. I am just glad that after the last few years I have been able to put a significant dent in my credit card debt I have had to allow this project to move forward when the time comes.

The way it looks with gas though....the prices are getting nuts now....and if they continue to climb like this...I am afraid that any built engine I want will need to hit a good MPG range or from a economical stand point....I'll be buying a 4 banger import for daily commute before I build an engine.

Anyway man...PM when You have time.

Later on...

JB

 

Yep, sounds to me like an LT1 would fit your needs nicely. Add a cam, maybe some heads, and you have the power you want.

 

Naw man...I don't like LT1 engines that much. I have seen guys swap an LT1 into a TBI Caprice and its very difficult. One guy said if he were to do it over...he would never have done an LT1 again. The entire wiring harness needs modification and getting the 1991-1993 Digital Speedo to work with it is a major pain. If you want to run a 4L60E trans instead of the 4L60 (700R4 non-electronic) the 1993 trans. cross member needs to be changed out to the 1994-1996 cross member and there is some modification to the frame to get the trans. member to line up. Its just a big headache.

Instead of LT1....I would go to a whole other version of Fuel injection before I would do that. Even a Ram Jet 350 intake would be easier to use....it would work flawlessly with the EBL and not be Reverse flow cooling like the LT1. Although LT1's are great engines...they are problematic....the 1996's especially...they had like 6 sensors...where as my TBI only has....well...one....LOL. Actually...I took a lot of heat from Imp SS guys so...I have a personal vendetta against the LT1. I have always wanted to build a non-LT1 engine just so I can beat up on Impala SS with LT1 engines. Stock...they only had 260hp...there's guys around here with TBI that are pushing way more than that.

JB

 

Here's some stuff for you.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/en...30-vortec.html

Pm me your email so i can send pics. I have about a dozen high res pics that i took of a car thats bolted together and not running. All the wiring is extended just not hooked up yet. I do have a source for another setup that he'll be generous with. I'll find out how to reduce them for posting.

 

Sent you a few Pms. lets keep this alive. I can make a very generous price offering for most of the hard parts except for the heads